Dealing With Professional Complaint
Dealing With Professional Complaint
(OP)
In Short: I wrote a site observation report for a site in a state that i'm not licensed in (but my boss is), my boss approved the report, we sent it out to the builder, and the homeowner submitted a complaint that i was practicing engineering without a license. my boss's name and my name are both on the report under "prepared by", no one signed or sealed the report. Anyone have experience with this? Any insight is helpful.
In Long:
I've been a licensed PE in one state for a couple years. At the firm that I used to work at, we did a lot of site observation reports for builders. Essentially when a homeowner complained about quality of work or structural integrity, the builder would call us to check it out and recommend repair specifications or state why we believe things are okay. The firm had 3 engineers - the owner (licensed in many states), my direct boss (licensed in one or two states) and myself (licensed in one state). All of our reports would have "prepared by" with the person who wrote the report as well as the owner's name (who checked the report and approved it).
The company wrote a report in a state that the owner is licensed in, but I am not licensed in. I have seen engineers work on millions of projects in states that they are not licensed in, as long as the principal/boss was licensed and checking the work (and ultimately the one signing and sealing). At no point did I sign or seal any documents for this project (since i'm not licensed in the state). In fact, my boss also did not sign and seal the report (since it was not requested by the municipality, builder, etc.). On the report my boss consistently requested that we put our credentials at the end of our name for the comfort of the client (EIT when we were that, and PE when we passed our exam). So my name had PE at the end of it, since I am a PE. Again, no sign and seal or signature of any sort - just a line that said who wrote the report. Our company name and address was also on the report, which is located in the same state that i'm licensed in.
The homeowner submitted a formal complain to the state licensing board stating that I was practicing engineering without a license. I submitted my formal response as requested but I really thought this would be an open and shut case - which it is not. It has been over a month and the investigation is ongoing.
My question:
Does anyone know if this is normal? I have since left the company and am not working at a firm that writes reports anymore (or does work in states other than what i'm licensed in) - so i'm not worried about future instances. I would appreciate any insight.
In Long:
I've been a licensed PE in one state for a couple years. At the firm that I used to work at, we did a lot of site observation reports for builders. Essentially when a homeowner complained about quality of work or structural integrity, the builder would call us to check it out and recommend repair specifications or state why we believe things are okay. The firm had 3 engineers - the owner (licensed in many states), my direct boss (licensed in one or two states) and myself (licensed in one state). All of our reports would have "prepared by" with the person who wrote the report as well as the owner's name (who checked the report and approved it).
The company wrote a report in a state that the owner is licensed in, but I am not licensed in. I have seen engineers work on millions of projects in states that they are not licensed in, as long as the principal/boss was licensed and checking the work (and ultimately the one signing and sealing). At no point did I sign or seal any documents for this project (since i'm not licensed in the state). In fact, my boss also did not sign and seal the report (since it was not requested by the municipality, builder, etc.). On the report my boss consistently requested that we put our credentials at the end of our name for the comfort of the client (EIT when we were that, and PE when we passed our exam). So my name had PE at the end of it, since I am a PE. Again, no sign and seal or signature of any sort - just a line that said who wrote the report. Our company name and address was also on the report, which is located in the same state that i'm licensed in.
The homeowner submitted a formal complain to the state licensing board stating that I was practicing engineering without a license. I submitted my formal response as requested but I really thought this would be an open and shut case - which it is not. It has been over a month and the investigation is ongoing.
My question:
Does anyone know if this is normal? I have since left the company and am not working at a firm that writes reports anymore (or does work in states other than what i'm licensed in) - so i'm not worried about future instances. I would appreciate any insight.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
So for me, it doesn't matter what the client or AHJ want, my minimum level of service will have my seal on the final document, even if that's just a cover letter for some redlines explaining what work I have done.
It's not enough for the boss to check and sign the report. They must also be in responsible charge. It's a higher level of scrutiny. Did they direct the project? Did they make the key decisions? If no, then it could be said that you were in responsible charge, not your boss.
If your name ever goes on a document with PE on it for a project in a state you're not licensed in, you should at least put a little blurb under your name with "Licensed in PA" or something similar. NSPE: Use Of P.E. Designation—Not Licensed In State In Which Complaint Is Filed
So while you did not intend to practice in a state where you weren't licensed, there's probably enough there to make them wonder and do an actual investigation. And it can come back to bite you - if you're disciplined, you'll be required to report it to your home state where they may also discipline you. Failure to report can result in revocation of your license in most states.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
And you could sue the homeowner for defamation. Seems to be SOP for our previous dear leader.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
The state you practice in (and are licensed in) dictate what and when things get sealed...which is most anything where you are providing engineering services.
This
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Does the state where the project is located require stamped and signed inspection reports for all projects? Your boss, as the PE in responsible charge of the project, should be up to date with the requirements and follow the established guidelines.
It sounds to me like the homeowner read something somewhere and is just trying to make a stink.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
If a technician wrote the report and the PE boss signed it, would there be any question?
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Working in other states, the responsible engineer needs to be licensed in that state. They can have another PE, that is not licensed in that state, conduct all the field work and report back just like a tech or entry level EI would do.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
exactly my point. there are hundreds of companies that have one engineer and like 10 technicians gathering information for them. if my boss (the licensed engineer) is acting as the engineer directly monitoring/checking/overseeing every inch of the project, why would the person writing the word document need to be licensed?
this was my role in the project. I went out to the site, took pictures, showed them to my boss and explained what the pictures were showing/where they were located, then wrote what my boss said to write (he didn't literally dictate to me, but he had me write some stuff based on whatever other report he wanted it to look like, then he adjusted as needed).
to me, it sounds like i'm going to be off the hook, because i essentially was doing the same job as a technician. But at least now i will know - i'm DEFINITELY not performing any work for future (or current) employers that is in another state until they pay to get me licensed in that state haha.
thanks for your help everyone
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
In such a case, does the designer get pursued for practicing without a license?
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
That's the scary part... why would anyone do something like that... maybe thinking of litigation?
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
That should end it, and quickly. Why was the complaint really filed?
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Yes, but also no. Is he doing it for hire? How is he advertising himself? If you're not an engineer, you'd likely need to either be a home inspector or a contractor and appropriately licensed/certified as such (though specific rules are different in different states/cities/etc.).
You were doing it as an engineer, so there needs to be an engineer in responsible charge licensed in that state. If nobody sealed the report, then how do you know who is in responsible charge? You have two peoples' names on it, both claiming to be licensed engineers, but neither "taking credit" for it. Leads to some ambiguity.
The licensing system is, in it's most idealistic sense, intended to ensure safety and public confidence. The average person has no idea how our industry or our profession works. So if they have this letter, and it's either wrong or turned out to cause them a problem in some way (maybe they're selling the house and the buyer's engineer disagrees with what your report says), and they look you up...you don't exist. You're not in the state's system. It looks, to them, like you lied about being an engineer and now they're left with some sort of annoyance (or worse).
Hopefully you left that firm on good terms...if not, they may not be willing to 'fess up about it. Especially if it seems like a lawsuit may be brewing...
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Simple - this has nothing to do with what the supervisor did. It's going to come down to whether or not the OP represented himself (or herself?) as a Professional Engineer licensed in that state by placing the PE designation after his (her?) name on the report but not making it clear that they were not licensed in that state.
Now, the boss not sealing it may be a violation of the regulations...I don't know what state we're talking about here so I'm not sure if it's a hard and fast requirement in this case. But those matters would be completely separate.
This isn't a lawsuit or a criminal proceeding against the company...this is a question of the behavior of a professional with regard to the professional regulations.
(For the record, it sounds like the OP should get off as there was likely no intent...I'm just trying to think through it impartially and as unsympathetically as I can.)
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
From the info given the board shouldn't find you faulty of anything. The report was prepared under the boss' supervision who is licensed in that state, therefore you were not practicing without a license. Failing to seal a document is not practicing without a license. Identifying yourself as a licensed professional in a state in which you are not licensed is not practicing without a license. To prove you guilty the board has to show that you performed engineering activities without a PE's supervision in a state in which you are not personally licensed. If the board claims otherwise then I would take the charge to court, be found not-guilty, sue board members personally and the state for defamation, and demand both board members' positions and licenses be revoked. Its unfortunate but there is a large subset of this profession guilty of guildism who are constantly trying to expand the law through illegal means.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
How many NSPE members have been rung up because they published an article with a PE byline? How about Machine Design? How about a letter to the Op Ed?
Sure, the various Boards can investigate, challenge, and penalize given the various readings of the various States' laws. But, at some point, for crying out loud, what an abuse of a profession.
The only claim that could stand on the facts would be failure to seal. Had it been sealed by the boss, what case is there to make against the author/OP?
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
In the US, each state has its own laws regarding the practice of engineering.
While different, most states laws are generally similar.
In all cases where I've been licensed (27 states) the duty of an engineer to sign and seal an engineering document is specifically dictated by the state's engineering laws.
They define what is engineering and what is not. They all state that ANY engineering document must be signed and sealed by the engineer responsible for the engineering.
Never is the engineer supposed to respond to a client or other person as to when and if they need to seal the document.
In your question above - the situation of a residential project - looking at a foundation say - may not be defined as "ENGINEERING". For example, in Nebraska (one of my states) they define when a residential project requires licensed practice (and thus sealaing) and when an licensed engineer is NOT required - sometimes based on square footage, sometimes based on the actual service provided. Houses greater than 10,000 sf need an engineer....houses smaller don't.
In a lot of cases with houses, no licensed engineer is required and if an engineer is asked to look at it, technically, they don't need to sign/seal something for that....I always do and did anyway.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
For sealing, we took the stance that as the engineer in "responsible charge", even if we weren't responsible for every aspect of that particular project, we were certifying that we had an established process (design checks,qa/qc,etc.) and that those processes were followed. Processes that all the PEs in the company came up with and agreed upon.
I know that's not directly related to your situation, but just thought I'd share. I don't think you were in the wrong at all. I also disagree that the report necessarily constitutes engineering.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
In California, it is; you cannot even publicly say you are a professional engineer if you do not have a valid license in California
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
I've known lots of engineers over the years who didn't like to stamp things unless they absolutely had to, meaning their client made them. The truth is, according to most state rules that I am familiar with, they should basically be stamping everything they do unless it is explicitly marked "preliminary" or some such. They are under the wrong impression that stamping makes them responsible and exposes them to increased liability. I think the situation is actually quite the opposite, as your and your boss's situation illustrate.
There is no way I would put the letters PE next to my name in a state where I am not licensed. Its just inviting scrutiny and possible negative ramifications with your license.
In the grand scheme of things, in my opinion this is minor thing on your part and maybe just a lesson learned to scrutinize your own practices, if for no other reason than self preservation to avoid negative consequences imposed by others out of your own control, whether that be an unhappy individual with an exe to grind or an overzealous state licensing board. Hopefully, things play out favorably for you with the state licensing board.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
I'd be really surprised if the courts upheld that bc its rather unreasonable. I'd also be surprised if they upheld a state board's fine for not sealing work without a complaint from a local regulator. The VA code cited isnt law, its agency code and engineering boards really aren't regulatory, they're administrative/licensing agencies. Politics and the media suggest otherwise but courts do take separation of power pretty seriously stateside. Usually when regulatory abuses happen its bc paying a small fine was cheaper/faster/easier than hiring an attorney for a legal battle, tho occasionally we get a fella like Mats Jarlstrom.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
What if a newer code allows the use of LESS rebar than previous [BC building] codes? But BC and City of Winnipeg wants designs to contain the greater amount of rebar? Engineers need to use the adopted code, as adopted by law or ordinance, and that's that.
The reasoning for specifying a particular edition of a building code is to avoid having to frequently retrain reviewers and inspectors. Frankly, I think engineers should be able to choose the steel or concrete code they prefer to use.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
The reviewers and inspectors should be up with the latest information, too. Else they are not doing their job!
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
To be fair, they're in it to make money, but still it's not like we can take them to task if something doesn't work out because it meets an old standard but not the newest one for that exact reason.
I generally try to design to the most recent standards, and if the City of Winnipeg, or Province of BC wants me to put a reference to an older version on the drawing, so be it.
In response to NOLAscience's point about an older code requiring more reinforcing (or larger members, or what have you) I don't think since the snow load debacle of the NBCC 1995 I've seen a code or standard become less conservative.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
To dik's point, I believe we have a responsibility to be aware of the most recent accepted engineering practice. That includes new consensus research and reference standards updates. We also have a responsibility to understand and know the legally required standards to which we must design buildings. In the US, that's dependent upon the building code adopted by law in the jurisdiction. If there is a conflict, we have to be able to determine the best course of action. If the change is simply to improve efficiency, follow the adopted code. If the change is for safety, follow the newest information (i.e., Southern Pine visually graded lumber design values in 2013).
TL;DR: look at the newest and look at adopted, use the more stringent criteria
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Hopefully, the state board is made up of rational individuals and will settle this quickly and reasonably.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
If the services were defined as "engineering" by the local state board, and the PE wasn't licensed in that state then yes.
If the actions performed are NOT defined as "engineering" by the local state board, then no.
I'm not licensed in Oregon but if I mowed someone's lawn there I wouldn't have a problem.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Is the delay due to scheduling the first discussion, or is it that they are grappling with it?
If the latter, one could appeal to the Board with, "If this isn't a straightforward decision for the Board, perhaps holding a PE to potential penalty may be a stretch. Perhaps this allegation ought to be dismissed and the Board can use it as an opportunity to clarify the code."
May be overly bold, but if that's the essence of it, then it probably warrants it.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Fair points of clarification.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
the closest comparison I have is if a home inspector came out telling you "this truss appears to be broken and an engineer should be consulted" and then disciplining the inspector because he's not a licensed engineer.
the board has a copy of the report so hopefully they actually read it and express some grace.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Texas has a similar policy:
https://pels.texas.gov/nm/pa10_responseletter.pdf
I don't agree with any of it, but under this logic, identifying yourself as a PE in the report, even if the work was done under the direct supervision of a PE in Maine could still result in action against your license.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
However, I would argue that the following are NOT violations of most state's provisions:
1. Having PE after your name on your website.
2. Having "PE (Virginia, Texas, Ohio)" after your name, designating the states in which you are licensed.
3. Having PE after your name on your business card in your pocket while you walk through the state in question.
4. Handing your business card (or e-transferring your contact information) to someone in the state in question if you aren't licensed there - but telling them you are not licensed there.
5. Having a tatoo on your chest with the words "Professional Engineer par excellence" and showing it off in that state
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Something of a chicken and the egg issue...I was approached by a client wanting me to do a design in Maine, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of getting licensed if I wasn't going to get the project. The guy who runs the office is great, though. When I explained it to him and told him the proposal was due that day, he stayed late to see that my application was processed in time so I'd be in their system before I officially provided a proposal.
Didn't get the job, but kudos to the Maine PE licensing office for going above and beyond that day.
RE: Dealing With Professional Complaint
Also - a somewhat similar experience to yours: Some years ago, we were starting up a design/build project with a separate contractor. We were doing all the engineering (the contractor had their own architects) and we flew out to Las Vegas, Nevada, for the kickoff meeting. This was to be a large addition to the US Postal Service facility there near the airport.
We had the meeting and then walked around the building looking at how the addition was to be tied in, issues with the structure, etc. The structural "agent" for the USPS asked me who was going to be the EOR of the project and I said I was. He asked if I was a licensed engineer in the state of Nevada and I told him my application was pending.
Apparently not good enough for this guy so a few weeks later I get a call from the NV board asking who was going to be the EOR...I said I was...they said, well...you can't be as you aren't a licensed PE in the state of Nevada yet.
I answered, "That's true. I have a licensed application pending for NV but only out of general courtesy. You see, this project is federal. Federal funded, on federal property, and not technically "in" the state of Nevada. In other words, the state of Nevada had no jurisdiction.
Silence on the phone for a minute and then, "we'll have to review that and get back to you".
We finished the project and a month or so after we were complete, I get a letter from the board there telling me that they agreed that I hadn't violated any engineering provision and was good to go. Whew!!!