You should at least earn some respect, but that depends on the ethics of the company, which should be a long term benefit for you to know. This won’t be the last time. Just don’t do it.

Absolutely do not use your stamp on anything that you have not been responsible for the creation of. Using your seal on something that is outside your field of expertise is asking for trouble in a big, big way.

Perhaps you need to explain this to whoever is asking you to do this. Go ahead and look up the code of ethics and the regulations pertaining to professional engineering in whichever jurisdiction in which you operate, and use that to support your position.

"What will happen to me", well, none of the rest of us know your employment circumstances. It is entirely possible that if you don't do what someone in a position of authority in the company wants you to do, you're going to end up out of a job, but with your reputation (more-or-less) intact. But if you do it and end up having to defend a charge of incompetence ... you do not want to go there.

Based on what you've typed, I don't see how you can validly seal these.

IF these were within in your expertise, then you might be able to justify reviewing and sealing, and even that is a stretch.

It sounds like you need to educate them on what it means to be in responsible charge. There is an NSPE page describing that.

Thank you all for the advice.

I recently found out that the project in question is based in Canada, and I am a US based engineer only licensed in one state. That should be one of the first things I mention, correct? I cannot stamp something in Canada unless I go through the certification process for international licensure.

How do I handle the pushback from them? I am anticipating they will ask me to learn it and review it, then stamp it.



"It is entirely possible that if you don't do what someone in a position of authority in the company wants you to do, you're going to end up out of a job, but with your reputation (more-or-less) intact. But if you do it and end up having to defend a charge of incompetence ... you do not want to go there."

Isn't this illegal?

Yes, it's illegal. That's why you do not want to go there.

No responsible charge and wrong jurisdiction. Two very valid reasons to say NO!

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

I talked to an old friend of mine, who is near retirement, and a P.E.

He claims that assuming the work was where I was licensed, I should review the project, get up to speed with the standards, and make myself an expert so that I can stamp it. He said that I shouldn't say "no" to my employer because I am an electrical engineer and as long as the subject is electrical engineering I can make myself familiar with it and stamp it. He says that because I don't have the experience with it doesn't mean I can use that as an excuse to not learn it and stamp it. Then again, he has an oldschool mentality.

What do you guys think about that? I feel that this is how my employer would push back, not considering the jurisdiction issue. I am just curious about this, for future reference if it ever happens.

Look up what it means to be in responsible charge.

"Look up what it means to be in responsible charge."

Oh.. that makes sense. So I really can't review something like this since I wasn't involved.

It is certainly possible to get up to speed on a project by reviewing, in great detail, the project files and the design, making changes as needed, etc. and thus take over the role as the engineer in responsible charge. I have done this several times when a colleague quit and their projects were being passed out to other engineers in the company. However, I have also refused a couple projects because they were outside my areas of expertise and there wasn't time or budget available for me to learn the subject in sufficient depth and breadth to give me the "warm fuzzy" that I needed and to properly protect me and the company from errors and omissions.

Just because I am a licensed civil engineer doesn't mean I am competent in all areas of civil engineering or can become competent in a reasonable length of time. In the same way, just because you are a licensed electrical engineer doesn't mean that you are competent in all areas of electrical engineering or can become competent in a reasonable length of time.

Regardless, there is still the jurisdiction hurdle that can't be jumped.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

Is there anything documented about how you are expected to use your PE stamp in your job offer, or even an email leading up to the job offer?

Or did you just assume what you wrote in your first post?

Anything about your isolation from liability? In general, not just this case.

Prior to joining the company, my P.E. was never mentioned.

Shortly after I joined, my manager asked me if I'd be ok with using my PE to stamp drawings. He never mentioned anything about stamping things outside my expertise.

Somehow out of the 75,000 people in our firm I'm the only one in the electrical group with a P.E.. I'm definitely going to have to push back because the way people flaunt it, they seem to think that "hey, we have a P.E. so now we can stamp anything!". The department asking me to stamp right now isn't even my own department. Bunch of sales guys with no engineering background asking for it.

Edit: Found out the guy that was supposed to stamp this stuff was with the company for 20+ years. Can't imagine it's reasonable for me to take over and stamp whatever they needed from him.

This is what they're asking me to do.

Product A needs a test report, but they dont have it.

Product B has test reports, which can be used for product A (they confirm this is true via email).

They need an engineer to sign off on a statement saying the test reports for product B can be used for product A.



Is this something that has regional jurisdiction (since it's not a project, and just a statement, why would jurisdiction matter)? Is this something that even needs review if they are plainly saying via email that product B test reports can be used for product A? I'm wondering if I'm being too paranoid.

Sounds like what they really need is a Notary.

Or a lawyer.

Who is needing the test report to be stamped and why?

"Who is needing the test report to be stamped and why?"

The customer. I'm guessing they need our parts for something in their design and they need an engineer to certify that the test reports are valid for the part they want, since we said they are.

So that's potentially (but not necessarily - you haven't given us enough information - but perhaps you can assess this yourself) what I call a BS reason for wanting a stamp. It isn't in support of a building permit, or construction of something that affects the safety of the public, or for producing a document in which "the government" says shall be stamped. It really should be dealt with by a letter, on company letterhead, signed (plain ordinary signature, not necessarily an engineer's seal) by someone in authority at the company who takes responsibility for what they are saying.

Right? Or not?

Is the "test report" for something that affects the safety of the public if whatever it's for, isn't what you say it is? Does a bridge fall down, does a building collapse, does an airplane fall out of the sky, does the wheel fall off a truck while driving down the motorway, does someone eat or drink something that's going to cause harm?

Or is the consequence merely that the colour of a paint is a wee smidge off, or the water tastes funny but isn't going to kill you or make you sick, or a piece of clothing doesn't last as long as a potential customer hopes that it should, or it leads to a warranty claim because something doesn't do what someone said it would for as long as it ought to?

If it is the former (or if you can't establish whether it's the former or the latter), then you are being asked to do something that it appears that you don't feel you are qualified to do, and you shouldn't do it.

If it is the latter, and you KNOW it's the latter, then it appears that POSSIBLY someone needs to be educated in what sorts of things require an engineering seal to be applied, and what don't need it, and what shouldn't have it. BUT. The rest of us don't have all the information. You're the one who needs to make that assessment.

'Course, we all know that sometimes educating someone can be as effective as talking to the wall. "They just want it." and it's above your pay grade to change their minds. Still ... if it's outside your realm of expertise ... the ultimate answer remains "No. Absolutely not."

I would recommend not signing.

This seems to me to be a risk-transfer mechanism; if the company certifies that the test and results are valid, they assume whatever risk there might be, with you signing, you assume that risk.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

I don't know how the risk is assumed for PEs, but for doctors, even with insurance, there is a personal liability, i.e., the insurance covers personal liability up to a point, but if the judgement is beyond the insurance limits, they come after your personal assets.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Potentially bad assumption, but I would ass-u-me the customer is requesting the stamped report bc they are required to use certified parts by a regulating agency/AHJ.

Quote:

He claims that assuming the work was where I was licensed, I should review the project, get up to speed with the standards, and make myself an expert so that I can stamp it. He said that I shouldn't say "no" to my employer because I am an electrical engineer and as long as the subject is electrical engineering I can make myself familiar with it and stamp it. He says that because I don't have the experience with it doesn't mean I can use that as an excuse to not learn it and stamp it

Going back to undergrad engineering ethics 101, an engineer cannot make themself an expert nor even deem themself fully competent bc we simply do not know what we do not know, and most modern engineering knowledge isnt in the public domain. The established procedure for becoming competent is to work under an expert in a focused niche for several years. Until then I wouldn't dare be the senior engineer signing, stamping, or even internally releasing anything. The very first thing attorneys consider (and often attack) in any lawsuit or trial is your competence.

"Going back to undergrad engineering ethics 101, an engineer cannot make themself an expert nor even deem themself fully competent bc we simply do not know what we do not know, and most modern engineering knowledge isnt in the public domain. The established procedure for becoming competent is to work under an expert in a focused niche for several years. Until then I wouldn't dare be the senior engineer signing, stamping, or even internally releasing anything. The very first thing attorneys consider (and often attack) in any lawsuit or trial is your competence."

This makes a lot of sense. I think this is going to be my response to "well you can read up on it and make yourself comfortable with the material and then be an expert".

Is there anywhere in the code of ethics that says working under an expert for a couple years is what is required to be considered an expert?

Quote (psmpsm)

My company is saying they will lose business if they don't have someone stamp these reports.

Quote (psmpsm)

Prior to joining the company, my P.E. was never mentioned.

Clearly, the company does not have any experience with stamped work product. May want to ask your mgmt is this is a big deal or just a wish list request. If it's a big deal, then request that they pay for an attorney specializing in this arena for consultation, quantify the volume of business hanging in the balance that YOU are the key to, get quotes for the insurance required to cover YOU for the entire legal duration of liability, propose to you a compensation package that rates the risk to you and the bonus business to the company, and then you can contemplate the whole of it.

And again, this is a personal liability; if you have no experience in the testing and whether they did the testing correctly, it's your license and liability on the line, not theirs.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Having raised it, in this forum, you are likely committed to doing the proper thing. You cannot claim ignorance of your actions. I suspect...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Read your state statutes including the penalties for not working within the law. Criminal and civil penalties are hefty in some states, as well they should be.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

Hey, lac, long time no...

Good to know you're still around :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

And remember, your license is yours and yours alone. The state has given you that privilege because of what you accomplished by fulfilling their requirements. The state expects you to control your license per their laws. I use "the state" in a broader sense of government.

In reading the history of some licensure laws, each state government has police power and authority to exercise its police power, which is something I would not want to tangle with. It is one thing to boast about bucking the state but it is something else to do it successfully.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

Thank you, SnTMan. Yup, still alive and kicking. Glad you are, too. So may are still here, which is good to see.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

Welcome back, Pam!

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

I'll add my two cents, but I don't think it will apply in this case.

I look at building components and assemblies that I had no hand in designing or specifying, but I get paid to come up with designs to safely modify them. I perform my due diligence, and by the time it comes to run the calculations, I'm either a subject matter expert in that assembly, or I was close to begin with. So I have no problem sealing plans for modifying legacy structures once I have the engineering worked out cold. Anything less is treating my license like a rag to wipe up someone else's problem.

Does that apply in the case of a new part and a material test report? Probably not entirely, but becoming a subject matter expert on an issue can go a long way. But maybe not all the way, because I - using my simplified analogy - would never sign off on whether an existing beam was 50 ksi steel or not unless I had proof.

Well, I spoke to the person who asked me to sign and he was alright with my response. I don't have to sign/stamp anything. That being said, I had another scenario that came up.

I am going to be working on the design of datacenters as well. My manager has extensive experience in datacenter design. Shortly after I joined, he asked if I would be alright being the engineer of record for the datacenter designs we do. He understands I don't have the experience, but says he will help me and make sure that I understand everything before I stamp it. I don't think he intentionally asked this only after I accepted the offer, but I don't really know him well enough to say.

In a court of law, is this an acceptable justification to provide my seal? Or does my experience have to be obtained under a licensed PE? My manager does not have a PE. For reference, I have no datacenter design experience, but would certainly like to get it. I just don't know if working on one or two projects is sufficient for me to be considered the engineer of record and for me to stamp everything, even if I understand it.

My manager is very understanding of my reluctance to sign the first time around and supported me, but I'm under the impression he has told his superiors that I would be ok being the EOR already (and I don't blame him, I told him I would be ok with it because this was many months ago, when I didn't know any better). If I refuse, I doubt anything would happen such as me losing my job, but it wouldn't look good to say the least.

And finally - since he did ask me to become the engineer of record after I joined - is this something that would necessitate additional compensation?

psmpsm: This is along the same lines as the first case where your management assumed you would use your seal to "okay" things for them. There are a couple of big questions here: 1) Is your mentor (manager?) an engineer, or just an experienced designer? If s/he is not an engineer (licensed or unlicensed) then you're not necessarily learning the engineering side of the design - you're learning "what worked in the past, as far as we know". 2) If "all of a sudden" stamped documents are required, what did the company do beforehand? 3) Do YOU believe you can be competent in all (or enough) of the required design challenges in the time frame your boss is assuming for this project? 4) What are the consequences if you DON'T stamp the document(s)?

For the record - as an EE, I have only ever had to apply my stamp to a handful of design documents (read "less than 50") over a professional engineering career spanning almost 40 years (Yes I know - my sig says a half century, but that includes the time spent before I actually acquired my PE.). All of them were related to either personnel or public safety, or were "required documentation" for government projects. Note that stamped prints were all for EXTERNAL consumption, as well - not one of the internal manufacturing documents had an engineer's seal affixed. Lastly - even though some people view me as an expert in my field, I do not. I know just enough to realize how much else there is to learn about "my little niche".

Converting energy to motion for more than half a century

1) My mentor/manager is an engineer in the appropriate discipline (electrical).

2) I know that before, atleast for the first question I asked, the company had a PE to stamp the test reports. I believe that PE retired. That's not an issue for me though as I declined to stamp.

3) I'm really not sure. I don't believe doing one project makes me an expert in datacenter design but I do think I'm capable of understanding every single thing in the design.

4) If I don't stamp, I'm not sure. The thing that is odd is, this never came up during the interview or onboarding. I was hired for system studies based on my background, but later found out I'd be involved in design, and then I'd be the engineer of record.

Quote (psmpsm)

but later found out I'd be involved in design, and then I'd be the engineer of record.

Something to be mindful of: many states require special business licenses and certifications through the state's engineering board to offer professional engineering services. So if these data center designs are being sealed and then sent to an AHJ for building permitting, your company may need a firm license. There are also additional insurance requirements beyond general liability that the company should consider. They should have an E&O policy. You mentioned they had somebody, so this all may be in place, but another common feature of those firm licenses is that a particular person be designated as the engineer in charge of the company (or at least all engineering aspects of the company). You would need to be named on that document.

I'm not sure where you are - all states are a little different - but this is a good generalization. You may want to check into it. (I doubt this falls under any industrial exemptions since you're being told a seal is required.)

Quote (psmpsm)

My manager does not have a PE.

Quote (psmpsm)

My mentor/manager is an engineer in the appropriate discipline (electrical).

Well, now I'm confused. Which is it?

If your mentor/manager is a PE in the appropriate discipline, what is the problem, and why are you being asked to stamp, instead of just learning under your mentor/manager's responsible charge?

I never said my manager was a PE. He is not.

He is an engineer without PE certification.

Quote:

My mentor/manager is an engineer in the appropriate discipline (electrical).

psmpsm, OK, I guess I misunderstood. So, you mean that your manager is an "unlicensed engineer"? In my neck of the woods, engineer generally means licensed PE, at least in the building construction industry, so that's why I was confused.

Yep, that's correct. Unlicensed engineer, but he has degrees.

OP's profile indicates Texas, which has an industrial exemption

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

I don't know of a state without one, but if these services are being offered outside the company, the industrial exemption likely would not apply. If he was designing the bus bars to go on a manufactured load center, sure. But if they are offering data center design as a service, I suspect it would not. Question for an attorney.

Stamping a document with a stateside stamp for delivery to a client in Canada. Sounds like engineering without a license to me. To make sure, check the laws of the province in question.

Does you company have a signature authorization policy? If so it may turn out that you are not allowed to use your stamp for company work, solving the problem. This is the kind of situation where you can request your supervision to get an opinion from the company lawyer regarding who in the company is authorized to apply a PE Stamp. Much as I hate to get the legal department involved in engineering, this is a situation where a carefully worded question can avoid much trouble.

When I looked into this at my company I found that I am not allowed to "Stamp" my work. Only the director of facilities engineering has that authority. This only becomes an issue if I were to produce something that our jurisdiction requires to be "stamped" (it is all related to building plans), as his reasonable control over my engineering product could be questioned.

psmpsm, I would strongly recommend you read the statutes of each state in which your designs will be built. You need to pay close attention to their definitions, requirements, etc. If you are not in responsible charge, you probably cannot be the engineer of record either, legally. It is imperative that you read state statutes and digest them. This is your learning curve.

Advice is good to seek but you need to develop the skills of reading statutes and understanding what they mean. This is an often overlooked aspect of engineering. Your company needs to ensure that it is operating with the laws of each state, too. All of you have that responsibility, as I have understood it per state boards. Ignorance is not an excuse for them. Public safety, and public means everyone per state boards, is the responsibility of government and everyone else, too.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php