×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
• Talk With Other Members
• Be Notified Of Responses
• Keyword Search
Favorite Forums
• Automated Signatures
• Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

#### Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

# Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV9

## Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

You’re way too diplomatic dik!
Don’t spare us the bad news, aka truth.

;)

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (because this thread has reached its thermal capacity.)

My big concern is that it's only beginning...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
There was an article on using algae to cut down on CO2 and I don't know how valid/realistic it is:

The problem is that it allows businesses to continue their ways without improvement by paying someone to remove the equivalent CO2 produced. It may be some of the snakeoil that will come out of the woodwork. I don't know, but it sounds plausible. If things get worse, people may try to cling to 'stranger things'.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Lots of people are working on schemes to feed algae with stack CO2. It is great in principle but technically difficult, especially at scale. One challenge is the LEDs, whose wavelength is tuned to the optimum for the specific algae species, gets blocked by the water getting steadily murkier.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Carbon capture is bogus. The whole point of burning fossil fuels is liberating CO2 so you can harvest the associated energy. To then spend that energy locking the carbon back up again makes no sense. Its a carbon merry go round machine. If that’s the goal - locked up carbon - why not just not burn it in the first place?

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I could understand if they were using solar powered algae but LED driven algae is just ridiculous.

I remember the original algae sequestration concept was intended to be used to create fuel. But that was back when everybody thought we were only a few years away from running out of crude oil.

Example: https://www.wired.com/2002/08/algae-power-plant-of...

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (I don't know how valid/realistic it is)

As I noted... I don't know if it's snakeoil, but the discussion sounded plausible.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

@tomfh ... sustainable fuels are not meant to, AFAIUI, "capture carbon". The problem with burning FFs is we're adding CO2 to the atmosphere, and that CO2 was remove from the atmosphere "eons" ago, hence we're adding the the atmosphere's CO2 concentration. Sustainable fuels work by removing CO2 from yesterday's atmosphere, and putting it back tomorrow, on very short time scales, so we're not significantly changing the CO2 level in the atmosphere. I think the intention is that sustainable fuels are an acceptable replacement (option) for FF for things like airplanes that Need a very dense energy fuel. Sure, I guess others would rather we gave up flying altogether (as a luxury we won't be able to afford in the future).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
rb... I think there's going to have to be a 'whole pile' of cutting back, too...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

The operators of Hoover Dam have reduced the power output because Lake Mead is shrinking.

Hoover Dam is in the Black Canyon. When they built the dam, the canyon was "hell hot." No doubt it is hotter now.

In the link below, Norton and Huddleston explain how to modify a hydroelectric plant to get two to four times more power from a given water flow, compared to the power it would produce in the usual way. They assumed that natural gas would provide the kick. Gordon D. Friedlander wrote about this proposal in the May 1, 1978 Electrical World, "Exploiting our 'dam' potential."

https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6170283-exploiting-our...

Since Black Canyon is so hot, solar energy could replace natural gas in such a plant. That would be the epitome of a renewable power plant, and the power output would be huge.

This proposal is too big for us today. Ain't going to happen. It doesn't require any electronic gizmos for downloading apps and keeping up with the Kardashians. It's so 1970s. On to Mars, say the billionaires. No need to worry about what we are doing to this planet.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Instead of sending celebrity billionaires to Mars, send them to ‘hell hot’

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (The problem with burning FFs is we're adding CO2 to the atmosphere)

This does not appear to be abating:

https://truthout.org/articles/carbon-capture-wont-...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-01...

I guess if there's a 'buck to be made'... this will likely continue until the end, whatever that is.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (Instead of sending celebrity billionaires to Mars, send them to ‘hell hot’)

I don't know how this will happen, but for the benefit of the earth, there are going to be some significant changes. I suspect there may be some interesting events when people realise/learn that the excesses of the few are causing them the grief they are experiencing. It's not in the governments' best interest to let them find this out.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
I'm not a mechanical guy, so I don't know the effects of this:

https://techxplore.com/news/2022-08-next-gen-energ...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Possible endgame:

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108146119

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
How climate change is altering the arctic:

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/07/26/polar-op...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
He was a scary guy... God has a nice warm spot reserved for that dude...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
More on Heating... no mention of climate change and reference to urbanisation for the cause of the heating problem. Their acknowledgement of a problem is good, but their approach may do little as the temperatures soar another 10C. .

https://news.yahoo.com/western-us-faces-water-and-...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Now that we know climate change is happening and there is nothing we can do to stop it, I propose a construction permit ban within 260 feet of the current sea level (the projected sea level rise). This is the only correct solution to the problem as it's the only one that minimizes the resources used.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
That will do nothing to reduce the effects of climate change. The problem has to be addressed, first.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Yes, it will do something. We need to accept climate change as fact and minimize impacts. Trying to prevent climate change consumes unnecessary energy and resources. The only logical step is to prepare for climate change. Building 260 foot sea walls around coastal cities is going to emit a lot of CO2. Building new cities at higher elevations is going to replace existing infrastructure without adding new burden.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
sorry tug... trying to prevent climate change from getting a lot worse... which is where it is headed. We may already be beyond some of the 'essential stop' points. Building back 260' will have no effect on the outcome. You may not be able to accommodate some of the possible changes. What happens if California and Texas max temperatures rise by 20C? It may be a 'fools errand' to think that you can accommodate them and use that as an excuse for not doing anything.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I said build up 260 feet, not back. I'm not talking trivial changes here. I said ban permits for construction below 260 feet above sea level.

There is absolutely nothing we can do to reduce CO2 emissions in the next 50 years as all infrastructure improvements cost CO2 up front and have long term payoff periods.

With all of the doom and gloom articles posted here, it's hard to be optimistic. Maybe it's time to be realistic.

I posted the apparently misunderstood story of Noah's Ark. He wasn't preparing for a storm, he was witnessing sea level rise. Noah was smart and moved to high ground. Perhaps we should listen to history. Noah only had to go high enough. Sea level hasn't stopped rising since the time of Noah.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Mega-drought

We keep aggressively growing in places we shouldn’t: Arizona, Utah, S. Ontario.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
mega growing will limit itself as soon as you eliminate the chemical fertilizers.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I count seven commenters here so far. Three of them post the most, and the OP posts the most by far. I think this ratio is probably true for the earlier threads on this topic.

That rule applies to the population of the planet. Very few of us care enough about the growing catastrophe to even say something about it. I know there are strong reasons for it. Most of them have families and careers and hopes and dreams. Why harsh the mellow? But a strong reason is not necessarily a good one. What are those hopes and dreams?

Of those who say something, very few do anything about the problem. That last rule is obvious here.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
About 30 years back, I quit driving for 12 years because my kids convinced me it was bad for the climate. I only started back up because I needed to because of my new job, at the time. I quit driving about 5 years back, partly eyesight and partly because I didn't need to. I can easily get by with pubic transportation most of the time.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Windward,

Yes, hot air is not helping.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
This may be a sign of things coming.

I usually keep my AC at 68F... which is cool... I like cool. It will be interesting if the southern states are restricted to setting their commercial ACs to 80F. I don't know what they are currently set at, but I suspect about 70F.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/3/23291066/spain-b...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Some of the effects humans have had on earth:

https://www.wired.com/story/striking-graphs-that-s...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

dik ... you have AC ?? your kids got you to give up driving, but you all kept the AC going. Any you cool to 68F ! ... boy, that's cool (mine is set for 22C).

I think it's laudable to use public transport ... at least one of the otherwise empty seats is being used. IMHO, outside of peak hour, public transport is very wasteful.

I do find your logic very "adaptable" ... kids get you to stop driving, but then you start again when you "need" to. You're so concerned that you stop driving, but keep the AC on ? Do you have solar cells ? maybe a heat pump ? (to save using the gird, and their Carbon cost) If you live in an area where you need AC (I'm guessing southern states, maybe Florida, but then I thought you were in Canada ??) why not move to where you don't need it ? where you can minimise your carbon footprint (to zero ? not reduce it for convenience).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (dik ... you have AC ?? your kids got you to give up driving, but you all kept the AC going. Any you cool to 68F ! ... boy, that's cool (mine is set for 22C).)

Yes, and it is unfriendly. It's a 14000 BTU floor portable unit, and cools the lower floor, where my 'office' is. My fault... the only mitigating thing is that we have hydro, which is user friendly.

ACs disconnected...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
On a positive note, it appears parts of the Great Barrier Reef are improving:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

To nobody's great surprise, the northern part of the GBR, most subject to the hot/cold water surge from La Nina/El Nino, shows the biggest change. Although this is a positive story, it is just random chatter. Crown of thorns is still an issue, but always has been.

Cheers

Greg Locock

New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
I wonder what the chances of this repeating next year, are? 1000 year storms seem to be occuring more frequent than ever.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11081421/...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Not so much fun for turtles

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
well with LGBTQ, it might be OK.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
It might be that China will have to change their way, quicker than they thought:

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-warns-th...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

And when did Mr LBJ mention all that nice info? And when did all this climate stuff start changing? What about the known astronomical changes that were forecast, years before as well?
Co2 has zero effect. It is all caused by high and low pressure areas, not gases.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Why do we always look up when we need understand? Perhaps the heat is coming from below. Small changes in the Earth's mantle contribute greatly to our temperature. Then again, this is not climate science. It has evolved into Climate Evangelism.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

What an indictment of the education system the last two posts provide.

I know that universities have long ago stopped teaching critical thinking, but this is ridiculous.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I'm sorry you can't understand critical thinking when you see it.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
...a bit of a partial solution, possibly:

https://phys.org/news/2022-08-simple-cheap-materia...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (Co2 has zero effect)

I think we're a bit beyond that.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (dik)

I think we're a bit beyond that.

What I said.
No perturbation of a system will have zero effect on that system.
That doesn’t even require mathematical abilities to understand.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
I think that if 'CO2 has zero effect' that mathematics may be beyond him.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (No perturbation of a system will have zero effect on that system.)

That approach has to be taken carefully, else we end up in Lorenz's butterfly condition, with a likelihood of an unworkable solution. Any changes/modifications have to be taken carefully and really monitored, for fear of creating a worse condition. It's not an easy problem to solve and way beyond my abilities.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

In this case it has been demonstrated, and the precise mechanisms scientifically understood.

Start here

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
I'm not sure of 'precise'. I think one of the problems is that everyone is looking for definition to the problem; this may not exist. Also one part of the problem is that historically, some people have made some WAGs that have been incorrect. An example of the type of problem is, "What happens if the Colorado river reaches 'deadpool' status?" What are the likely effects and has anyone looked at this model? The effects can be devastating and far reaching. That is one of the many issues facing the globe.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

dik,

I said the mechanism is understood. It is one of the inputs into a massive object of analysis, the global climate. So far the actual outputs are consistent with the model’s forecasts (and then understated by the spokespeople).

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (Brim)

So far the actual outputs are consistent with the model’s forecasts (and then understated by the spokespeople).

That's a lie.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Take it up with planet earth and the many dedicated scientists who study her, tug. I’m just the messenger.

One of the many benefits of your vaunted first amendment is that you’re free to talk any old sh!t. Heck, even firearms enjoy those rights!
Just don’t yell “fire!!” in a crowded theatre.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (That's a lie.)

There seems to be a correlation.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

The current models don't accurately predict anything. They can't even represent the past. As connected to climate change brim is, he must know this so his comment is a lie.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

That’s a serious charge Tug.

Since you are able to read my mind, tell us what reason I would have for lying about the catastrophic events happening with increasing frequency and severity over the past few years, and the irrational belief that CO2 is involved:

1) Brainwashed by snowflake lefty media;
2) George Soros/Bilderburg/Rothschild/Hillary-Pizzagate/Masons/Vatican conspiracy guides my thoughts ;
3) Growing up socialist;
4) I personally profit from investments in natural disasters;
5) Failure to appreciate that Donald Drumpf is an instrument of G_d
7) Socialize only with likeminded cultists in a silo;
8) Just plain low IQ;
9) _________________

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Flooding in Death Valley

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

We are having a little heat wave here in the Pacific Northwest. All you have to do is listen to the weather lady and see the video of the high and low pressure areas. The high pressure area forces out the marine layer that would cool us off, and best of all no Co2 or other gases involved other than the good ole atmosphere. Last year we had the same thing. Do the study, have you listened to the speech I posted above?
It all fits.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

9) promote Anarcho Marxism.

8 is uncoincidentally very close to 9.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Politics will fix the global warming problem, NOT:

https://globalnews.ca/news/9040995/china-united-st...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Is no one taking any notes? or even learning from recent events? The Canadian government is still pushing 'the Tar Sands' and pipelines.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Just do the study. Listen to the LBJ speech. Learn what the airforce posted on their website in years past. Climate change fits perfect here, since it is engineered.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)

#### Quote (Listen to the LBJ speech.)

LBJ wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer 50 years ago.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

None of them a sharp knife. That info is not from them, its from the ones that know. No matter it has come true.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (enginesrus)

Climate change fits perfect here, since it is engineered.

You say it is engineered. Earlier you said it was just hot air.

So which is it?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Much of engineering revolves around making hot air.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (TugboatEng)

9) promote Anarcho Marxism.

Please define that for me; google can't help me discover what that scary sounding thing is that you say I am promoting.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (TugboatEng)

Much of engineering revolves around making hot air.

Indirectly that is true, since engineers design the engines that generate the carbon dioxide that traps solar heat, thus warming the air.

I think this thread may finally be getting somewhere.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (dik)

The Canadian government is still pushing 'the Tar Sands' and pipelines.

That's Canadian federal politics on full display.
JT is desperate not to lose western votes, and his overarching mantra is "jobs, jobs, jobs", SNC corruption and the environment be damned. The thing is he doesn't get those votes anyway (legacy's a bltch!). The stupidest thing he did was buy a used pipeline for $7B from Kinder Morgan (not exactly paragons of corporate responsibility), without consulting voters. The LPC has also not stopped arms exports to the murderous Saudi regime. Electoral politics is where democracy goes to die - I couldn't find an attribution for that quote. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Do you know how to use Google? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I am slavishly devoted to Wikipedia as the ultimate bearer of Truth, and it does not have an entry. Is anarcho marxism the same as anarcho communism? "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV "One of Socrates’ friends went to the oracle of Delphi and asked them who was the wisest of men. It was, of course, Socrates. While many would accept such praise, Socrates believed that the gods were wrong and set out to disprove them by finding someone wiser. He questioned the poets, the politicians, the craftspeople—anyone who would speak with him. He found that everyone believed they knew far more than they did—and the more ignorant a person, the more they believed they knew. Reflecting on this, Socrates concluded that the gods were right: he was the wisest because he knew that he knew nothing, that his infinite ignorance eclipsed what little he knew. While some were grateful to Socrates, most were outraged at Socrates and saw to it that he was put on trial and sentenced to death." "While American political philosophy holds that everyone is equal and everyone has a right to free expression, these are wrongly interpreted as everyone being equal in knowledge and that all opinions are equally good (although mine is first among equals). The science fiction writer Isaac Asimov noted this: “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Newfoundland's turn to smoke. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (Tug) I can't take the climate Evangelists seriously when beach umbrellas being blown into the ocean is "apocalyptic". Tumbling beach umbrellas the new sign of the apocalypse! That’s good 😂 ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It will be interesting when they wake up and realise that there are serious changes possibly coming. https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/politics/climate-ch... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (I am slavishly devoted to Wikipedia as the ultimate bearer of Truth) Whilst I recognise the sarcasm, I'll ignore that and take the statement at face value ... "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Why would you ignore it, if you thought it might be sarcasm? So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) These 1000 year events may become a bit more common in the coming decades... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11094159/... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I'm ignoring the implied (assumed?) sarcasm and taking the comment at face value. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Your call, but the decision may be incorrect. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV thx, I do believe it is ! "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (Dik) that there are serious changes possibly coming. We’re told the apocalypse is HERE. That it is UNDENIABLE. Followed by the inevitable retreat to it’s “possibly coming”. This motte and Bailey game that alarmists play is what leads people to doubt. If you’re so sure of the apocalypse, defend that position. If you’re not prepared to defend your claims of Apocalypse then do not make them. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) We're in new territory... we have no idea of how this will end. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV The only thing new is that Europe decided to make themselves heavily reliant on their enemy for energy all while continuously prodding said enemy. Now west Europe is going to have to bear through a hotter than average summer because their enemy is restricting their energy. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Ya, and winter may be coming up in a couple of months, too... it just gets more and more interesting (in a Chinese sense). So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Hey it's your side that is going to be a direct cause of the apocalypse you predict and it's going to happen within your children and grandchildren's lifetimes as it's going to happen this winter. It's passionately short sighted climate policy that is going to upend our world. China watched Russia fail at cold war so they're going to beat us through a warming war. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. FYI, that emoticon only makes you look pretentious, not thoughtful. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Analyze me "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I did. You're an Anarcho Marxist. You don't make any sense. I think oxymoron is the word. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV But what is an Anarcho Marxist? It's crucial, to understand how I am screwing up so badly, so please help. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Help me out, do you prefer Communism or Marxism? If you want to know how you screwed up so badly it's when you introduced yourself by saying you're so smart you think on another level and keep doubling down by telling us how much you hold back when you get called out. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV There will be no winners while everybody is burning their own house down. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Quit with the politics, guys (binary term for PC). So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) For cooling, tug, I suggest they look into something else. I don't think that will do the trick. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) "Analyze me"... you forgot the fourth monkey, "Do no evil!" from my pop, 60 years back... maybe 70. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Not politics, dik. My mental health is at stake depending on the answer. I've been told I may know too much, which sounds very theoretically conspiratorial. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV dik, Do they mention concrete grade sand, which the world is running out of? Sahara sand is unsuited apparently. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) just briefly touched on... the main focus was looking at how all the components should be reviewed to produce the concrete with the smallest carbon footprint. Readily available concrete sand is becoming a more serious issue... Concrete is one of the construction materials with the highest carbon footprint. See.... https://www.dezeen.com/2018/03/24/desert-sand-coul... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Brilliant, let's use special building materials sourced from unique parts of the world, shipped by diesel engine. Before the Sears catalog, we used to build things mostly with locally sourced materials. Remember, if it costs more it's because it requires more energy to produce! ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Sorry tug... In case you're curious (ICYC), many continents have a large supply of desert sand... it's not only relegated to the middle east. Suitable sand for concrete manufacturing is becoming more difficult to come by, and desert sand because of the fineness and 'roundness' is not really good. We need a real 'concrete' guy to fill in the blanks. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV And before the Beverley Hillbillies discovered Texas tea this was how we got around. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I see lots of cement in your animation and maybe your head. Dik, are you able to quantify the CO2 produced by various cement products and combine it with the cost of shipping said products to their end use? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Tug, you must be real fun at parties. Try making your insults more creatively humorous and less bitter. And now you're giving dik a homework assignment, like you're the headmaster. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I wouldn't be much fun at a meeting of the Communist party if that's where you're leading. Otherwise, my gas range and charcoal grill are quite popular with the neighbors. Two users here are about to get my hot sauce once I get my bottle situation figured out. I don't have beef with communists personally, it's their uncontrollable hatred of western democracy that I have beef with. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Do not confuse governmental systems with economic systems. Communists do not necessarily hate democracy. Dictators, Kings, autocrats and anarchists hate democracies. Communists hate unbridled western capitalism, as do socialists. Most socialists have no problem with spcially responsible capitalism and both understand the usefulness of each other. Even China tolerates a certain amount of bridaled capitalism. Russia has gone way past that. It now looks like an autocratic unbridled capitalistic mafia state where the most powerful crime boses wage war over the Don Putin territories. There is hardly a communist government left anywhere in the world. Cuba and North Korea only come to my mind. Vietnam? Looks like we certainly wernt fighting to stop communism there. I don't think the classic capitalism-communism struggle exists anymore. The autocrats-democracy struggle has knocked that one out of contention. Only a few autocrats hang on to communism these days. They're after much bigger prizes. Saudi Arabia has been importing sand for decades. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Cold War propaganda has a long half-life in the brains of folks who don’t have any other sources of information. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Consequentially sea level is rising. NASAs even tracking it... https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/150192/tr... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Tug's boats are getting a little more pricey, and I suspect this will only increase: https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) An additional feature to climate change that I wasn't aware of due to a weakened immune system and 'better' bugs: https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/08/09/climate-c... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV what does "mean global sealevel" mean ? There are plenty of studies of specific locations where the sealevel hasn't risen 4" since 1990. Of course, there could be upthrust of the land offsetting the sealevel rise ... (just as subsidence can exaggerate it) "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I work from a pier built in the 1940's. There has been no rise for us. No propaganda, brimmer, I am personally observing it in your comments. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Maybe not in your neighbourhood... but NASAs been measuring something. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) rb... some areas there is an upthrust... Manitoba is slowly 'lifting' due to a mile or so of Pleistocene glaciation, 20,000 years back. It just complicates a really complex model a bit. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I do wonder that we can measure mm changes in "sealevel" (thinking of waves and tides and such) from an orbit several hundred kilometers high. It's be interesting to see their data reduction algorithm. I wonder if it includes a "self fulfilling prophesy" ? And they say they correlated with tidal meters ? Ok, but I've seen several that don't show 4" increase since 1990 ... ok, maybe its my several verse their thousands of others ? It would be interesting to see if they had tidal meter data at the same location and time as their satellite. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) If the rise becomes more than mm, it could get real interesting. They're indicating that it may be more than a few mm. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I don't think level measurement sensitivity is the problem. The ice is melting 2x as fast and Antartica contains 80%. Its going to go somewhere. Not likely down. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) 1503... That's what I was thinking. More news about something closer to home, the arctic: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV they're measuring things in "mm" ... I didn't mean they were predicting one mm of rise. They say the average has risen 100mm in 20 years. I expect their data is very noisy, so I wonder how they analyzed it. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Don't know, but recently posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVb0zNTnGBk So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV ok, so the news have picked up the NASA story ... "big deal" they show "high tide flooding events" for 2000, then predicted for 2050 ... no data for 2020 ? 2010 ?? Ok, I waited through the whole thing ... ok, a prediction for 2022 ... we're 1/2 way thru, how are we trending ? 4" sealevel rise (in 30 years) should be very detectable on tide meters ... is it shown there ? Of course the news shrilly echo the NASA report. That's what passes for investigative journalism thee days. It would've been interesting to see how local tide gauges compared to predictions from teh report. How did they convert the report (of sealevel rise) into High Tide Flooding Events ? "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV that chart (of average sealevel rise) looks awfully similar to the CO2 level charts from Mt ? in Hawaii. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV These climate change models are like communism. They never work. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Take a look out your window... nearly on a daily basis, something major is happening. The models may not be precise (or even work) but something is happening. Just because the model is faulty, it does't invalidate the effects of climate change. There is daily anecdotal evidence and it will likely get a lot worse since no one is addressing the problem. Keep politics out of this; the world is in this mess because of unfettered capitalism. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I look out my window and see a cooler than average summer. What has changed is that you're now getting the weather report from France and Australia as well. When you look at the world as a whole, there will always be an extreme weather event going on somewhere. The climate Evangelists have figured this out and are using it to paint a picture. Perhaps we should go back to looking out of our own window. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Yeah. That's it! I have just one remaining question though. Why are the extremes getting more extreme. What's the talking point for that? It was 100 F in London and over 100 for just about everywhere in Spain last week. Maybe; yes;, of course; the big solar flare hit us. Or was it Elon's rocket motor tests. Took a load off my mind, that did. Phew! Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Yeah... that's it, the extremes are getting more extreme. Not only that, they are getting more extreme more often, and not just marginal increases... the increases are getting greater. It's going to be interesting to see what the future holds, if these extremes keep getting more and more extreme. Something to ponder... More news: https://www.thelocal.fr/20220811/in-pictures-frenc... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/1... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/video-dry-sp... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV It was so hot in London TFL told everyone that could to stay home. Rail service was shut down over a number of UK regions due to rail buckling, or extreme danger thereof. One high speed route in Spain closed, but that was due to somebody stealing the fibre optical cable. Probably needed money to buy an AC unit. But he's right. If you're surrounded by water (SF), or live on the cloudy side of a small island with 100s of km of Atlantic water, it's quite comfortable. My window is open too. That's my entire HVAC system. Winter and summer. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV "Just because the model is faulty, it doesn't invalidate the effects of climate change." ... sorry, but (IMHO) of course it does. We have (IMHO) little idea about the interactions in the environment, we keep getting surprised by things when we go looking (oh look, here's a natural source of free Cl molecules in the south pole, possibly the source of the free CL molecules at altitude, and not our CFCs). Sure we can say that humans are impacting the natural environment (of course we are), in so many ways. The only way to stop is to "stop" ... but then removing ourselves from the system is changing the system. I agree ... ignoring our impact on nature is something we do at our peril. I agree that capitalism is flawed ('cause there is no way to determine the true cost of anything, only the price we're willing to pay). But capitalism is still the best mechanism for allocating resources between alternatives. "Keep politics out of this" ... sorry, that's impossible. "... unfettered capitalism" ... sorry, you don't want to see unfettered capitalism ! (think of late 1800s, early 1900s Victorian or US "robber barons") What we have today is quite fettered capitalism, with all the government interference, and government interference means politics. The most we can hope is that this interference is heading in the right direction, eg cleaning up pollution, requiring anti-polluting (or pollution reducing) devices. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV The economies back then did not have the same capability to do damage at the scale possible today, although they tried their hardest. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I thought the sea level one was interesting. The sea is rising mostly in the middle of oceans. While I suppose this means ships use more fuel to climb the hill, it scarcely seems worth worrying about. Sure, the east coast of the USA is seeing some actual sea level rise, as well as land level fall, but the latter is far more significant. The hot spot near Sydney looks exciting, but of course there's that very annoying photo of the tide gage in Sydney Harbour, which demonstrates that local sea levels haven't shifted much. Anyway 3mm per year, 1 ft in a century, mostly in mid ocean. Averages, ya gotta love them. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV that was my recollection too. it was also my understanding that most of the sealevel rise (as small as it has been) would be due to the change in volume as the sea water warms up (rather than melting glaciers). "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Was anyone expecting sea level rise to be a simple thing to measure? It was just as complicated before AGW. I trust the experts to take all the complicating factors into account and provide a reasonable, unbiased, non-politicized estimate of the direction and rate of change. There is also the effect of warming water on sea level rise. But instead of trying to do their jobs or second guess them from our keyboards, why don’t we just ask the folks in Venice, Florida, and Pacific islands what they are seeing? "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (Dik) Take a look out your window... nearly on a daily basis, something major is happening. Climate change exists but you’re simply imagining it when you say you can easily detect it by looking out the window. You’re doing the same thing so many people do - looking at weather events and saying “see? Climate change.”. It’s textbook confirmation bias. Climate change has taken hundreds of scientists and decades of careful research to actually prove. It is extremely difficult to find any real anomaly in extreme events. Claiming you can easily see climate change simply by looking out the window is fallacious reasoning. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Great example brimmer, a city built landfill sinking into the ocean is sea level rise. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (Tomfh) looking out the window It’s called an expression. Try not to read everything so literally. I find it hilarious when deniers pick up terms like ‘confirmation bias’ and ‘silos’ and throw them up as attacks on folks like dik who take these problems seriously. Textbook upsidedownworld. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I can't take them seriously. The action now crowd are doing more damage than good. Completely replacing our energy infrastructure is going to cost more energy than it took us to get here. This constant drone of climate change in every media, entertainment, etc is present to create and fear makes us make irrational decisions like investing in gravity batteries. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Make your rants more focused and coherent and there’s a chance I might try to slog through them, but still there’s only so much absurdity I can tolerate in a week. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (Completely replacing our energy infrastructure is going to cost more energy than it took us to get here.) That may give you an inkling of the type of problem the world may be facing. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV If Florida is sinking it is largely because the tectonic plate for North America is tilting, about a line roughly running from California to the north The Mediterranean isn't rising significantly, according to NASA, so Venice sinking is just the usual Venice stuff. As it turns out, plate tectonics (again) and groundwater extraction are big contributors. The Pacific islands are growing not sinking, in general. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-08/why-are-hun... 3/3 not bad BS Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) From: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understandin... HIGHLIGHTS Sea level has risen 8–9 inches (21–24 centimeters) since 1880. In 2020, global sea level set a new record high—91.3 mm (3.6 inches) above 1993 levels. The rate of sea level rise is accelerating: it has more than doubled from 0.06 inches (1.4 millimeters) per year throughout most of the twentieth century to 0.14 inches (3.6 millimeters) per year from 2006–2015. In many locations along the U.S. coastline, high-tide flooding is now 300% to more than 900% more frequent than it was 50 years ago. If we are able to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions, U.S. sea level in 2100 is projected to be around 0.6 meters (2 feet) higher on average than it was in 2000. On a pathway with high greenhouse gas emissions and rapid ice sheet collapse, models project that average sea level rise for the contiguous United States could be 2.2 meters (7.2 feet) by 2100 and 3.9 meters (13 feet) by 2150. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV "In many locations along the U.S. coastline, high-tide flooding is now 300% to more than 900% more frequent than it was 50 years ago." Yes, these figures were from tide gages and hence measure tectonic plates tilting, groundwater extraction, wetland draining, dredging, and a slight effect from sealevel changing, whereas the NASA maps actually measure sea level, not the other stuff. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV GL, Are you trying to say it is all due to subsidence? That is a factor in relative sea level rise but it does not explain most of it. The first map below shows subsidence does not explain overall sea level rise. There are a few places (Pacific NW, Alaska) where plate rise exceeds sea level rise, but not enough to mitigate the global problem very much. Further, there is this statement in the link: Some estimates indicate that up to 80 percent of subsidence in the U.S. is caused by the exploitation of underground water stores. The remainder is mainly due to geologic factors. In other words, human caused from both ends. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (TugboatEng) Completely replacing our energy infrastructure is going to cost more energy than it took us to get here. In other words, "keep destroying the way we've been destroying" -- guaranteed failure that resembles slow motion suicide. Tug, you're a master of the extreme 'either-or' gambit. But it's a logical and moral failure as well as a cop-out, because failure is not an option. To steal a riff, 'if you are not with us, you are against us'. 'Us' being the ones with children and grandchildren we care about. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Brimmer, there are two groups that stand to benefit from all of this AGW nonsense. There are the Marxists who want to use the movement to inject their social change into the world, expand governments, and take away liberties. Then, there are the capitalists who want funnel that expanded government money into their pockets for their "green" projects. So no, I'm not an either-or person. I think both sides are bad. However, I think your side is worse because it creates the situation for the capitalists to take advantage of. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I'm still waiting for you to tell me what my side is "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV This sea level lark is great fun, never has so much data been manipulated by the few to scare so many. As Mr Churchill might have said. So, here's NASA's satellite sea level data with a hastily manufactured explanation for an inconvenient DROP in 2010, yet somehow dik's panic merchants didn't try to explain the much less abrupt acceleration 2006-2015 by discussing the possible causes, which doesn't appear in the satellite data. So a bit of rain here and there causes a 5mm drop in sea level. That's very interesting. https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/pia1629... Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV OK, you've established I am an Enemy of the State. But there are many varieties, which am I? "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (You clearly despise Western democracy and those that live under it.) Western Democracy may not be all it's cracked up to be... look up the term Oligarchy, more likely the governments the US and Canada have. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) I don't think people are scared, or even reacting, it would appear. I suspect many don't have a clue. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) ...not only heat up, but dry up, too: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2022... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Marxist. Have I not made that clear? Same as that IM account you use as an alt. Philosophy and Marxism seem to go hand in hand. I apologize Greg for dirtying up the responses to your interesting and critical comment. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV They don't have a clue partly because the meeja are spreading silly scare stories. The facts are, as they say, out there, but the politicians and journalists like to confuse the issue. BS came up with 3 terrific examples, where he repeated the stories peddled by the usual suspects, yet which on even brief examination turn out to be 180 degrees from the truth. Venice is not sinking primarily due to sea level change, ditto USA coastal cities, and Pacific islands are mainly growing, not shrinking. I emailed some journo about an especially stupid set of numbers in a renewable energy article and her response was that the numbers came from the company's press release. She didn't see a problem in blindly repeating what some PR hack had put together to sell their idea, rephrased to make it sound authoritative. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Marxists everywhere now. You’re just about frothing at the mouth Tug, maybe an excess of Tucker? Cause you’re pretty much channeling him. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV How about you try to respond to the other posts about climate change and stop trying to make this about yourself? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Paranoia strikes deep… "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV "I trust the experts to take all the complicating factors into account and provide a reasonable, unbiased, non-politicized estimate of the direction and rate of change." ok, I don't. Mostly because this is a highly politicised. I think there's way too much consensus and not enough challenging. As you say "the science is decided" (let's make sure the experiments agree with the conclusion) "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I don’t think I’ve ever said "the science is decided". What I’ve consistently said is that the model so far agrees with the reality and has predicted the broad trend toward hotter, dryer environment in many places, as well as more extreme, less predictable weather events. We don’t need to wait for fully settled science to know there’s a problem and that we need to act fast. I’ve tried to illuminate using dumb analogies (but evidently not dumb enough). If you insist the science is crooked, the problem is yours and I can’t help. There’s no discussing with conspiracy theorists. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (Mostly because this is a highly politicised. I think there's way too much consensus and not enough challenging.) The real problem here, I think is that we are in totally new territory, and things can go in different ways, likely including some that haven't been developed, yet. Just because we don't know the end result, is no reason to ignore the causes and to not act on trying to remedy them. Just looking at current climate, things could get really rough... can you imagine the American southwest without hydro to power their air conditioners when temperatures soar to 40C. I forgot to add, with the Colorado River,drying up. It's not going to be pretty. It may not happen, but it appears to be moving in that direction. As I said, we are in new territory, and it may get ugly. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (brummer) less predictable weather events. We don’t need to wait for fully settled science to know there’s a problem and that we need to act fast. If the models are correct shouldn't these events become more predictable? Don't wait for the science to be fully settled! Invest now before it's too late! You sound like an insurance salesman. I don't think you've been dumbing things down for us, you're operating at your own maximum capacity and it just isn't good enough. Do you use analogies when explaining weld composition to colleagues? I doubt they appreciate that. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Tug... the problems are too complex. Can you even imagine the effects of the Gulf Stream slowing and stopping and what effects that would have on European climate (not weather)? The arctic is warming and the permafrost will likely release the stored metbane; can you tell me what the effect of that is? or if the Jet Stream moves permanently north? These are only some of the possibilities and new ones seem to keep popping up. Just the earlier article about effect on health and diseases... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Ideally, we adapt. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Yes. That's it. But do we adapt physically, like raise our body temperature tolerance, or geographically, like nomads, move to Alaska, NWT, Greenland, Siberia, Anartica, or move our cities to higher ground, let some just sink (didn't we try that with NO but it only cost more), or technologically, like CO2 capture, nore nuclear plants, build tidal dams, more air conditioning, etc, etc. Lastly, doing nothing. BTW Do we have cost estimates for all of those options? Could doing nothing have the highest cost of all? Becoming extinct? Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Feedback loops, dik It was covered in engineering school, but I guess some are choosing to disbelieve it. Denial is by a choice, not a position reached through observation and reasoning. You know, the building blocks of science. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It appears mass extinctions may be good for the planet earth... we may get our wish... https://www.livescience.com/sixth-mass-extinction-... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) feedback loops... a fundamental part of cybernetics... just can't seem to get away from that. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Perhaps a good sign... or maybe redistributing the carbon. To improve, there has to be a massive reduction in fossil fuels. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Gulf-Oi... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Crop rotation, as noted earlier, may become a thing of the future: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-11/grain-indus... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I don’t know dik, allowing farmers do things like save seeds and care for the soil and sell locally sounds like radical capitalism hating to me. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV 1503, they're only talking 4°C as a worst case. I think our bodies can handle that. Brimmer, we never used the term "feedback loop". That was a term coined by non-engineers to describe "closed loop". The problem is that they don't know what the output is so they can't call their loop closed. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) The hot spells are a consequence of 1C... who knows what 4C will bring... likely nothing very good. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) brims... can you keep the politics out of it? It's part of the problem due to the governments' inaction... but affects capitalists and socialists in the same fashion. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Sorry tug... feedback is a cybernetic term and may be relevant, elsewhere. It's essential for controlling systems. It's not just a 'trendy' term... my first exposure to it was over 50 years back. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Classic Tug, seizing on a single word and leveraging it to attack the entire credibility of a statement or person. Sounds a lot like a FoxNews* tactic - is that by any chance your cable network of choice? You have the habit of picking a key word and attacking a different meaning of that word - total logical fail! It also is the basis of your puerile insults. In all seriousness, you should get that checked out. Please Tug, throw me a sophisticated insult that I can respect! One that hurts! * FoxNews. I know, it’s an oxymoron. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV dik, I’m only citing TBE, my mentor in matters political. I don’t even know what some of those words mean, so try to be patient with me. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV What do you think, dik, Have we reached peak back-end-of-a-cow emissions with this thread? Not that you haven’t provided more than enough evidence to overcome even the most thorough, conscientious, smokestack-hugging skeptic. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Not done yet... there's likely more to come. Still awaiting the government decree on who's to receive water from the Columbia River... Next big thing coming up, I think. This can affect several states as well as Mexico.... Texas and California are still in the 30C range. It appears the UK is still cooking and drying up... so little has changed. When it does, I'll let you know. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (and may be relevant) should be corrected to, "is likely relevant." Even reading a book can be treated as cybernetics... action, feedback, and correction. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It looks like no one is paying any attention to this possible calamity... https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV "calamity" ? "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) possible calamity... do you need to look up the dictionary definition of calamity? to see if it's a suitable term. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Brimmer I don't think you know it's an oxymoron. I don't think you know what an oxymoron is. An oxymoron requires two contradictory words/statements. Fox and News aren't contradictory. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) ...a contradiction... sharp and dull. Fox and news, may be contradictory. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Assuming that its even possible, raising body temperature and resulting increased metabolism by 4° is going require an increase in food consumption, if nothing else. Italian reports say many farms there are experiencing an 80% decline in production and we're at 1°. It's not averages that are particularly worrying. Its the excursions from averages that make critical events. The average throughout the year could remain the same even if extremes were greater than 10 σ. Summer crops aren't going to survive waiting for winter rain, even if its more rain. Build more water storage? Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV 80% reduction in production? That seems huge. Maybe there are other causes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC77752... If people aren't buying it why produce it? For every negative statistic there is a rush to somehow tie it to climate change. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (TugboatEng) Fox and News aren't contradictory. That explains just about everything. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Falling crude prices…looks like Joe’s trip to grovel and kiss MBS’s backside is yielding benefits for American Hummer owners. He’ll never get his lips clean again though. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (TBE) Maybe there are other causes You should put that in your byline so you wouldn’t have to type it over and over. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Hey, the Hummer has one of the most fuel efficient engines in it's class. When installed light pickup trucks in the early 1980's that engine would routinely get 20-25 mpg, a number that still hasn't been duplicated today ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV For every drought there is a flood. For every climate scientist there are 10000 Denialists. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV What exactly is a climate scientist? Is there a degree? Is it accredited? What kind of qualifications are required to be called a climate scientist? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV What are the Denialist’s qualifications? "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV No qualifications necessary, just a bit of skepticism. Leftists are getting weird. They can't define a climate scientist, they can't define a woman, they can't define a recession. On top of that, discussion is not healthy and everything must be left to the experts. It's as if leftists don't know anything at all. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I think skepticism doesn’t mean what you think it means. Any good scientific investigator’s mentality will include skepticism. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (For every driest there is a wettest.) There seem to be a lot of extremes, lately... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV A zero appetite for bunkum is a good start. Venice is sinking because sea levels are rising. Bunkum. Pacific islands are sinking. Bunkum. Greta sailing the Atlantic. Bunkum. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Your ‘arguments’. Bunkum. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Greg has done a good job explaining why his examples are bunkum. Can you please explain how his examples are bunkum instead shouting your usual unfounded accusations. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Maybe I just really enjoy saying ‘bunkum’, is that allowed Mr Mall Cop? It’s late Friday, time to start uncoiling for the weekend tug. But I suspect you won’t; after all, anarcho communists never sleep. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV You're 3 hours ahead, you go first. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Well OK, " may be compromising the stability of the East Antarctic ice sheet" "warmer waters and sea-level rise may damage marine life and threaten human coastal settlements" Not exactly sticking their necks out. But what puzzles me is that this is sea ice melting. Mr Archimedes told me that floating sea ice which melts makes no difference to sea level. Then in the paper they reference the eastern ice shelf GAINS mass between 2003 and 2019, according to table 1 in https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaz584... Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) 'May' is the best they can do... none of this is certain. The Antarctic glaciation is melting and getting smaller. I wonder where it is going? So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) A new motor for electric vehicles, perhaps? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-17-... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV @brimstone, "Any good scientific investigator’s mentality will include skepticism." ... oh, ok. So you believe, I guess, that the case proven beyond any shadow of a doubt and therefore no skepticism is permitted (any skeptic is clearly denying a proven statement). Or you are skeptical of some CC statements ? which ?? "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV rb1957, as my favorite physicist and bongo drum player wrote "In summary, the idea is to try to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgment in one particular direction or another. The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for example, with advertising. Last night I heard that Wesson oil doesn't soak through food. Well, that's true. It's not dishonest; but the thing I'm talking about isn't just a matter of not being dishonest, it's a matter of scientific integrity, which is another level. The fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that no oils soak through food, if operated at a certain temperature, If operated at another temperature, they all will - including Wesson oil. So it's the implication that has been conveyed, not the fact, which is true, and the difference is what we have to deal with. We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science. ... We have learned a lot from experience about how to handle some of the ways we fool ourselves. One example: Millikan measured the charge on an electron by an experiment with falling oil drops, and got an answer which we now know not to be quite right. It's a little bit off, because he had the incorrect value for the viscosity of air. It's interesting to look at the history of measurements of the charge of the electron, after Millikan. If you plot them as a function of time, you find that one is a little bigger than Millikan's, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, until finally they settle down to a number which is higher. Why didn't they discover that the new number was higher right away? It's a thing that scientists are ashamed of - this history - because it's apparent that people did things like this: when they got a number that was too far above Millikan's, they thought something must be wrong - and they would look for and find a reason why something might be wrong. When they got a number closer to Millikan's value they didn't look so hard, And so they eliminated the numbers that were too far off, and did other things like that, We've learned these tricks nowadays, and now we don't have that kind of a disease - we hope. But this long history of learning how to not fool ourselves - of having utter scientific integrity - is , I'm sorry to say, something that we haven't specifically included in any particular course that I know of. We just hope you've caught on by osmosis. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that. ... I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that requires bending over backwards to show how you maybe wrong, a kind of integrity you ought to have when acting as a scientist. This is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen as well." Read the whole thing at https://faculty.mtsac.edu/cbriggs/Biol-1%20Reading... TLDR you need to discuss why you might be wrong, which is a level of self-skepticism I have rarely seen (arse covering-I can't actually think of any) in any climate related papers, and never in the pop media summaries. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Hydro is dependent on the water supply. This could be at risk: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62524... Article shows amounts of power provided by hydro, nuclear, and fossil fuels. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV greg, we agree. I was replying to a post from brimstone. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) More unexpected melt... I wonder where the ice is going? Could it affect sealevel water? https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/topstories/antar... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Is there a possibility the changes may be more severe that we may not be able to adapt? https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/202... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Dik, how is it possible that we may not be able to adapt? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I just watched "An Enemy of the People" last night. The movie was surprisingly good. It took quote a few jabs at the media of the time (hand powered printing press times). Perhaps it can open a few of us up to some critical thinking. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (Dik, how is it possible that we may not be able to adapt?) Depends on how severe things get... there could be some huge 'shakeups' in life style, and people don't even seem to handle Covid, well. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV As humans we have proven we can survive in outer space. How is it possible that we might not be able to adapt? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV That's the frog in the water. Change is not in itself fatal. Rate of change will do it every time. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Tug. You will say that it is way too expensive to equip every human being with EVA space suits. Then you also have to save all the other species we depend on. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV The adaptation is simple in this case. We shouldn't be wasting resources attempting to harden our coastal cities. A much more efficient adaptation would be to build new, efficient cities on locations >260 feet above the current sea level. The fact that this isn't the first and highest priority is proof that nobody actually believes this nonsense. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (Rate of change will do it every time.) That's one of the concerns... we've accomplished in decades what has taken millennia in past. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (We shouldn't be wasting resources attempting to harden our coastal cities.) Rising sealevel is one of the least concerning problems. There are a pile of other possible concerns that are much worse than 20' of water. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (dik) That's one of the concerns... we've accomplished in decades what has taken millennia in past. You keep repeating this nonsense. In the past 14,000 years the average rate of sea level rise has been significantly faster than it is today. Over the last 14,000 years the rate of sea level rise has been 0.028 feet per year. Over the last 100 years the rate has been 0.003 feet per year. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) ...and in 200 years, it may increase a whole bunch... not 20,000 years. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) I don't know where you get your numbers... I prefer mine: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understandin... HIGHLIGHTS • Sea level has risen 8–9 inches (21–24 centimeters) since 1880. • In 2020, global sea level set a new record high—91.3 mm (3.6 inches) above 1993 levels. • The rate of sea level rise is accelerating: it has more than doubled from 0.06 inches (1.4 millimeters) per year throughout most of the twentieth century to 0.14 inches (3.6 millimeters) per year from 2006–2015. • In many locations along the U.S. coastline, high-tide flooding is now 300% to more than 900% more frequent than it was 50 years ago. • If we are able to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions, U.S. sea level in 2100 is projected to be around 0.6 meters (2 feet) higher on average than it was in 2000. • On a pathway with high greenhouse gas emissions and rapid ice sheet collapse, models project that average sea level rise for the contiguous United States could be 2.2 meters (7.2 feet) by 2100 and 3.9 meters (13 feet) by 2150. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV So in 120 years it has risen 8 inches and nobody noticed. If it rises a few feet in 200 years is it really going to be catastrophic for the human race? Every pathway to reduce greenhouse gasses involve massive greenhouse gas emissions? The only correct action here is to prepare as prevention is only going to exacerbate the problem. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV The human race has thrived over the past 400 feet of sea level rise. Why should I be so concerned by 7 more feet? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) As I noted earlier, "Rising sealevel is one of the least concerning problems." It just gives you a bigger playground to play with your boats... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV @TBE ... "The human race has thrived over the past 400 feet of sea level rise." Really ? in 3000, 4000 years SL has changed 400' ?? is there a reference for this statement ? And yes dik, sealevel change probably isn't the critical climate change issue (unless you're on a low lying island, or Florida). It came up as someone suggested an engineering solution to the "problem" (don't build below 200' ASL) and spiraled from there. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV RB, yes it was approximately 14,000 years ago when sea levels were low enough humans were able to cross from Asia to North America. Search Beringia for more information. The stories of Noah's Ark and Atlantis are also about sea level rise. Keep in mind, at that time, what would become the north Eastern United States was under 2 miles of ice at the time. Global warming has been a boon so far. What could another degree or two hurt? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (when sea levels were low enough humans were able to cross from Asia to North America) I'm well aware of that and one of the main consequences was that those crossing were not exposed to the diseases of Europe... the Europeans coming over committed one of the first biological genocides by infecting and killing off a large number of the inhabitants. The journey is well discussed in an earlier TV Ontario program series titled 'Origins'... of 35 years back. A recent discovery, of a month ago, takes the first people arriving in North America about 17,000 years earlier, before Beringia... https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/water-wa... Robbing Peter to pay Paul... seems like a good idea... what could possibly go wrong? So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) As far as a couple of degrees, we'll have to wait and find out... it's likely less of an impact where I live, but it could be problematic for millions of others... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote ((unless you're on a low lying island, or Florida)) It's only Florida... and there is something in their water, anyway... but there are likely a couple of other states that are low lying and could be affected. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (dik) ... the Europeans coming over committed one of the first biological genocides by infecting and killing off a large number of the inhabitants. Seriously? Were they supposed to wait for vaccines before making contact with the new world? Dik, think about what you have said. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV #### Quote (Tug) The human race has thrived over the past 400 feet of sea level rise. Why should I be so concerned by 7 more feet? Yeah, and it's rising regardless. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) I did, tug... you should get out more. I was surprised that you knew about Beringia and not the genocide. They came across from a frigid climate across the Bering land bridge and weren't exposed the the diseases that Europe had, and didn't have the antibodies... The Europeans brought over Smallpox and a host of other diseases that they had not encountered... killed them by the millions... I understand the population was in excess of 15 million, prior to the arrival of the Europeans. "Although it is impossible to quantify with any certainty the impact of European contact on New World populations, estimates of the pre-contact population of the Americas have ranged from 8 to 30 million. Between 1492 and 1650 the Native American population may have declined by as much as 90% as the result of virgin-soil epidemics (outbreaks among populations that have not previously encountered the disease), compound epidemics, crop failures and food shortages." https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV You talk like the Europeans we're responsible for introducing the diseases... maliciously. Was it the Europeans fault for coming from the East or the early Americans fault for coming from the West? Perhaps we should stop blaming people for things beyond their control? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (You talk like the Europeans we're responsible for introducing the diseases... maliciously.) You are reading more into it than I intended... diseases were not understood 'back then'... it was a non-intended consequence, but it happened. There may be a few of these coming up in the future. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Maybe we should have isolated the Americas like we do the Sentinelese? What is your end game? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) No end game... I'm just an observer. I can see serious problems on the horizon and no one seems to be the least bit interested... My tagline, borrowed from my son pretty much sums it up... More news: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/08/14/... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV No one is interested? Why should they be? It's likely to have minimal impact on most of our lives. Ironic metallurgist/brimmer seems to be he only person negatively affected by climate change. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Just wait tug... it will take a little more time to see what really happens. There is really very little that the ordinary person can do to alleviate the coming, whatever... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV didn't the returning Spanish bring syphilis with them ? tit for tat ?? "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV ok, 14,000 yeas ago, ok, pre-historic ... yes, yes sealevel rose to close land bridges. But that was due to some step change in the polar icecaps, no? possibly the source of the globally distributed "flood" stories ? I apologise for being lazy ... what was the temp (and CO2 ?) in that time period ... say 20,000 to 10,000 BCE. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) rb... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) More news on the horizon... time to pay the piper? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11112925/... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV One observation about that graph dik is that the CO2 levels rise abruptly and then taper off. Geological record may not be responsive enough to catch the magnitude of the spike if it's duration was short. It's only during the current spike that we have had sensitive instruments. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV thx dik. so during this sealevel change, CO2 was "quite low" ... so not due to high temps (and melting ice caps) ? My point is I think the NASA 4" in 30 years (due to temperature change) is not borne out is the real world. I've seen many tidal gauges which have been "quite" static. "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Dik, there’s a good reason why they don’t extend the CO2 graph back further than that. If they do, the current CO2 levels look fairly modest in comparison. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV You are cutting pasting different instruments with different time constants together to get that CO2 record. Also an honest organisation would have started from 0 on the y axis to put things in proportion (oldest trick in the marketing book). Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) If you take a gander back about 20 million years... 4 times longer than people on earth it's still lower, but who's counting: Greg... it doesn't matter what the starting point is, the graph clearly shows there is an increase. What it doesn't tell you is what is the difference between 350 ppm and 400 ppm... It's not a marketting trick... Are they trying to sell 'global warming'? Just look out the window and see the effects. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV dik, you demean your arguments with this "just look out the window" request. My window shows a beautiful clear day, temperature in the low 20 degrees C. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV So we've now switched to a more meaningful log y axis, but have included scary old RCP 8.5, where the population of Nigeria becomes bigger that of present day China. Presumably they'll all (very) hot bunk. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Hokie... just wait a bit, it will likely change... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Yes, it will be night in around 7 hours. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) With all those changes, Hokie, it will keep you from getting bored. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Can Donald's cheeseburgers be far behind? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/1... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It looks like someone is going to have to cut back a tad... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV They're having a historic monsoon season right now. Perhaps that's a sign of the end of the drought. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) That would be nice... Others may no be so optomistic... https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2022/08/16/lake-mead... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Possible other fallout... https://time.com/6206111/climate-change-anarchy-wh... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Whoda thought... https://www.axios.com/2022/08/16/white-house-clima... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It might be the sign that something is seriously broken... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Another source of carbon... I wasn't aware that wood was used for power generation... https://reneweconomy.com.au/more-emissions-than-co... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV dik, Use your renowned googling prowess. I think most of the wood chips are produced in eastern US states and shipped to Europe. Wonder how the 'carbon footprint' works with that. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I use a type of fastener with a disposable plastic component used for installation. Their biggest user is based out of France. Europe required every single component to be shipped back to USA for disposal. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It looks like the climate change funding bill has another couple of perforations. You wonder if the governments job is to provide for the long term interests of the population, at times. https://qz.com/the-new-us-climate-law-has-a-gigant... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It looks like the Americans are getting it in both ends... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Getting warm in China, too... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/19/china-iss... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Things just keep getting better... https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) There could be an impact on the supply chain for manufactured items: "But an expert told Fortune that the ongoing heat wave is more than just a regional problem, and could have dramatic repercussions worldwide. Because of the specific challenges that heat poses, manufacturing work-arounds that became common during the height of COVID will no longer be possible, potentially leading to even more severe economic outcomes. “These shutdowns have the potential to be equally if not more impactful on supply chains than recent COVID lockdowns,” said Mirko Woitzik, global director of intelligence solutions for Everstream Analytics, a supply-chain insights and risk analytics company." https://fortune.com/2022/08/20/china-heatwave-supp... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) I came across an article on sea level rising. The included map shows the areas of the oceans affected the most: https://scitechdaily.com/tracking-30-years-of-sea-... "“With 30 years of data, we can finally see what a huge impact we have on the Earth’s climate,” said Josh Willis, an oceanographer at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and NASA’s project scientist for Sentinel-6 Michael Freilich. “The rise of sea level caused by human interference with the climate now dwarfs the natural cycles. And it is happening faster and faster every decade.”" So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV this was posted on another thread (or eariler on this one) or something very similar ... it may be a report of the original. But I still question the 4" in 30 years. I know many tidal gauges do not show this. I also question the idea of average sealevel (and also average global temperature). "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV What is the role of an oceanographer at the "Jet Propulsion Laboratory"? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Funny you should ask, Tug... Maybe his sister-in-law owns the plant... dunno, but it is often advantageous to have people of different disciplines working at a facility... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) #### Quote (But I still question the 4" in 30 years.) Tug and I got into a bit of a discussion a bit back regarding the earth 'speeding up'. Tug was correct in that the increase in water should be equatorial which would tend to slow things down... they couldn't explain the reason either... but, the time measurement was correct. The included map shows that the increases aren't just at the equator. I don't know where the melting glaciation seems to be going... some areas of the earth are currently parched, so it's not going there. Maybe it's going to the oceans? This seems like a logical place. I'm interested to know how they determine the value. I suspect it's the statistical summation of a whole bunch of data, and there is a reliability factor associated with it, but I don't know. I suspect strongly that the information is correct, and more intersting is that it is speeding up. Apparently it has a real affect on the tides, too, or maybe the moon is just pulling harder "Future projections are gloomier. Without additional flood management efforts, the frequency of this kind of flooding is projected to double or triple by 2030, and could be as much as 15-fold higher by 2050. This means high-tide flooding could occur 180 days a year in some locations, “effectively becoming the new high tide,” the report reads." So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Sorry dik, I don't appreciate being misled about where my tax dollars go. When I pay to find an organization called jet propulsion laboratory I expect my money to be spent on the field of jet propulsion. Also, what is a "flood day"? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) You pay for politicians... why would you care how government wastes your money? Maybe as part of the space program, they are doing research on tides, or maybe the earth? I suspect a flood day is any day that water reaches a pre-defined flood level or reaches a particular point on land, and the level may vary depending on where you live. What it does mean, more importantly, is that something is changing from what had occurred in past. Looking at the chart it appears that there has been a significant change starting about 1980, assuming there has not been a change in the manner they have been measuring it. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV ok, the number of floods has increased. why use this as a proxy for higher sealevels, when a tidal gauge would show it more directly ? Can you show me a tidal gauge that shows sealevel has increased 4" in 30 years ? "Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !" General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) It really doen't matter what the tidal gauge is reading (it's the typical geotech report disclaimer that the testhole is valid for that one location). If the number of times the level has increased to the point that more land is being flooded and the amount of flooding has been increased, then changes are occuring. These are very likely a result of climate change... or an increased lunar 'pull'. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Units of measure need to have clear and standardized definitions. Flood days lacks these things therefore it is a low quality measurement. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Sure, but a measurement nonetheless. Something has changed, and the chart clearly shows that! The lack of units doesn't invalidate the change as long as the same method is used for all records. So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Where exactly did you get that chart? Annapolis floods due to hurricanes, not tides. Were there no hurricanes between 1960 and 1980? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) I have no idea... maybe the hurricanes are getting worse... but changing, nonetheless, but if the same method of measurement is being used, the chart clearly shows that something is changing, quite a bit since about 1980. The chart was in a NASA article: https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3041/beating-back-th... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV Annapolis is experiencing land subsidence at a rate of 1.1-4.8mm per year. ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV I thought we'd beaten the sea level thing to death, apparently not. 4" in 30 years is ~ 13" per century, nothing special. The tectonic plate that the USA sits on is tilting, with the east coast dropping. The Mississippi in particular is also sinking for well understood reasons. here's the global results https://podaac.jpl.nasa.gov/dataset/MERGED_TP_J1_O... Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? ### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV (OP) Some news about China: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/China-A... and from Politico: "Public and private investment in clean energy in China was$381 billion last year, according to the International Energy Agency. That outstrips all of North America by \$146 billion. The share of electricity generation provided by renewables is higher in China than in the U.S., while the sheer number of solar panels and wind turbines being installed across China leaves their American rivals in the dust."

"Despite being the home of Tesla, the U.S. has also missed the jump on electric vehicles. Chinese buyers bought more electric cars and vans — 3.3 million — in 2021 than the entire world combined bought in 2020. Sales in the first quarter of 2022 then doubled year-on-year. In the U.S., growth has started to ramp up, but from a significantly lower base."

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
China proposing to use 'cloud seeding' it would appear. I seem to recall this was tried a couple of decades back with some unanticipated effects on storm intensity:

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/21/1118683699/china-gr...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
It looks like the handbasket is going to be the way out of climate change:

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/High-Impact-...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
...and maybe the good news, "We've been there before."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11133815/...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

"China proposing to use 'cloud seeding' it would appear."

as a response to drought, then ok (been done in the past), but as a response to climate change ...
oh, good god, no !! haven't we learnt enough about unintended consequences ??

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
We'll have to see how this turns out... desperate times call for desperate measures. What could go wrong?

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

NO! That's the problem. The political left is going to use manufactured desperation to advance their ideology without actually taking action against climate change/making it worse.

The world needs conservation, not upheaval.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Tug... quit with the political right and left... it's a problem for all people. Biden is no longer responsible fot this mess than Trump is. It predates both of them. I'm not sure that Biden's approach will fix it... I'm pretty sure that Trumps approach will not.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Sorry, when I see words like believe and desperation then I know reason is out the window.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
You may not appreciate the potential damage ahead... times could become desperate. I don't know how things will end up. Maybe a tempest in a teapot, maybe something far more serious. That's the real puzzle with climate change. We're in new territory.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
The effect of climate change on marine life:

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3611...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Part of the climate change inertia:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-32412-y

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (nature)

While 66–80% Americans support these policies, Americans estimate the prevalence to only be between 37–43% on average. Thus, supporters of climate policies outnumber opponents two to one, while Americans falsely perceive nearly the opposite to be true.

Wrong conclusion. The author assumes that the "66-80%" of people who CLAIM to support the policies actually do. Like a lot of people, if asked, I support the policies, despite not actually supporting them. It's similar to 90% of Russians "supporting" Putin. If you don't support him, you're in trouble, so support him you do.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Another red herring and missing the point. I have no idea of what the percentages are, or even if Putin's mom likes him.

From appearance, it doesn't seem that anyone is the least concerned about climate change, or whatever you want to call the current extreme weather conditions. I suspect things will get a lot worse in the next decade or so... but, I don't know for sure. As I've noted many times, I think we are in totally new territory, and no one can really predict what will happen. My personal opinion is that it can get 'real ugly'.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

#### Quote (dik)

From appearance, it doesn't seem that anyone is the least concerned about climate change

The link you provided argued that the overwhelming majority of people are.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
That's the link... there doesn't seem to be much activity... like Mark Twain, "Everyone's talking about the weather..."

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

The people who want to do something about it get shunned as deniers for pointing out the absurdities of the CC movement so they stay quiet.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
I'm pretty sure people don't know what to do... there will be a lot of 'false starts' and snake oil. I see what's happened with something minor like Covid... I have no idea of what socio-political events will happen, if they do. I suspect they will, but don't know for sure. There was an intersting article in the Washington Post regarding an unexpected historic methane release off Africa, likely triggered by heated ocean that released a huge amount of trapped methane. The same thing could happen again, or something entirely different. We don't know what all the possible problems are... or maybe some benefits.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

We know what to do, reduce energy consumption with more efficient processes. However, that doesn't contribute to climate justice so the idea gets shunned. We could start by replacing all of our conventional power plants with combined cycle units. That would instantly result in a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions vs. every conventional plant replaced all without even changing the fuel. Combined cycle plants can be built to utilize existing infrastructure and can be built within the lifecycle of the conventional plants.

But, your allies are clearly not interested in this.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
It appears that even places that can use the heat are getting it. This can add a lot of methane to an already CO2 abundant environment:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-32629-x

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

ocean methane is only one source. The permafrost is thought to hold significant amounts of methane too.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
That's correct... from Northern Canada and Siberia... roughly 30x more potent than CO2. I've seen film clips of people igniting methane that has been trapped in ice as bubbles.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Maybe beachfront property is not a good investment?

https://hakaimagazine.com/videos-visuals/in-graphi...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Realestate market certainly contradicts your last example. Remember, it's the coastal elite funding much of the doomsaying you spread. It gets the plebes to support using tax money to build sea walls to protect the wealthy's vacation homes from natural erosion.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Just have to wait a bit, Tug... On another front, for Hokie... beware of those north winds...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/2...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

How about you post an example of something positive today? Something that HAS helped prevent climate change. A piece of legislation passee, a project completed, an improvement made.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Rainwater harvesting? Something positive?

https://www.starnewsonline.com/story/lifestyle/fea...

When I was a youngster and lived in Morris, Manitoba our household water supply was rainwater... it came from the roof, and eavestroughing channeled it through a charcoal filter attached to the outside wall, and from this filter, it went to a large underground concrete cistern. It was pumped from the cistern to the house. My grandparents had a similar setup for their house in town. They worked really well. That was 70 years back...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

we use rainwater as "grey water" ... for watering the garden.

don't think that is having any impact on climate change ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Not really. Water is cheap which means it's not particularly energy intense.

When we start desalinating as California has just committed to, because they can't get any reservoirs through their own environmental impact report process, then water will start to have a negative impact on climate change.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Maybe it's seriously affected by climate change, issues...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

Negative, climate change is expected to bring 20% more water to California.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
We'll have to wait and see... I hope you are correct, but wouldn't be the farm on it.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
They've decided to rename the SW weather phenomenon...

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/dont-call-it-a-drou...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

They? You're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Not at all... for this instance, by 'they' I mean 'some other gender neutral people' that I don't know.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I wonder what "they" would have made of the 1930s dust bowl in the US ? "the beginning of aridification" ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
It's OK, they are not interested in looking after the oceans, either, it would seem. Hold on to your hat, rb... it's not done yet. A century from now this may be looked at like a new 'dustbowl'... maybe not

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

How exactly does AGW cause drought, dik? What comes to your mind when you think "tropical"?

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

It takes heat to get the moisture into the atmosphere...

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I expect rainfall patterns will change ... less in places, more in others, and at different times. This will probably make things difficult for famers, but I expect we'll adapt.

We do know that higher CO2 increases crop yields, so there's that.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I don't understand the logic. CO2 has an insulating effect. We insulate our homes to make their inside weather more consistent and predictable. Why would CO2 insulation be different on Earth?

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Maybe it's insulating effect is causing the earth to get warmer? On a positive note? One of the key actions on climate change is going to have to be a real cutback in things that produce it.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/26/1118719636/drought-...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

TBE, if you can't see the difference between a small system like a house and a vastly complicated system like planetary weather (with so many interactions that we don't understand in detail, if at all), then IDK.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

We have to start small to build our understanding. If insulation evens out the conditions in your home, why wouldn't it do the same on Earth? It seems like AGW should make the weather less severe. It's the temperature differences between the equator and the poles that cause big storms to form.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
That's a start, Tug... massive insulation and sealed homes to reduce heating requirements in cold climates and reduce cooling requirements in hot climates. Just one of many things. No one seems to realise it, but there has to be a real reduction in travel... both by car and by aeroplane. You wonder about putting all that money into infrastructure that may not be there.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

I'll need some clarification on that comment.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

"why wouldn't it do the same on Earth?" ... 'cause the Earth's system is way more complicated than a house, with massive sinks and sources.

Sure you can use a house as a small system to build our understanding of thermodynamics, and yes you can take generalisations from the house model and apply them to the world model. I'd've thought that the main thing more insulation does is to isolate the inner system from the outside. I would not have thought that adding insultation (to the roof and walls) would even out the heat from the kitchen (stove). Sure, eventually the heat will even out, but not because of insulation.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Tug...Clarification is not required. As I noted before, we’re in new territory. We have no idea of where this will take us. On a positive side, it could be a natural occurrence, a mere blip on the geologic time scale. On the other hand, it can have a major upset to the lives we have been living with impacts to be felt everywhere. Once this thing gets ‘out of hand’ we have no idea of how severe it can get. That’s the big problem.

We not only have to find alternative energy sources to fossil fuel, but we have to reduce our consumption. This means cutting back on transportation, automobile as well as air travel. There will have to be major cutbacks. It’s going to cost a fortune; why are we spending money on infrastructure for roads, etc. and air transport? They may be things of the past. Local produce may become the thing of the future so there is not added transportation cost. Manufactured items will have to have a built in longevity and not obsolescence. We can no longer afford to be wasteful. With obsolescence out of the picture, more things will be manufactured locally to reduce costs. The impact could be enormous. What happens to all the manufacturing jobs? With lack of water in some of the major food crop areas, what happens to the food supply? What actions will the ‘starving’ people undertake? Friendly or violent? The problem isn’t just local, it’s global. If things get serious enough, it will lead to global unrest. It could get real ugly.

The example I gave about housing insulation isn’t far fetched. For the last couple of decades Canada has slowly been increasing the insulation requirements for construction. The insulation helps for heating and cooling. Canada’s cooler winters have a major impact on home insulation. Increased heating costs will become a major household cost item.

If the governments are making any plans to address the potential problems, they’re keeping it pretty secret. One of their few legitimate purposes is to look after the long term interests of ‘the people’. They appear to have failed miserably. You see how well the government handled the Covid problem. Covid could pale in comparison. I actually paid my son for permission to use his statement for a tagline; I think it's very fitting.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

dik ... man, we're almost on the same page!?

we don't know where this is going, or even if CO2 is THE issue if "this" is man's impact on the environment.

sure the politics may restrict travel but I think that is a long way off. sure the politics may push for local production, but that is such a massive change I think this too is a long way off.

for the immediate future (my lifetime) I see us optimising the systems we have now, more renewable sources, hopefully less reliance on fossil fuels, maybe a moratorium on coal or maybe such envoronmental protections as to make coal uneconomic ??

either we'll get past this problem (and on to the next ?) or we won't (and civil unrest we result in the collapse of our civilisation).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
CO2 is the main issue... As far as time goes... there has been a marked change in the last decade... I don't know what the next one will be like and if it will be worse or worse by a magnitude of change... it may already be too late. Postponing things by a decade will not likely bring a meaningful change. You may be just delaying a real ugly, and making it uglier by delaying. A 'long way off' may only be a decade... we just have to wait and find out.

If the politicians were serious about it, the next COP conference would be by video, and not a mass meeting. They have no idea of what they are doing... just a big political 'circle jerk' where you have a bunch of politicians standing in a circle, congradulating themselves on what a marvelous job they are doing.

It's not promising... I saw how the world reacted to Covid, and it wasn't good.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

how do you Know CO2 is the Main issue ? 'cause that's what all the links are telling you ?

how about things that we're not really looking at ? land use, species decline, miscellaneous malicious microbes ?? COVID round 2 ??

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
CO2 is the #1 big thing and there is a really good correlation between CO2 levels and the earth's temperature. That's not fake science... it's well established. It's also well established that CO2 levels have risen dramatically in the last century.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Things are Starting to Warm/Heat Up Part IV

(OP)
Time to move on...
thread1618-497988: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part V

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

#### Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

#### Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

#### Resources

Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds
Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Download Now
Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a partâ€™s function at the center of their design considerations. Download Now
Taking Control of Engineering Documents
This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. Download Now

Close Box

# Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

• Talk To Other Members
• Notification Of Responses To Questions
• Favorite Forums One Click Access
• Keyword Search Of All Posts, And More...

Register now while it's still free!