KN-95 vs N-95
KN-95 vs N-95
(OP)
Now that the winds are starting to calm down, maybe it's time that review the engineering information. It's odd that our USA CDC NEVER recommended the use of KN-95 masks. They never existed before 2020 and why would a Chinese standard use USA characters? The CDC edicts always stated N-95 and it was only our media that tacked on the N-95 "OR" KN-95 terminology. Talk about spreading misinformation. If N-95 is truely effective, how much blood is on the hands of our media for pushing the fake KN-95 standard? Also, the waste and pollution...
I'm really surprised that no engineers that understand anything about filtration came forward on this? A piece of Saran Wrap filters better than a N-95. How is the KN-95 standard relevant?
I'm really surprised that no engineers that understand anything about filtration came forward on this? A piece of Saran Wrap filters better than a N-95. How is the KN-95 standard relevant?
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
https://nypost.com/article/kn95-vs-n95-masks-exper...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
As engineers we have standards and testing methods to evaluate the performance of materials and products. Can anybody produce any documentation that relates to STANDARDIZED performance characteristics of the KN-95 masks? Especially, anything that predates 2020 or was the KN-95 simply invented to sell to the ignorant?
When taking filter performance, looking at particle size is one dimensional. Saran Wrap and N-95 can both filter particles but one filters particles with much less pressure differential. KN-95 masks bypass around the filter vs N-95. Anybody that wears glasses knows this.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
How can you quantify their effectiveness when you can't quantify their performance?
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
The actual standard isn't much different to US or EU.
But because they are not certified or tested then they can be made out of recycled toilet roll. It's more a problem of non-existing import checks on the actual certification compliance than the actual KN standard it-self.
A properly compliant KN95 mask will perform much the same as a N95 or FFP2 in Europe.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
N-95 respirators utilize electrostatic filtration to achieve high filtration efficiency with back pressures that align with limitations of lung pressure and poor perimeter seals. The N-95 elements are much thicker and more loosely blown than the KN masks.
Regardless of your view of the importance of masking, the disaster is that the engineering community remained silent despite the clear spread of misinformation.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/whats-differen...
Also keep in mind that 3M is one of the largest manufactures of KN95 masks. And please watch the video and look at the chart comparing the various standards used around the world.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
3M's authorization to market non-NIOSH respirators was REVOKED well over a year ago:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/worker-health-safety-u...
Revocation is hard denial... I wonder why they would use such a term?
Only 7 days from authorized to rejected? Those multiple factors must have been serious.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
So with the way the emergency laws were they could bypass import checks.
EU still required CE certication which can't be done internally in China.
So you do get ffp2 kn masks in Europe but they carry the CE mark.
There seem to be alot of AliExpress products which are USA market which have some nonsense certication on them which is basically a company declared certificate.
I don't have a clue what the USA does for import safety checks.
The stuff that arrives by post has no checks in Europe. The properly imported does.
The kn95 standard itself isn't the issue. Its the lack of import control.
I know you have the UL standard but it's proberly a state function to do the rest of the quality checks. And people would not be happy if it was done federally.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
It seems that the difference between N95 and KN95 is just the name of the class because one is Chines standard and the other American, in Europe it would have been named FFP2
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Well it is as Alistair says it is a Chines standard and before 2020 they would have had to rename it either N95 in US or FFP2 in Europe and CE marked it before export.
But when the demand got high and people could buy through internet directly from Chines suppliers the KN95 turned up as an alternative before 2020 you wouldn't have seen it.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
But as far as I know there hasn't been any known outbakes from packages received either.
A package or product could have been contaminated by anyone that handles it, but the virus could only survive under optimal conditions for a week.
Package sent around the world rarely travels under such conditions.
To hot, to cold, to dry it would have been destroyed.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
None of that grade in Europe. What they were hot on in Europe was contamination with various chemicals from the production process. Which is deemed to be a huge issue with imports from China and also a few other nations USA included. It's one of the big contentions with the trade wars between EU and USA there is all manner of crap which the USA allows for various reasons which is out right banned in the EU and UK. But to ensure its not present would require the complete manufacturing process to change.
We didn't actually use that grade much, there was only a couple of counties had a requirement for that grade hard and some soft. From memory from work, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The rest of us just had to use surgeon mask style masks.
And there is research being done into the differences between different countries and virus spread depending on which type of masked used. Don't have a clue where it is leading.
There has been absolutely loads of quality data produced by the western healthcare systems which have been exposed to a variety of methods and actions with varying compliance rates.
Its going to take a few years though until the quality studys come out that aren't just for social media clickbait or political soundbites. Quite a lot of the political soundbite stuff the people involved I suspect will be long gone by the time it gets through the system.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
When I ordered them, I never considered that... funny. I still wear one when I go out and have several dozen left. I'm old and wobbly, overweight and have type2 diabetes... not taking any chances.
For my protection and the protection of others.
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Getting back to the means of keeping them in place, I've always suspected that if the ONLY option had been head straps, that a lot less people would have ever worn masks. They can be a real pain, particularly for people with a full head of hair, like a lot of women. Granted, now if you are a man with a beard, perhaps you would be better off using an N95 with head straps, but for virtually everyone else, using a mask with ear loops should work just fine. With that in mind, of all the medical facilities that I've had to visit over the past 10 months or so with my cancer treatment and all, I've hardly ever seen anyone using a mask with head straps. Now most of the medical personnel were wearing the so-called 'surgical' (blue) masks with ear loops. Note that I always wore a KN95 with ear loops and no one ever asked me to swap it for something else or to wear something different the next time I came in.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
And the ones we get are not sterile, they are though chlorine free and a few other thing's.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I haven't been professionally fitted and I don't have the usage discipline.
But they do help minimize me giving things to others.
On the other hand my daughter works as a PT in an in-patient rehab hospital.
She has kept wearing masks (correct size N95) the whole time.
And now that it is flu season, she has gone back to wearing a face shield also.
Is Europe having outbreaks of other virus as well (RSV)?
Not to mention the other corona viruses, the common cold.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I find them easy to fit: just bend the wire thingy until it matches my nose, and I'm done.
They occupy space on my face where my glasses would like to be, so I rarely wear both.
spsalso
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
From an engineering standpoint, this is an important consideration if we are looking to stockpile. Perhaps an idled production facility would be a more economic approach.
Not that we are using gamma irradiation to sterilize our masks but this study by Sandia NL correlated a loss of charge with a 40-50% reduction in filtration efficiency in the 200nm particle size range.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC80313...
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
...and if so, how would you suggest that we go about "calling it out immediately"?
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Fair game to market a mask but not to glam on to a regulated standard.
I chose to wear a KN95 instead of the blue surgical masks as I felt they offered a more secure fit. I do feel duped into believing they were somehow at a similar standard to the N95. That is clearly not true, in fact, a lie.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I get the impression that pasting "surgical" before the word "mask" is supposed to impart the complete endorsement in every possible way of the medical and scientific establishment.
Or not.
"surgical mask"
"surgical strike"
Who could argue with either?
Maybe I should file a "surgical tax return".
spsalso
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9013247/
I wish I could access this article from 1960:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/artic...
But, these questions are outside of our expertise as engineers. I am happy to see some engineers finally speaking up about fake standards. That was my intention by starting this topic.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I've used tanks in chlorine rich environments and facial hair and fit are extremely important...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I am told by those that use them while cutting that they are only worn to stop splashes going into their mouths, and fluids coming out of theirs dropping into the open surgical area. In the UK at least the gas pusher wouldn't be wearing one normally, they would be behind a cloth shield at the neck.
They apparently do have a quantifiable effect on post-surgical infection rates. To add they are the first stage of a tree of prevention methods. And they are dual purpose protecting the user, they all wear safety glasses these days as well. Only some procedures require them in the protocol but it's pretty standard for everything.
And they need to be able to smell while working in most cases.
I wouldn't say the kn95 is a fake standard, it's more a fake claim that the product complies with it. Which in some cultures is normal and no repercussions will result from doing it. We have the same issues in europe with certain standards, the fire resistance of products is a big topic at the moment especially with building cladding.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
A note on the science. early in the pandemic, the medical community was holding on to bad science
The 60-Year-Old Scientific Screwup That Helped Covid Kill All pandemic long, scientists brawled over how the virus spreads. Droplets! No, aerosols!
Once the medical community started to listen to environmental scientists about how particles of various sizes move in the air, the game changed dramatically.
Do I think the masks work? With the importance of mask fit, and the uncontrolled manner in which many users applied them are considered, the capabilities of the mask filtering material are less important. For many users the "Bypass Ratio" significantly reduced any masks effectiveness, this is why we do mask fit tests in industry. New NIOSH Study Supports the OSHA Annual Fit Testing Requirements for Filtering Facepiece Respirators, Posted on January 5, 2016
Early on there was a line of thought that we would all eventually get covid, and that the purpose of masking was to reduce the rate of transmission so that the medical community has time to figure out treatments. By now - symptoms or no symptoms, most have been exposed.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Note that Google has adjusted their algorithm a bit since I discovered this. You will get search results with spurious dates but if you follow the links they all make references to post 2020 references.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
https://www.chinesestandard.net/PDF/English.aspx/G...
And looking at the 2006 standard it also referenced KN and KP product standard classes.
https://www.chinesestandard.net/PDF.aspx/GB2626-20...
It has the previous standards listed so you can trace back the usage, I seem to remember back in the Uk in the 90's we called them N95 masks as well and it was 2005 ish they started calling them FFP, presumably that means something in French.
I don't think the N means American I think N95 is something to do with the particle size it stops.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
According to the Chines standard GB2626-2006 https://www.chinesestandard.net/PDF.aspx/GB2626-20...
KN stands for
And 95 is the grade of filtering capacity in % during the circumstances required.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same Chines manufacturer where manufacturing mask for both China, EU and US just labeling them differently KN95, PFF2 or N95 depending which market they are delivered to.
For EU there is no need for a third party validation it is enough that the company say they are upholding the EU standard.
Of course there can be test made if there is complaints or if a company wants to be sure, or by some medical board doing sample tests just to be sure the quality is what it says it is.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/929854O/respir...
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
And I would say that this will happen not only in China but more or less in all places of manufacturing and in the supply chain regardless of country.
But since China is also know for its replica market of course the concern is much higher when products comes from there and especially when bought by privet persons directly from there and not by medical companies with better resources to validate the products they buy.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
and I think part of the problem was that they didn't suggest masks soon enough and the 'authorities' were concerned that they would cause a 'run on' masks, leaving first responders without them.
Tnen it became political.
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
If I want to avoid breathing in harmful particulate, I'll choose an appropriate level of protection, buy something to a standard I understand from somewhere I trust and look for CE or UKCA marking through an accreditation body I recognise.
If I want to minimise my chances of passing Covid onto anybody else, then I'm going to:
a. Go nowhere near the rest of the population if I have any reason to suspect I'm infectious
b. Avoid poorly ventilated public spaces and ventilate the ones I have control over, so that virus concentrations are diluted sufficiently in the far field
c. Stay far enough away from other people (and encourage other people to do the same) to ensure people stay in that diluted far-field.
d. Wear some sort of covering over mouth and nose (and encourage others to do the same) to suppress the plume from coughs, sneezes and sighs of frustration, making the near field/far field boundary more predictable.
e. Trust other people to protect me in the same way, and give those who visibly don't deserve that trust an extremely wide berth.
Within that suite of protections, it doesn't make a right lot of difference whether the face covering is a GSR, something that complies with your favoured EN 149 or NIOSH standard, a Soviet Lepestok mask or a Chinese rip-off of a Gucci bandana.
A.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Dik's last sentence alludes to that problem.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
https://www.newsnationnow.com/health/coronavirus/h...
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Perhaps I should spray myself with WD-40 and announce that it is MY choice of perfume.
spsalso
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I suspect a large portion of govt simply realized that they had a runaway media faux-fire, knew any action would have little impact, and were afraid of liability bc of it. Personally I'm thankful that we were back in work/school/etc before masks became a popular media discussion point bc it saved a ton of grief and money. I'm also all for PPE and supporting the elderly/unwell, but given the tiny-yet-noticeable numbers of young/healthy folks wearing masks today I feel its time for govt to publicly call-out the paranoia and push those folks toward seeking mental healthcare.
As for mask standards otherwise, the wife and I generally prefer fitted respirators to dust masks and make a habit of reading/following both SDS and 3M/other manufacturer's cartridge recommendations so the details are rather inconsequential.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
They do not filter ALL odors, I notice. Again, experimental results.
From this, I reason that they filter some odors, but not all.
spsalso
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Mainly that even though you can breath through it, there is a slight pressure rice on the inside and maybe people unintentionally starts breathing more through there mouth and less through there nose when wearing them, so more of the outgoing air from the mouth goes to the nose meaning less molecules that is detected as smell can get in through the mask from the outside and into the nose.
So less smell.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
We had a rule that NOBODY was permitted to use an N95 mask unless we were properly fitted for it (the procedure included being put in a hood with some sort of super sweet smelling aerosol added, to confirm that we could not smell it).
When I saw people using N95's, of course this concerned me, as they had a false sense of security.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
With that said, there is no PEL for viruses. Theoretically, infection can start with a single virus exposure.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
Hmmm maybe if you are totally out of a immune system.
Otherwise one single virus would just boost your immune system, put it in the memory bank and wait for the next attack, better prepared.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
I think this possibility is the reason there are no acceptable exposure limits to any pathogenic substances.
RE: KN-95 vs N-95
But for humans you need to get exposed to get good immunity, and then one single virus ones and a while is the best.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein