John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Quote (hokie)

That panel missing in Oregon sounds more like a United issue than Boeing.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote (who just want to bash Boeing)

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Quote:

Boeing's motive was profit at any cost!

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote (3DDave)

But for pilot inaction or incorrect action the planes still allowed full control and both crashes were entirely avoidable and needless. The FAA and all airlines said the Emergency AD was sufficient.

Quote (3DDave)

The FAA and all airlines said the Emergency AD was sufficient.

Quote (Alistair)

I presume they meant the type certification being withdrawn between March 2019 and December 2020. Resulting in all 737 MAX aircraft being grounded for 20 months which is the recorded for a type being grounded by its original certifying authority.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote (Their mistakes demonstrate their inadequate training, and the fault of that goes back to Boeing, the FAA and the Airline.)

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote:

It is clear that there was an overriding desire to avoid having to have pilots do type certification training and this coloured any discussions.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote (LittleInch)

They identified this, but decided, based on the ORIGINAL MCAS operation that the likelihood of AoA failure was low but so was the action - initially it was a high speed low angle movement of the trim system. They also decided, like you have done, that existing "memory" procedures would kick in after three seconds and decided this warranted a hazard level below catastrophic. Then the operation of MCAS changed to be a a much higher movement assuming a near stall condition, but AFAIK, they didn't change the evaluation of the fault operation

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Quote:

And what Gilles Primeau wants is the implementation of the usual precautions put on Fly-by-wire aircraft, on which software batteries are active. For example, sensors and monitoring software that would have detected abnormal movements of the cylinder and could potentially have blocked them.

Quote (united pilot council member)

Members of Council 150,
We, your elected ALPA Representatives, feel it is our unfortunate responsibility to draw attention to several very concerning items. These issues have, thus far, been inadequately addressed. They pertain to the very core nature of our chosen profession. Simply put, our Safety Culture is under attack and enough is enough. We can not, in good conscience, continue to wait for our Flight Operations Management team to choose safety over anything else. While their words make for great PR, their actions have not matched those words and have directly led to the unfortunate circumstance in which we presently find ourselves. The “United Next” growth plan has seen a staggering 30% growth in just a few short years. However, that growth has come with strings attached. It has come hand in hand with an orchestrated erosion of our Safety Culture and our profession’s input into it. The FAA has similarly witnessed this and recently stepped in to take substantial action against United Airlines. We have lost the ability to approve new Line Check Pilots, issue type ratings, and have regulator-imposed restrictions on our ability to operate and grow our airline. We will also see an increased FAA presence in our daily operation. We are concerned of the damage already done, and this will be long lasting without an immediate and dramatic course reversal.
Who could’ve seen this coming?
Well, for starters, nearly every pilot. We are the ones who have “skin in the game” on every flight. We are the ones with a pulse on the operation. Our concerns have been continuously brushed aside in favor of activities such as Net Promoter Score modules in CQDL, Pilot Professional Development classes with an emphasis on Company feel-good slides, and APU policing. We’ve had these discussions on our flight decks nearly every trip, along with topics like “forced” Captain upgrades, and the continually decreasing flight experience levels of Captains, including instructors and Line Check Pilots.
Unfathomably, in the midst of our latest issues, a VP of a PR related department chastised one of our Captains via United’s “Bravo” recognition app for providing a safe and successful flight. Why? Because our Captain chose to use his time focusing on his crew, preflight duties and preparing for a safe flight, rather than coming out to the aisles to give his departure announcement. This is, in a nutshell, the root of the issues we face.
While Flight Ops Management has allegedly spoken to the individual to assure that doesn’t happen again, it is indicative of a much larger issue. This individual appeared to be less concerned about the safe operation of a flight, than whether the Captain was contributing to that flight’s NPS score, and likely this individual’s bonus.
When we were made aware of this occurrence, the indignation expressed amongst ourselves was loud and clear. Change is needed. It must come with safety as the primary, if not ONLY focus. Exampled by recent actions, Management seems inclined to continue down their path of removing pilot influence from Flight Operations. No longer do we have the SVP of Flight Ops position. Long serving Chief Pilots are leaving their offices and being replaced with Base Directors or whatever they call them now. Make no mistake, this is a prelude to further removing pilots from managing pilots. Human Resources and Labor Relations have never been as far reaching into pilot disciplinary events as they are today, sometimes bordering on harassment of our pilots.
Where does this leave us? Well, for starters, it leaves us as pilots under more scrutiny than ever before. We all need to reinvest in our Safety Culture and do so with vigor. Encourage each other on the flight decks to STOP when rushed, do your best to limit distractions. WHATEVER IT TAKES.
As professionals, we are great at what we do. None better. However, with new risks, comes a need for increased vigilance on each flight. 99.99% success is simply not good enough. Visitors on the flight deck before departure? Maybe ask the FAs to have them stop up afterwards if you’re not completely finished with your preflight duties. Self evaluate and ask if you’re truly ready to be an LCP or a new CA, or are you just chasing a paycheck? A few weeks at TK and OE will not make you ready if you aren’t already. Communicate with each other openly. Don’t skip probationary reports nor merely check the boxes with “great job”. Insist on good debriefings of appropriate items. These are key elements and tools to defend against risk and maintain a safe operation. Refocus on mentoring not just our new pilots, but each other. We are a half step away from the crisis that has been marching steadily towards us. Its now on our doorstep.
The members of your MEC are engaged with Flight Ops Management. We have provided suggestions for restoring our Safety Culture, though it ultimately remains to be seen if they are finally acted upon. The rapid execution of United Next and its promise of financial windfall has been blindly setting us up for this failure, despite our warnings to them which have previously been brushed aside. Hopefully, the FAA action will open some of their eyes and ears to the pitfalls within the changes they steadfastly pursue. Meanwhile, we all need to manage the new risk environment we operate in. The media, the FAA, and our passengers now have their attention focused upon us, the pilots of United Airlines. Every minor issue will be heavily scrutinized. Stay safe and stay out of the headlines.”

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote:

So they have another accountant as a replacement....

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote:

The NTSB acknowledges that information about the flap position required for
MCAS to activate did not appear in Boeing’s FCOM bulletin and the Federal Aviation
Administration’s airworthiness directive in response to the Lion Air flight 610
accident. However, Boeing provided that information in a multi-operator
message (MOM-MOM-18-0664-01B), which was sent to all “737NG/MAX Customers,
Regional Directors, Regional Managers and Boeing Field Service Bases” on
November 10, 2018 (after the Lion Air accident but before the Ethiopian Airlines
accident). Although the EAIB appended Boeing’s multi-operator message to the final
report, the EAIB failed to mention that the flaps information appeared in that
document; thus, this finding is misleading.

Quote:

We propose that the probable cause in the final report present the following causal factors to fully reflect the
circumstances of this accident:
• uncommanded airplane-nose-down inputs from the MCAS due to erroneous AOA values and
• the flight crew’s inadequate use of manual electric trim and management of thrust to maintain airplane
control.
In addition, we propose that the following contributing factors be included:
• the operator’s failure to ensure that its flight crews were prepared to properly respond to uncommanded
stabilizer trim movement in the manner outlined in Boeing’s flight crew operating manual (FCOM)
bulletin and the FAA’s emergency airworthiness directive (AD) (both issued 4 months before the
accident) and
• the airplane’s impact with a foreign object, which damaged the AOA sensor and caused the erroneous
AOA values.

Quote:

Further, the draft report states that, because the EAIB did not participate in the testing in person,
it cannot comment on the observations. However, Collins invited the EAIB multiple times to
participate in the simulation testing and live demonstration of the testing, but the EAIB did not
accept these invitations.

Quote:

2.3 The EAIB draft report incorrectly states (in several locations) that the MCAS made control of the airplane
“impossible” but neglects to state that, if the crew had manually reduced thrust and appropriately used
the manual electric trim, the airplane would have remained controllable despite uncommanded MCAS
input.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote:

Such a situation can be avoided by design, the airframer’s engineers have determined. To prevent autopilot engagement during the takeoff roll, the Primary Flight Control Computer will be upgraded to inhibit autopilot engagement until six seconds after liftoff. The improvement will be introduced in the second quarter of 2024.

As for the autothrottle, its disconnect logic is being updated. The issues that caused it to disconnect during the takeoff roll will be addressed, Airbus says, falling short of giving a time frame.

Quote:

Safety investigators discovered that the Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System (EICAS) provided a “PITCH TRIM SW1 FAIL” advisory message on the morning of this incident.

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=493c9e9a-3d3b-4e18-adf9-2

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote (tug)

No comments on the new CEO?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote (Alistair Heaton)

… There are discussions about pilot lockouts on some features. And also the use of AI

Quote (NTSB)

Consistent with this philosophy, the NTSB notes that FAA certification guidance in
AC 25.1309-1A that allows manufacturers to assume pilots will respond to failure conditions
appropriately is based, in part, upon the applicant showing that the systems, controls, and
associated monitoring and warnings are designed to minimize crew errors, which could create
additional hazards.16 While Boeing considered the possibility of uncommanded MCAS operation
as part of its functional hazard assessment, it did not evaluate all the potential alerts and indications
that could accompany a failure that also resulted in uncommanded MCAS operation. Therefore,
neither Boeing’s system safety assessment nor its simulator tests evaluated how the combined
effect of alerts and indications might impact pilots’ recognition of which procedure(s) to prioritize
in responding to an unintended MCAS operation caused by an erroneous AOA input.17 The NTSB
is concerned that, if manufacturers assume correct pilot response without comprehensively
examining all possible flight deck alerts and indications that may occur for system and component
failures that contribute to a given hazard, the hazard classification and resulting system design
(including alerts and indications), procedural, and/or training mitigations may not adequately
consider and account for the potential for pilots to take actions that are inconsistent with
manufacturer assumptions.

Thus, the NTSB concludes that the assumptions that Boeing used in its functional hazard
assessment of uncommanded MCAS function for the 737 MAX did not adequately consider and
account for the impact that multiple flight deck alerts and indications could have on pilots’
responses to the hazard. Therefore, the NTSB recommends that the FAA require that Boeing
(1) ensure that system safety assessments for the 737 MAX in which it assumed immediate and
appropriate pilot corrective actions in response to uncommanded flight control inputs, from
systems such as MCAS, consider the effect of all possible flight deck alerts and indications on
pilot recognition and response; and (2) incorporate design enhancements (including flight deck
alerts and indications), pilot procedures, and/or training requirements, where needed, to minimize
the potential for and safety impact of pilot actions that are inconsistent with manufacturer
assumptions.

Further, because FAA guidance allows such assumptions to be made in transport-category
airplane certification analyses without providing applicants with clear direction concerning the
consideration of multiple flight deck alerts and indications in evaluating pilot recognition and
response, the NTSB is concerned that similar assumptions and procedures for their validation may
have also been used in the development of flight control system safety assessments for other
airplanes. Therefore, the NTSB recommends that the FAA require that for all other
US type-certificated transport-category airplanes, manufacturers (1) ensure that system safety
assessments for which they assumed immediate and appropriate pilot corrective actions in
response to uncommanded flight control inputs consider the effect of all possible flight deck alerts
and indications on pilot recognition and response; and (2) incorporate design enhancements
(including flight deck alerts and indications), pilot procedures, and/or training requirements, where
needed, to minimize the potential for and safety impact of pilot actions that are inconsistent with
manufacturer assumptions.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote (It was pointed out that airbus has quite alot of production at spirit but yet doesn't seem to be having QA issues with what's delivered.)

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree.

-- Douglas Hofstadter, Jan 1982

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Quote (So if you paid them less, they would be more careful...)

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree.

-- Douglas Hofstadter, Jan 1982

Quote (Don't forget to recognize often the MBAs also have engineering degrees.)

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree.

-- Douglas Hofstadter, Jan 1982

Quote:

Yes, but do they have 20 years of engineering experience to go with them?

Quote:

Jack Welch made business decisions affecting engineers but I don't think he ever made financial decisions that affected safety when at odds to prescribed/recommended engineering practices.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Quote:

Comment was made relative to the profound changes in culture at Boeing between when it was an engineering organization prior to MD and became something very different post MD.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Quote:

I just hope that they've fully funded their pension program

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Quote:

At least for Boeing Commercial, this statement is COMPLETELY WRONG.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Quote (Oops409)

Defense Contractors frequently under perform in cost, schedule and performance categories. Where as in the Elon Musk World, under performing is not an option.

Quote (Murph9000)

The performance from SpaceX on the NASA's Artemis Missions suggests that he's not really doing better than Boeing, when it comes to aerospace contracts.

Quote (Alistair )

It was a bit silly leaving it in anyway and using a plug.

The weight of them must cost a fortune in fuel over the airframe life.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote:

Boeing doesn't pay for fuel, so they don't care.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Quote (LionelHutz)

How many times have life jackets actually been useful?

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote:

The Securities and Exchange Commission sued him in 2003 on this basis and for his newsletters containing "nothing more than baseless speculation and outright lies"

When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree.

-- Douglas Hofstadter, Jan 1982

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote:

That's my point. These catastrophes are only within the decade.

Quote (Douglas Adams)

I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.”

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!