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Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III
6

Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (brimstoner)

That was not a data-based statement! (Does everything need to be?)

I know it wasn't a data based statement. It was a fanciful statement. That was my point - you get on your soap box about "data" and "reality" and "science" but when the data doesn't match your rhetoric you ignore it and plead "Does everything need to be about data?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Tom... the science is there and the anecdotal evidence is there... we just don't know where this wrecking ball is going to stop.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Heating up in more ways than one...

"Wildfire near Yosemite National Park explodes in size to 6,555 acres: Thousands are ordered to evacuate as 400 firefighters battle the blaze that threatens 2,000 homes and businesses"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Dik)

Tom... the science is there and the anecdotal evidence is there...

I’m talking here about the connection between economic status and per capita emissions. Both you and Brimstoner have tried to dismiss the link between economic status and per capita emissions.

High quality of life = high per capita emissions. If we’re going to ignore or dismiss basic facts like that why even bother discussing anything?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (High quality of life = high per capita emissions.)


Maybe something has to change drastically? ponder

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Tomfh, they are right. It's not fair to use per capita CO2 emissions because those of us trying to decrease our foot print need to emit more CO2 in order to do so. Therefore z those of us with the means will pollute more but for good reason.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Dik)

Maybe something has to change drastically?

To cut emissions in any meaningful way then absolutely it does.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

Maybe something has to change drastically?

Yes!

If we are to have a meaningful adult interchange, TBE & Tomfh & a couple others need to stop misunderstanding my meaning, mischaracterizing my positions, miscomprehending the problem of Global Heating in general, and tossing personal insults, then yes something will need to change drastically!

I'll begin by saying sorry I am confusing you. But I don't know how to change that, other than saying it is a matter of education. I've tried simplifying the problem statement but it hasn't seemed to help.

I'm off now to prepare for a day of providing truth to my clients, in exchange for improved economic status for myself. Because my economic status matters a lot. I would like to say it's been fun, but that would be dishonest; in the end maybe I planted a few seeds that will germinate despite the withering heat. I know I really enjoy learning new things!

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

3
I suppose it's possible another new member could show up and prove they're the biggest condescending asshole on this forum, but I doubt it. <shrug>

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote:

matter of education

Did you learn that in marketing or philosophy? I'm going to guess the latter as you're not very good at people.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Gentlemen?, Quit with the personal attacks.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quit encouraging him, dik.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Quit it TBE...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"The planet has absolutely no interest in that metric." ... brimstoner from thread II.

true, see George Carlin's YT video "saving the planet"

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, ask yourself, why are their no engineers in the climate field posting here?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
They probably have better things to do... they're probably very busy. This thread will peter out when all the terrible things become so common place that the news agencies stop reporting the items.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Possible effect caused by changes in the Jet Stream... See 5 min and 8 min marks...

https://abc7chicago.com/extreme-heat-record-climat...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Not at all tug... these things are happening before your very eyes. There has never been a time in my life where such a large amount of 'bad weather' has been happening. It's likely only going to get worse. Take a gander at the clip in the message above in particular at min 5 and min 8. Locate something to refute it and post. My earler tag line questioned if it was science, or the wrath of God... take your pick.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

That's fine that you've made some observations. I said their "ideas" can't stand up to scrutiny. Climate engineers don't exist. Nobody with an ethical mind is going to participate in this social experiment.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Sorry tug, I think your wrong. There are some engineers likely working in the climate related fields. Anything worth studying and investigating likely has an engineer involved. There are also a few climatologists involved, too.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

You forgot to mention (again) that climate scientists know nothing of thermodynamics; besides, it is clearly not even relevant to that field of study.

Danm all experts anyway, and their socialist agenda.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Damn [sic)

all experts anyway, and their socialist agenda.]

Why does trying to save humanity (if thats the intended result) have anything to do with politics?

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Hangover from the Cold War, and implicit or explicit amongst many of the committed Deniers on these threads.

Three generations of slandering liberal political opponents or activists with a 'socialist' or 'commie' label has not disappeared; in fact it has come back into fashion in the US, on conservative Hate Radio, Fox (ahem) News, and antisocial media. Whenever there is any trouble at a demonstration, the MSM routinely lies by attributing it to a 'false flag antifa* operation', based on zero evidence in almost every instance. It works to push the buttons of uninformed and less literate folks who have been marinading in this narrative for so long.

* not a fan in any way of antifa!

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, your attempts at saving the world are really poisoning it. You're not the good guy here. You're letting fear drive irrational decisions.

Brim, I just started a thread that explained climate change as a result of energy consumption and not CO2 output. How is that a denial?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
brims... quit with the politics; there are enough problems without them.
Tugs... I don't think I am, but time will tell. I hope you're right, but have serious doubts. It's not fear, it's a serious and well founded concern. Take a look around you. One of the latest...

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/national-intern...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, redwood and sequoia trees have evolved over millennia to not only tolerate fire but require it to survive. You are not doing your side any favors with these moronic links.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

Background, not politics. People need to learn where the stuff comes from that they casually throw at other people.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

sequoias

Sequoia National Forest



RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Anybody got any solutions? That is what this forum is about. Population control? How?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Brim, I assume you're from the not California CA so I'll forgive your ignorance.





Sequoias have ways endured fire.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

And apparently, you didn't read anything about how hot a fire sequoias can tolerate, which is less than what occurred in the Windy Fire


Quote (https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/10/09/calif....)

In one grove, Dickman counted 29 sequoias that were "just incinerated," he told CNN.

"There were four of those that had burned so hot that they'd fallen over," he said.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

If you look the rings in the photos you may notice that fire WAS a less than 20 year occurrence. Now, fires are less frequent and more hot due to an accumulation of fuel. It's time to rake them forests.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Old Normal, meet New Normal. Oak Fire happening today is '0% contained'.

I seem to more about US affairs than some Americans on here. Thank you NPR and WDETFM for great reporting and great weekend music.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Fires tend to start at zero % contained...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

The Energizer Bunny of dissembling, distraction, disinformation and denial.



It is comforting to know that no battery can run forever.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

We have the same politics re. fires in Australia. The climate activists trying to claim that wildfires/bushfires are an unprecedented phenomena. "The earth is on fire!". Like the flood statistics, the alarmists aren't interested in the historical bushfire records. They consider it "dissembling, distraction, disinformation and denial". So down the memory hole with the old records...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Fires tend to start at zero % contained...)


Tug... I haven't heard anything that illuminating for decades... speaking of heat.,..

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/record-breaki...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (he Energizer Bunny)


He died... they put the batteries in backwards, and he kept coming, and coming, and...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (We have the same politics re. fires in Australia. The climate activists trying to claim that wildfires/bushfires are an unprecedented phenomena.)


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-5389991...

"An inquiry into the recent massive bushfire disaster in Australia has found the country should expect "worse" in the years to come.
The review - which looked at New South Wales (NSW), the worst-hit state - made sweeping proposals aimed at better preparing for future fire seasons.
The blazes began last August and burned for months, killing 33 people nationally and scorching vast areas.
The NSW state government said it would adopt the inquiry's 76 recommendations."

You've been cautioned... what you do about it is 'your baby'.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"Are we still doing 'phrasing'?" - Sterling Archer

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I think it is actually Tom suffering from reversed polarity.

I doubt the people and animals fleeing the Australia fire had time to stop and demand historical records that could have proved the fire was not real. Australia is upside down in more ways than one.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote:

An inquiry into the recent massive bushfire disaster in Australia has found the country should expect "worse" in the years to come.

Yes, like I said we have the same politics in Australia.

We get told the bushfires (and floods) are due to climate change. The people making those climate aren't too keen to discuss the past bushfire and flood records, as it tends to clash with their claims that the floods and fires are unprecedented.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Sequoias have ways endured fire.)


https://wildfiretoday.com/2021/10/01/at-least-two-...

Some smoulder for a couple of years, and others don't quite make it... so, they don't always endure! I just thought of another thing; Maybe conditions are changing, climate wise? pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Yes, like I said we have the same politics in Australia.)


...and I understand the fiddlers in Rome were well received, too. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Brimstoner)

I doubt the people and animals fleeing the Australia fire had time to stop and demand historical records that could have proved the fire was not real.

Where did I claim the fires weren't real? The fires were real. As were these recent floods. As were the fires and floods in the past.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

To be fair, what is happening in Oz is note solely the consequence of historical activity there. It is one of the places that is more extremely affected, starting from a marginal pre-AGW reference point.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Tomfh,

Ask a friend or family member to locate your LITERALIST ON-OFF switch and set it to OFF for a few hours a day. That way you and all of us can get some relief.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (solely)


Maybe largely? pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Tomfh)

Yes, like I said we have the same politics in Australia.

No you do not. I read just enough about Oz to know that politics there are as toxic as the bushfires are hot.



RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I think it is actually Tom suffering from reversed polarity.)


brims... you have to get away from that. It's not conducive to anything.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Sorry dik,

I don't have full control over my bullsh!t detector. I sincerely wish I did.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Brimstoner)

No you do not. I read just enough about Oz to know that politics there are as toxic as the bushfires are hot.

Unsurprising that you consider First Dog a reliable source. I couldn't but help notice that you adhere to the Guardian's language prescriptions; "Global Heating", etc.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

No answers to my request for solutions? I thought so.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

The Guardian tells me what to do and how to speak, yes!
It was either that or one of Rupert Murdoch's rags. You know, the guy who practically handpicks your PMs?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (No answers to my request for solutions? I thought so.)


I don't have one, and I don't know where climate change will 'end up'. Just because I don't have a solution, doesn't mean it's not a problem. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
brims... I actually thought the Guardian was a fairly decent paper. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I don't have full control over my bullsh!t detector. I sincerely wish I did.)


mine's beeping right now... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

mine's beeping right now...

Yeah, your BS beepers go off in the face of any information which clashes with the narrative. Data which shows that floods and fires aren't unprecedented? *BEEP BEEP BEEP. MISINFORMATION ALERT*.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
...on another front:

https://scitechdaily.com/30-less-than-average-anta...

so, it's not just fire.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"Adults die from violence".

You are a special kind of ignorant.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I think narrative doesn't mean what you think it means.

(Note to self: load that expression into autocomplete, because you need to use it so often.)

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
As far as my detector working... it seems to behave itself just fine when information comes in from highly regarded sources.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

The same sources that told you the coronavirus vaccines would prevent infection? The science world has taken some serious blows to it's credibility lately.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
I've never said they prevent... the information clearly noted that they reduced the likelihood the infection would be fatal. The information also indicated that the likelihood of catching it was less. Sorry guy, you have to try harder. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

brimstoner,

Just curious, do you know ironic metallurgist? You sound a lot like him, and both profiles show (Materials) and from Ontario, so I wonder...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Next time I replace my BS detector (it's getting to be more and more frequent), I will upgrade to a model with the Anti-Vax blocking feature.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Ahh yes, because observing that the rationale for vaccination was retrospectively altered when the vaccine failed to do what was promised makes you "antivaxx".

I've had all my vaccinations. I don't opposed vaccination. Yet I'm called anti-vaxxer for noticing the overnight revisions made to the commandments on the animal farm chalkboard.

Same as I'm a climate "denier" despite fully accepting that human CO2 emissions have warmed the planet.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Saw Tug's mention of being banned from the Pub, which is a forum I was aware of but never visited. So I googled it and found it had been removed by the new owners, who also commercialized the site (there went my last www safe space).

Hearing of the serious sh!t they are accused of (by ET veterans with handles I recognize), the total absence of moderation and decorum melting more rapidly than Antarctica, makes me wonder whether I really want to hang around. Non-commercial was the best feature of ET.

Thoughts?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Let's get this back to Climate Change issues. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

SE Australia has had big bushfires since as long as records have existed, modern ones burn less land area but kill more people and burn buildings that weren't around in the 1850s for obvious reasons. So when people say they are the worst ever, they are a bit like the people who claim that the floods are the worst ever, because we didn't used to build on floodplains.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Hokie, you're asking the obvious question. They're kind of like Clark Kent and Superman. They never post together.

Honestly,. I don't know think they're they same person but do believe they both have philosophy degrees. There is something toxic in that major.

Brim, you do understand that decarbonization is a very commercial venture. Energy conservation is not.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Tug... you should be happy. There's more water around:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/07/24/gree...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (SE Australia has had big bushfires since as long as records have existed)


Yes Greg... and there's always been climate. Catch my earlier comment:

"An inquiry into the recent massive bushfire disaster in Australia has found the country should expect "worse" in the years to come.
The review - which looked at New South Wales (NSW), the worst-hit state - made sweeping proposals aimed at better preparing for future fire seasons.
The blazes began last August and burned for months, killing 33 people nationally and scorching vast areas.
The NSW state government said it would adopt the inquiry's 76 recommendations."

I wonder what the 76 recommendations included? Perhaps 'rake the forests'?

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

I wonder what the 76 recommendations included?

The usual rubbish straight out of Yes Minister; Committees, Taskforces, Strategic Leveraging of assets. Have a read for yourself:

https://www.nsw.gov.au/nsw-government/projects-and...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

this train wreck is pathetic !

it's a shame we can't remember the title of the forum "Climate Change Engineering SOLUTIONS".

I figure we are doomed, whether it's climate change, indirect effects of climate change, or the argument over it.

I am reminded of MP's "Argument sketch" ...
"I came here for an argument.
No, you didn't"

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
It could get even more interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/ju...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
The following is opinion only, but is well crafted. I've mentioned that I have no idea of how this will really affect the earth. This article may be an inkling of what to look forward to:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (it's a shame we can't remember the title of the forum "Climate Change Engineering SOLUTIONS".)


To postulate a solution, first you have to identify the problem, and the severity of it. People don't seem to have a handle of the first part. There seems to be a huge disagreement about what the problem really is. Do you have an better definition of the problem? and, it just not the people. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

hokie,
Don't know him outside of here. Consider it might also be a she/her or they/them ;)
Agreement on climate change is not an unusual thing here; it has been the norm for a while (doesn't mean our politicians can't be stupid about it). Outside of the 51st state of Alberta I don't hear professionals still debating it. Must be that woke socialism stuff they put in the water here.

Tug,
Glad you finally admit I am Superman! (BTW another Canadian invention).
That's funny, because Fun Fact: I actually considered 'Man of Steel' for my handle, and even putting it on my business card.
Perry White sounds like the right role for you in this climate change melodrama...

Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen TugboatEng and Lex Luthor in the same room? There you go!


"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

A senior meteorologist was on NPR this morning explaining that subtle changes are affecting the jetstream, causing high pressure systems (those are the hot ones) to get stuck in position for many days. Another thing he says the climate model underestimated. Humidity is also higher, making it even less bearable.
So many large heat waves happening concurrently around the planet; it would have to be wishful thinking or outright denial to imagine this does not herald a New Normal.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Conspiracy at the highest levels...tell us, who do you think is bribing this scientist?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Quote (it's a shame we can't remember the title of the forum "Climate Change Engineering SOLUTIONS".)

To postulate a solution, first you have to identify the problem, and the severity of it. People don't seem to have a handle of the first part. There seems to be a huge disagreement about what the problem really is. Do you have an better definition of the problem? and, it just not the people.)


normally yes, but in this case we can identify a target problem.

1) In order to combat climate change, I propose to reduce CO2 emissions by ...

2) In order to mitigate the effects of climate change, I propose to protect against sealevel rise by ...

or better ...

To protect the future, I propose we ...

now we have a whole different set of issues to address ...
a) develop offworld colonies ?
b) develop the underdeveloped economies ?
c) develop new energy sources (fusion) ?
d) develop better "renewable" energy sources ?
...

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (subtle changes are affecting the jetstream)


I understand that's the cause of the recent hot spell in Europe and the US... I posted a link to that above, somewhere... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Sorry rb... it's far greater than that. We have to seriously look at our life style and cut back. We also have to find 'real' alternatives to energy. The disposable attitude has to go... and, that's just the beginning...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Too many people, and growing. Solutions to that?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

The usual answer - less of the other people.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (hokie66 (Structural)25 Jul 22 19:27
Too many people, and growing. Solutions to that?)

...
see Ukraine experiment !?

Quote ([dik)

sorry rb... it's far greater than that. We have to seriously look at our life style and cut back.]
ok dik, propose that as an engineering solution. eg stop burning FFs today. This will lead to an economic crash that make the great Depression look like a picnic. Ensuing wars and civil unrest will probably lead to a 1/2-ing of the world's population, and possibly another 1/2-ing as crop yields adjust.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Ukraine, chinavirus, that's a start...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

and now monkey pox ?

how did the closing narration for "Rocky Horror Picture Show" go ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
or The Firesign Theatre, "Beat the Reaper" pipe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3zZ_ih0Jpc

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Stealing an idea from another part of the site, perhaps more guns can be a part of the solution. Reduce the population in crowded cities.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Hokie...

Quote (Ukraine, chinavirus, that's a start...)


From an earlier post (2-1/2 years back) on another site...




So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Reduce the population in crowded cities.)


The approach that's being taken might amount to that... it's too difficult to predict. Mother nature may not be so kind as a simple bullet.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

Sorry rb... it's far greater than that. We have to seriously look at our life style and cut back. We also have to find 'real' alternatives to energy. The disposable attitude has to go... and, that's just the beginning...

All things considered I agree with you. The rate at which we're consuming energy and other resources isn't sustainable and is doing a lot of damage to the planet.

My concern is the ones proposing the solutions are invariably the sort of people who know what's best for all of us. The sort of people will not hear a word of dissent. The sort of people like XR and Occupy and their media supporters who think they have the right to block me as I go about my private business:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Yes tom, one of my concerns is that it could get really ugly as people starve and die of thirst... and move to neighbouring lands...

Just a recent post...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11046587/...

and what if it gets a lot worse? We don't have a clue about how this will end, or even if it will end. The earlier link may be a pre-cursor:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul...

My son was unhappy about me using his one eMail statement as my current tagline, but I paid him some money and he is happy with me using it...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Why would anyone want to reduce emissions... the idea is preposterous... [sarky hat off] It may be one of many things that will have to change... all types of transportation may experience a few 'big bumps' in the future.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (My concern is the ones proposing the solutions are invariably the sort of people who know what's best for all of us.)


That's a real big part of the problem... I wouldn't trust most of those piloting the Ships (of State) to look after my kids. They are not up to simple tasks, let alone difficult ones.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, it's a problem of creating rules with no clear path to compliance. The rules will adversely impact 75% of the world's cargo fleet. And we thought the pandemic related shortages were bad. Starting in 168 days, expect things to get much worse.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
I suspect that not only shipping will be affected... I hope that people aren't the new lemmings. Another concern I have is that those in power may panic and scramble, and do something really silly (with apologies to Monty Python). We are likely heading into totally new territory. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Back to tall sailing ships. May put you out of a job, Tug. Never heard of a tugboat relying on wind. But I suppose that makes about as much sense as base load power for cities relying on wind, or the sun for that matter.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

They are not up to simple tasks, let alone difficult ones.

Yes but up here in the (decreasingly) Frozen North they are making danm sure you get your pronouns correct. The logical extremes resulting from illogical extremists dictating language norms is fines and jail terms. But I digress.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
brims... scary, eh? ponder

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Indeed; I am not exagerrating when I tell you I can be fired in a minute for a single 'incorrect thought' expressed on the www or in email. All quite risky when you figure out that social media is basically a mind reading technology.

It's all become a bit Cultural Revolutiony and fundamentalist.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

It all makes sense now.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Logic's not your strong suit is it Tug?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
brims... Quit it!

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Sorry dik,

Faulty and false logic informs most of the Denialist’s objections, and it has to be called out.

I can’t do the work of separating the BS from the cherry picked facts; only the Deniers can do that.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Can we return to the topic of the forum ... Engineering solutions ...

Let us assume ...
1) Climate change is driven by humankind's CO2 emissions.
2) Continuing to produce CO2 emissions is an existential threat to human civilisation.

One and only one rule ... no reply "but it's fact, don't assume".

With this as a problem statement, can we propose solutions.

maybe ...

1) In order to combat climate change, I propose to reduce CO2 emissions by ...

2) In order to mitigate the effects of climate change, I propose to protect against sealevel rise by ...

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Can we return to the topic of the forum ... Engineering solutions ...)


Including the issues the engineering solution will have to address... sure... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
It seems to be starting, a little bit, but not likely significant. This may be a sign of the future, though with other items coming on line.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/07/25/france-o...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote:

Can we return to the topic of the forum ... Engineering solutions ...

This whole thread, both parts, exists to post a link to every single weather related event that happens and blame it solely on climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

It's a method of censorship. Drown out any meaningful comments with noise.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Hokie66 says he "never heard of a tugboat relying on wind."

"The late Capt. Lane Briggs ' Tugatine is a favorite flagship for sail-assisted working vessels and is credited with a 1984 circumnavigation of Virginia...It's the world's only purpose-built sailing tugboat and uses its sails to save fuel."

https://www.pilotonline.com/entertainment/article_...

The article didn't mention that Capt. Briggs was the founder of SAILA in the 1970s, to promote sail-assisted workboats. I have their brochure somewhere.



RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I concede. But am still trying to figure out how you can circumnavigate Virginia.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (blame it solely on climate change.)


Not blaming it, it's a consequence of climate change, and likely going to get worse... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

Not blaming it, it's a consequence of climate change

How is that not blaming it?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"This whole thread, both parts, exists to post a link to every single weather related event that happens and blame it solely on climate change."

and we can see how well that has gone. Hence, lets assume climate change is real and driven by CO2, what engineering solutions can we think of ?

and yes, as dik has pointed out, what are the issues with these.

I suspect that the climate change is such that if we stopped burning FFs today, it would take well over 100 years for the level of CO2 to return to its natural level (whatever that means ... lets say it means pre-industrial levels, like 280ppm). I suspect that maybe things have already been set in motion (like potentially thawing of the permafrost) that may make this outcome unachievable. I think the social and economic cost of such a response is so unrealistic that this is not seriously an option, particularly if we don't see us achieving the target ?

I suspect that we should not continue burning FFs at the ever increasing rate we are.

Then we should do "something".

Stop burning coal, or use a significant part of the energy produced to recover most of the CO2. I don't know coal PPs ... how reasonable is this ?

Build more nukes ... but will take 20+ years to come online.

Double the renewable power output ... every 5 years ?

I think many of the things we are doing (like SAF) are little more than window dressing.
I think many things we do (like carbon trading, or zero carbon offsets) are less than window dressing (and maybe only marginally above scam/fraud).

thoughts ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Well, this is why I started the other thread. The heat is here. How can we radiate it in to space. I was making a jab at my own side with the space lasers comment but maybe solar powered microwave arrays that supercharge albedo are the solution? Seems more useful than storage.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (rb1957)

Stop burning coal, or use a significant part of the energy produced to recover most of the CO2. I don't know coal PPs ... how reasonable is this?

Not reasonable. Coal provides over a third of the world's electrical power, and the total amount of electricity generated by coal continues to increase. Coal is still growing faster than it is being replaced by renewables. Peak Coal is long way off.

Quote (rb1957)

Build more nukes ... but will take 20+ years to come online.

20 years is NOTHING. It's really weird that people think 20 years is too long. It will be a miracle if emissions reduce at all in the next 20 years. Emissions have increased 50% in the last 20 years despite everyone promising to cut by 20% by 2020.

It has taken centuries for our energy systems to develop to this point and it will take centuries to move beyond fossil fuels.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

One solution that is being used is coal gasification. From Wiki:

"The gasification process makes coal react with pure oxygen and steam to produce synthetic gas, or syngas. Syngas burns cleaner than burning directly the coal and stripping the pollutants out of the exhaust gas. And syngas may be used to fire a combustion turbine. The combustion turbine exhaust gases are then routed through a large heat recovery steam generator that is used in conjunction with a steam turbine to further increase the plant's efficiency."

This is baseload power and uses a resource that the US and other countries have plentiful stocks of and an existing mining and transportation infrastructure. Additionally, a coal pile is a big battery of sorts that can sit outside in all weather and be utilized.

Not perfect, but better.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
To put blame on it, it is necessary for it to have done something wrong. This is not the case.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (to every single weather related event)


Not every... just the 'big' ones. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I suspect that we should not continue burning FFs at the ever increasing rate we are.
Then we should do "something".
Stop burning coal, or use a significant part of the energy produced to recover most of the CO2. I don't know coal PPs ... how reasonable is this ?
Build more nukes ... but will take 20+ years to come online.)


A big part of the solution will be the reduction in our dependence on coal and oil; this is not being addressed, it would seem. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (thermionic1)

One solution that is being used is coal gasification.

The US government has been pumping money into this idea since at least the 1970s and there’s not much to show for it.

The horrific impacts of mountaintop removal alone should be sufficient reason to stop using coal for any reason. Then what is done with the leftover solid?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Another concern, a lot of snakeoil salesmen will be coming out of the woodwork...

In another vein, more fresh water on the horizon:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/scientists-measu...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Tomfh)

20 years is NOTHING.

20 years is less more than the time we have to start turning this around.

Dismiss me as ‘alarmist’ but when there’s a fire in the building I pull the alarm.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"A big part of the solution will be the reduction in our dependence on coal and oil; this is not being addressed, it would seem."

ok, so what engineering solutions would reduce our dependence on coal and oil (or FF) ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"20 years is less than the time we have to start turning this around."

yes, I agree, so building nukes now would help, yes?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (ok, so what engineering solutions would reduce our dependence on coal and oil (or FF) ?)


A drastic reduction in the use of these for a start. Alternate energy sources will have to be found and implemented. I'm not sure about the 20 years. I think this is just politicospeak to avoid having to do anything. Perhaps other engineers out there can offer a solution.

Quote (yes, I agree, so building nukes now would help, yes?)


It's like chicken soup... it can't hurt... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Nuke is the worst if climate heating is caused by actual heat generation.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (TBE)

if climate heating is caused by actual heat generation.

It’s not and you know it.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

It's an emerging theory.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"I'm not sure about the 20 years. I think this is just politicospeak to avoid having to do anything." ... 20 years was my guess at the time needed to bring nukes online.

"Alternate energy sources will have to be found and implemented." ... for an engineer this is "politicospeak". An engineering solution could be double investment in renewables (and research into other forms) ... and fund this investment with an additional gas tax.

I would like to redirect 1% of the defense budget to fusion energy research (but I figure Ukraine has put paid to that idea).

"It's like chicken soup... it can't hurt." ... yes, it can ... it can burn you !

@TBE ... nukes are no worse than any other power generation (if the generated power is the problem).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Nuclear power utilizes low efficiency saturated steam cycles and uses steamed ups to control output. It produces much more waste heat per kilowatt hour than conventional fueled power plants.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Aether was an emerging theory too.
Then it went away, and today physics students ask “what were they thinking?”

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

@TBE ... ok, nukes are inefficient at extracting power (and have a lot of waste heat. but the power they generate eventually becomes heat. so I thought your point was all energy extracted ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (brim)

Aether was an emerging theory too.
Then it went away, and today physics students ask “what were they thinking?

Bingo!

rb1957, It's the total power of the fuel. Whether it leaves the generator as electricity or is blown out the exhaust pipe, it all contributes to heating the environment. The effect is delayed if you store some in batteries. Since the temperatures of all of this waste heat is low, little makes it out of the atmosphere as radiation.

The studies I have found correlating heat generation to warming make an large assumption. They assume that all of the heat is absorbed a very thin layer near the surface. 50m in the atmosphere and 0.125m in the sea. This seems wrong at first but when we're only talking 1° of heating there really isn't a lot of convective force to move that heat vertically so it makes sense to assume it will stay low.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I have no words

flush

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

That's because you keep giving them to me. Perhaps you should consider keeping some to yourself.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"Whether it leaves the generator as electricity or is blown out the exhaust pipe" ... ok, so we're agreed. Then nukes are worse than FF PPs 'cause there's more waste heat (for the same useful energy output).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
We are in a new 'space' here. I thought you were up to speed with that... there has to be a conservation of energy with electrical power maximised. The waste heat has to be stored and re-used during cold months, as a possible solution.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Then nukes are worse than FF PPs 'cause there's more waste heat (for the same useful energy output))


Maybe not if you can store and use the waste heat... we are in new territory and lots of things have to be evaluated. If things turn south we could be looking at some horrendous problems that we don't have already.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

This makes me think there must have been a lot of nuke or other plants driving peak temperature in the interglacial Eemian period, and that atmospheric heat trapping was not very significant. However no archaeological traces have been found so far. (Or are the authorities keeping that information secret?)

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

rb1957,
Please don’t confuse the issue with your facts

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

You might be on to something there brim. A significant amount of heat comes from radioactive decay within the Earth's crust.

Quote:

Heat Flow
There are basically two sources of heat for the interior of the Earth:
Heat produced by radioactive decay of unstable isotopes
Heat left over following the formation and differentiation of the Earth
The contribution of radioactive heating can be understood by reference to the following two tables. The first shows the energy produced per year from the decay of Uranium, Thorium and Potassium in granite, basalt and peridotite, rocks characteristic of the continental crust, oceanic crust and mantle respectively. From this table, it ia apparent that differentiation resulted in the radioactive isotopes being primarily concentrated in the continental crust. We would thus expect radioactive heat production to be highest in the continents.

https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~drt/Classes/201_99/R...

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I’m gaining a grudging admiration for your skill at shifting the topic by branching off from a single word. You could have made a good medieval theologian.

You might enjoy the 2021 film Everything Everywhere All the Time.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I have been quite consistent. I think it is wrong to base climate change models solely on CO2! Here we are exploring other contributing factors.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
[Updated] A big one, if anyone is curious:

Preamble
If you do not think that climate change is happening or that it might be severe, there’s no point in reading this.

Some first steps:

The world has to agree that climate change is ‘happening’ and at an accelerated rate. It’s serious, this could be the beginning of the next mass extinction. There are numerous potential problems that need to be addressed.

The world has to come to an agreement that the increased carbon footprint is largely responsible for climate change and that to mitigate this is it essential that the carbon footprint be reduced and everyone has to work to that end. What happens when responsible countries reduce their carbon footprints and other irresponsible countries refuse to? What happens when the State of Florida or Texas doesn’t want follow the Federal mandate? There could be huge unexpected changes; how are the people going to react to this? There’s no rocket science here. We don’t know what the end result of climate change is or how it’s going to end. Changes are occurring in decades which normally take millenia to accomplish. The weather is likely going to become more severe. Records are being broken far more often and by greater values; the increases are no longer slightly incremental. The increases are orders of magnitude.

There was a recent huge increase in climate change funding by the US. On first glance this was a welcomed improvement. Unfortunately there were a lot of caveats that clearly showed the US is not at all interested in reducing the carbon footprint. This type of ‘faux action’ may be indicative of the activity in the near future. Eventually some type of definitive action will likely have to be undertaken.

The effects of climate change can impact the earth is several ways. Some of these effects will be increased sea level. Estimates about the increase, vary, but can be as high as 70’. Some countries, near sea level, will be inundated. Other countries may lose a substantial part of their shoreline. Some areas may have to construct ‘seawalls’ or barriers to protect cities. The substantial source of this ‘new found’ water is a consequence of the polar icecaps thawing. In addition to the polar caps thawing there has been an increase in the thawing of inland glaciers. The thawing of these may impact the water supply of many nations that rely on the seasonal meltwater provided by glaciation. In addition to the increase in sea level caused by polar caps melting, there will be an addition effect caused by the thermal expansion of water due to its increased temperature. Many countries are experiencing increased frequency and increased levels of flooding.

Another impact will be large areas of the earth may warm greatly. This can cause major droughts and large areas of the earth will no longer be arable. Food production may suffer greatly. This may cause some major geo-political changes if nations starve and the land is no longer suitable to live on. Some areas of Europe are experiencing temperatures that greatly exceed those earlier recorded. This increase is a matter of a few degrees, not fractions of a degree as is usually encountered.

Many parts of the world are experiencing drought conditions and some of the major rivers are shrinking significantly. On the continental United States, areas of the southwest have been experiencing drought conditions for several decades. One of the major waterways in that area, The Colorado river that sources the Hoover Dam and provides water and hydro for millions of people is rapidly ‘drying up’. Future declines may result in the Hoover Dam, no longer providing electric power or needed water for household use or irrigation. There is the remote possibility that the Colorado river may stop flowing.

Unfortunately the increased heat is not uniform and the northern areas are experiencing 2 to 3 times the average temperature increase. For example, last year (2021) parts of Siberia, Russia had record temperatures in excess of 30ºC. The increase in temperature has an adverse effect by thawing existing permafrost. Permafrost contains large amounts of methane frozen in it. Methane has a much greater effect on climate change than the release of CO2. For comparison, “Since CO2 is being used as the reference, it has a GWP (Global Warming Potential) of one. Methane has a GWP of between 28 and 36 over 100 years, according to the EPA.” Because of the long term effect of methane, it can be considered as the ‘gift that keeps on giving’, again with unpredictable results.

The drought conditions cause the vegetation to dry significantly. In the event of a fire, this allows the plant material to burn more vigourously. Large areas of the countryside can be consumed by large bush and forest fires. These increase the temperatures as well as increase the carbon footprint. Many areas of the world have experienced an increase in the number and size of these burnings. In the southwest United States, they have very large and old trees called Sequoias that have survived numerous exposures to fire. Some of these has succumbed to the new climate changes.

Another impact may be the effect on overall weather that may occur with the weather patterns changing. This may cause major flooding over extended areas. This canl have a major impact on already developed areas that have not been designed for this amount of precipitation. It could also have a major impact on food crops, etc.

In an extreme, some areas may become markedly colder if climate change has an impact on ocean currents. An example of this change would be a change in the intensity of the Gulf Stream flow. This has been modelled by a program called AMOC. Northern Europe and the UK could become quite a bit colder without the warming effects of the Gulf Stream.

There are numerous other outcomes, that likely haven’t been investigated yet. The above may not occur, but there is the strong indication that some or all may ‘happen’.

So, how is the world going to reduce the carbon footprint? There has to be a reduction in the use of fossil fuels, mostly coal and oil. This will have a big effect on several areas: transportation, shipping, travel, agriculture, etc.

Transportation by air, both commercial and private will have to change to reduce fossil fuel. The amount of change is uncertain, but it could be significant. What will the government do for infrastructure work on airports, if many of these are phased out? What of all the surplus commercial and private aircraft that will become available. National and international travel will be affected. There’s the potential for huge changes; the effects will only be determined over time. Air transportation may have to be replaced by high speed rail; I’m referring to speeds in excess of several hundred kph. It’s a big change from air transport.

There was a recent article about Canada investigating a high speed train hyperloop electric train, with anticipated speeds of over 600 mph. Experimental only, but this may become transportation of the future. With hydro power which is low carbon footprint this might be the preferred long distance transport of the future.

Unless wind powered, even private yachts might be affected or become a ‘part of the past’.

Transportation by private vehicles may also change significantly. Will people have to give up their vehicles. What will the government do for infrastructure work on roadways, bridges and interstates. Serious restrictions may have to be placed on automobile transportation. Limits on fuel consumption may have to be implemented. This could restrict the size of automobiles as well as their engines. It’s not just a matter of letting fuel prices reach their supply/demand value. Those with little or no money will be penalised. There may have to be a dramatic increase in public transportation and a large reduction in private automobile transportation.

Shipping of commodities and food products will likely have to change. This will include national and international shipping. Food may have to be grown locally and the selection may be restricted in future. Household items may have to be produced locally to minimise transportation costs. Manufactured items will have to last longer. We will not be able to continue this disposable lifestyle. This will result in a reduction in manufacturing.

What will become of conventions and international events? What will become of these with travel restrictions? Even the people holding climate change conferences are still ‘flying and meeting’; Properly, these could be held by teleconference. Thousands of people would have to travel.

The same goes with sporting events. With travel restrictions how will travel across the country easily to taken in the next World Series? There could be a serious impact on professional sports. What about events like Nascar and Formula 1?

The construction industry may change to reduce the carbon footprint. The carbon footprint can be reduced by using less energy for heating and cooling buildings be increasing the amount of insulation. Building materials can be selected to reflect the carbon footprint required for their production. More recycling will have to occur and the ‘carbon cost’ of using various products will have to be evaluated with a greater value placed on the actual building envelope.

Alternative energy sources will have to be found and improved on. The materials for doing this have to be ‘friendly’ or you may be replacing problems with bigger problems. This can be wind, photo voltaic, or nuclear. There are downsides to nuclear power, mainly the waste heat generated. It may be possible to use the waste heat and store it for heating in the colder months. All matters of energy production and reduction have to be reviewed in detail.

In closing, you can have a million fatalities due to covid, this could have been drastically reduced, and there was no government intervention. With the same attitude, you don’t know how this will play out with climate change. There is a huge inertia not to do anything because of the huge cost, the huge unknown changes and the huge uncertainty of it. There will be a lot of snakeoil salesmen coming out of the woodwork. You have to be careful about this because it’s possible that some ‘far fetched’ ideas may be workable.

It is possible that none of the above will happen, the downside is that we are looking at the next extinction event. When we were youngsters, we were taught that dinosaurs became extinct because they didn’t have a significant brain (from lessons 65 years ago, things have changed). They were on earth for approximately 170 years. People have been on earth for about 6 milion; we have a bit to go, and Mother Nature just doesn’t care. Engineers will be needed to address the potential of these events and finding means of mitigating them. How do you react to a ‘thing’ that may be catastrophic?

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Who wrote that?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
I did... not copied from anywhere and there are a few grammatic errors, that I just caught. It's not necessary going to happen, but it gives you an inkling of the problem if it does. I will build on it over time, as I think of things. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I'm beginning to think that a mass extinction may be beneficial.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

What if we accept climate change as inevitable and instead of wasting resources on green projects focus on moving everything 70 feet higher?

I doubt anybody in Atlantis drowned. Maybe Noah can build another Ark. Remember, Noah didn't build the Ark during a storm.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Brimstoner)

20 years is less than the time we have to start turning this around.

Yes I know the rhetoric. “We only have 782 days to act”, etc. It doesn’t change the reality of how long a transition will actually take, and how brief 20 years really is.

The alarm was pulled almost 40 years ago now. Carl Sagan gave his address to congress about the situation we face. The alarm accelerated quickly from there, leading to Rio summit and Kyoto protocols within a decade or so. Another 30 years has quickly sped by, our emissions have increased another 50% since then.

And you won’t be happy with 20 years? Crazy. 20 years is the blink of an eye given the task at hand. It’s going to take centuries.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (TBE)

Noah didn't build the Ark during a storm.

No he didn’t!
He got advance warning, and he heeded it!
All the neighbours (the flood denialists) mocked him, saying “why are you building that stupid boat?”

Try to guess the moral of the story!

You are better at arguing against yourself than anyone else here.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Noah building his ark was likely a lifetime endeavor. He did not have advanced warning of a storm. That was during the time period where sea levels rose 400 feet. He probably saw the water levels rising and or had a flock trapped in a newly islanded pasture

If you think Noah's ark building was weather related, how did he get advanced warning of a storm 10+ years in the future when my weatherman can't do 5+ days?

I don't care about the moral of the story, that is irrelevant to this conversation.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I'm beginning to think that a mass extinction may be beneficial.)


There's a real downside to that... a lot of other species may go... and conditions on earth may never be the same to create life, again. That may be beneficial. I don't know if it will happen, only that there is a reasonable chance.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (What if we accept climate change as inevitable and instead of wasting resources on green projects focus on moving everything 70 feet higher?)


What happens when the temperatures in the southern states are +60C, and their water is gone? A little short sighted, I would suggest. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (The alarm was pulled almost 40 years ago now.)


Ken McLachlan, an electrical engineer, from the University of Southampton, I knew aluded to that nearly 60 years back when on one of his tapes on cybernetics he mentioned that we may already be on the Slippery Slope down. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Yes I know the rhetoric.)


Chicken Little, only has to be right the once... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Canada usually doesn't settle things in court... we'll see where this goes... maybe something for the Americans to get involved with:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/tom-mulcair-the-st...

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
...maybe even heat up?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/aviation-emissions...

Maybe people are starting to act? pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I'm picturing little 7-year old Tug arguing with his Sunday School teacher about what really went down with the Lord and Noah, in detailed technical terms, including the climate change weather report for that day in history.

cat2cat2 mousemouse bullbull monkeymonkey bunnybunny elephantelephant

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

and once again we can't get any where near engineering solutions.

dik, I get the passion you have for this, but AFAICR no one is saying "stop burning FFs", 'cause the impact is certainly enormous against the possibility of extinction. If the "cure" is going to kill off 90% of us, I don't think many would go for it. Maybe the disease will kill off 90% of us ?

Of a certainty weather/climate things (storms, rainfall patterns, temperature, etc) are going to change in the future ... maybe more than in the past and maybe not ... we'll have to wait and see.

We don't even know what to address (hence we can't formulate any reasonable responses).

Maybe the ice caps will melt ... maybe, maybe not ? Maybe they'll melt as the weather patterns around the poles change (and no longer trap the cold air in the poles).

Maybe CO2 is the root of our demise, maybe it's something else. My money is still on "civil unrest".

Remember too we are part of the natural world. Maybe this is our role to play ? Mess about with FFs, go extinct, and let cockroaches and twinkie bars rule the world.

I suspect that the politics will play out. We'll do some actions to mitigate some of the affects. These will probably change decade by decade as political parties in power change and want to do something different than their predecessor. At random times we'll do nothing ... the people sick and tired of taxes will vote in a "denier" party on a "reduce taxes" and "trim the fat" ticket.

Write all the essays you like, it is good for your soul. I suspect that trying to get people to see your "obvious" "facts" will on the most part be frustrating.

@TBE, solar cells don't generate waste heat, so maybe a good source ? Similarly geothermal. Hydro is pretty efficient. I agree nukes create a lot of waste heat, that yes could be recovered

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Solar cells reduce albedo so they aren't exactly free in terms of heat.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I'm beginning to think that a mass extinction may be beneficial.)


I came across an article tonight that indicates that after mass extinctions, the resulting critters are faster, better and more able to adapt. My apologies, sir...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (dik, I get the passion you have for this,)


No passion... just a pile of potentials, and many of them not good. I'll have shed my mortal coils before this takes off; I may experience a little of it. What I've seen so far is in keeping with what I understand.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
I don't know what this means... it could be good. Based on past experience, I'm not so sure. pipe

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/27/manchin-s...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Farmers know it, you can't do the same thing year after year. A little mass extinction is good for the health of their fields. They call it "crop rotation"

Nature thrives on cycles.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Sorry Tug... mass extinction is a little different than crop rotation. With commercial growers, crop rotation is practiced less and less. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
...the show must go on:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/28/clim...

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
How the Jet Stream affects temperatures:

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/27072022/jet-st...

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
a sign of the times, and it could get a lot worse:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11057399/...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Tomfh - I think your comments are reasonable. I tend to agree, expecting to "be green" in 10-20 years is completely unreasonable. It simply can't be done without massive and total world upheaval.


On the lighter side, if anyone wants to keep throwing out politicospeak for how to solve this mess then it should include calls for inventing a Star Trek like transporter. That combined with fusion power would solve all the worlds transportation CO2 emissions.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

ah! an engineering "solution" !

a "problem" with the transporter ... why do you need to step onto a pad to leave (or return to) the ship but the other end of the transport is anywhere (with no height incumbrance, with stable floors) ?? and how come the stance changes (you arrive on the ship standing, or sometimes lying, on the floor ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

You can have all the ‘engineering solutions’ you want, but they need to pass through the sphincter called governments. (Considering governments are populated by a-holes who talk a lot of sh!t, I think sphincter is an apt metaphor.)

Before you even hit that barrier there is the practical barrier of too much cost and too little time. By inaction we have decreased our options and increased the scale of the disruption.

Oh I should add, the crisis is not just greenhouse gases, but habitat loss, ecosystem destruction, accelerating species extinction, plastics and forever chemical proliferation, unsustainable agricultural practices, wars, urbanization, air pollution, corruption, various health epidemics (Covid, opioids, diabetes, cancer, respiratory illness). Probably the most acute issue is the group mental illness known as the internet, specifically ’social’ media. These are all interrelated.

Democracy is not fit for purpose, totalitarian regimes even less so.

Until we figure out self-governing and self-regulation, and turn away from our deeply ingrained perpetual growth mindset, events and natural consequences will determine what the outcome looks like. Right now prospects do not look good.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"Oh I should add, the crisis is not just greenhouse gases, but ..." completely agree. Human interference with the natural world is multi-facetted. But this is too complicated to address so people pick a single issue ... which may not be the critical one. I agree that sometime in the future Nature is going to stage her own intervention !

That said, lets enjoy the time we have. (there's some sarcasm for you ... watch the brick-bats come flying !)

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I tend to agree, expecting to "be green" in 10-20 years is completely unreasonable. It simply can't be done without massive and total world upheaval.)


The problem is that 10 to 20 years may not solve the issue... I honestly don't know how this will play out. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (By inaction we have decreased our options and increased the scale of the disruption.)


That may sum it up...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

choosing not to choose (or to act in this case) is a choice.

It happens everywhere in life ... you can see a potential problem forming ahead.
Carry on regardless (or irregardless) and encounter the problem, and people say "I told you so".
Carry on and don't encounter the problem and people say "I told you so".

we tend to be very smart in hindsight.

How did we react to CFCs in the 90s ?
The key was there were alternatives that were acceptable.
Maybe China and India (and Russia ?) are still using CFCs, but most of the developed nations aren't (AFAIK)
AFAIK the reduction is (possibly) having a good result (I'm not sure about the causal link, maybe the ozone hole would have "repaired" itself without us).
Maybe the ozone "hole" was a natural thing going about it's natural cycles. Maybe finding ionised Cl is directly linked to our CFCs and so we did the right thing.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Maybe China and India (and Russia ?))


These countries are used as an excuse for doing nothing... In reality the US per captia carbon footprint is nearly twice that of China and the Indian one is nearly 1/10. I'm not sure how Russia is... Canada's per capita value is higher than the US.
Added Russia...




So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

my comment was in egard to CFC ban. maybe they dragged their heels on that too ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Sorry... China, as I understand is one of the worst CFC producers.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

The Montreal Protocol show that concerted effort and international cooperation is possible, any it proved effective. Sadly though it seems to be an exception.

People tracking the ozone layer found a change in the trend in 2010 that showed that CFCs were being produced in east Asia. This was eventually linked to rogue factories in China, which fits with the widespread industrial corruption there.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

accordin to wiki ...
"Because the only CFCs available to countries adhering to the treaty is from recycling, their prices have increased considerably. A worldwide end to production should also terminate the smuggling of this material. However, there are current CFC smuggling issues, as recognized by the United Nations Environmental Programme (UNEP) in a 2006 report titled "Illegal Trade in Ozone Depleting Substances". UNEP estimates that between 16,000–38,000 tonnes of CFCs passed through the black market in the mid-1990s. The report estimated between 7,000 and 14,000 tonnes of CFCs are smuggled annually into developing countries. Asian countries are those with the most smuggling; as of 2007, China, India and South Korea were found to account for around 70% of global CFC production,[20] South Korea later to ban CFC production in 2010.[21] Possible reasons for continued CFC smuggling were also examined: the report noted that many banned CFC producing products have long lifespans and continue to operate. The cost of replacing the equipment of these items is sometimes cheaper than outfitting them with a more ozone-friendly appliance. Additionally, CFC smuggling is not considered a significant issue, so the perceived penalties for smuggling are low. In 2018 public attention was drawn to the issue, that at an unknown place in east Asia an estimated amount of 13,000 metric tons annually of CFCs have been produced since about 2012 in violation of the protocol.[22][23] While the eventual phaseout of CFCs is likely, efforts are being taken to stem these current non-compliance problems."

and apparently we've "only" reduced CFC output by 10% ?? ...

but let's say we had international action and helped address the problem ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
...and they fiddled while Rome burned. pipe

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

With only a reduction of 10% in CFC I wonder what the additional contribution of CO2 due to less efficient refrigerants.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)


So is the climate emergency here right now? Or can we expect it in future?

If it's here right now, someone can surely provide statistics showing how today's fires, floods, droughts are now markedly worse and/or more frequent than the ones we had in the past?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Today's seasonal events will only get worse as the seasons get longer. All of the seasons 😉

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

You might get the impression that the Guardian overstates the severity, but it is most of the other MSM outlets that understate it or actively downplay it.

People demand happy news, cat videos, celeb stories, and the scoop on the latest scandal. They don't want to hear about something that might permanently cramp the only lifestyle they know or can imagine.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Your life’s mission appears to be proving I have everything backwards.

I know one thing, I’m on the right side of history. I invite you to join us there.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

History says that nothing is unprecedented. You're trying to cement yourself as being in the right side of the future all while lambasting the right.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Translation please.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

You aren't on the right side of history.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

That's very interesting, you're in a country very busy trying to erase history from schools, or at least the inconvenient bits.
So how can we rely on you to know what the right side is?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Aren't you the one that just tried to tell me Noah built his Ark decades in advance of a storm he somehow had warning about?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

not picking at anyone's religious beliefs, but ...
if you accept that Noah built an Ark, then why baulk at God giving him advanced notice ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I am personally not a religious person and believe that religions have utilized folklore loosely based on true story to create a base. It's a bit like the current climate change crowd.

I do believe Noah's Ark possibly existed. I don't think it held 2 of every animal. I think it may have been large enough to hold Noah's best breeding animals, a small barge by today's standards. Noah successfully evacuated his own farm during the great flood. Religion retold the story better. The same is true of climatologists today.

Did everybody miss that Robert Ballard link I posted about the great flood?

https://youtu.be/MModaC6jUPc

Brimmer, on the subject of denialism, I know he isn't your president but your kind denies the much more obvious (than CO2 warming) fact that Joe Biden has dementia. Until you can admit to such an obvious fact your credibility stands at zero.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I'm impressed by the way you're able to link ancient Semitic shipbuilding with climatology.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Tug)

Noah successfully evacuated his own farm during the great flood. Religion retold the story better. The same is true of climatologists today.

You're probably right. A few morsels of fact spun into a stupendous disaster story.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (TBE)

Brimmer, on the subject of denialism, I know he isn't your president but your kind denies the much more obvious (than CO2 warming) fact that Joe Biden has dementia. Until you can admit to such an obvious fact your credibility stands at zero.

It would help to get your sophisticated ideas across if you expressed them in more coherent prose. I won't even try to read that a second time.

But Joe kind of is our president too, whether we like it or not.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Weird comment considering the Trudeaus slept with the elephant, Castro.


If you deny the obvious including Joe Biden's dementia how can we trust your opinion on other subjects?

Your climatology comments remind me of Dara O'Brien's dentist vs toothiologist joke.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Tom, it sounds like it was a stupendous disaster in the hub of civilization. Our most significant event in our history involved 400 feet of sea level rise yet is hardly remembered. Now we may expect 70 feet. This seems to hardly be existential or unprecedented.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Tug)

Tom, it sounds like it was a stupendous disaster in the hub of civilization

I mean that in comparison to the final version of the story that any real flood would have been a relatively modest event.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (TBE)

Weird comment considering the Trudeaus slept with the elephant, Castro.

Weird comment considering the number of nations the US has militarily invaded in its history! I seem to recall something about stones and glass houses.
(To be absolutely clear, nobody had group sex with a pachyderm in Cuba on that notorious trip. Notorious only to some Yanks.)

Quote (TBE )

If you deny the obvious including Joe Biden's dementia how can we trust your opinion on other subjects?

Some leaps of logic are so stupendously world class all you can do is stand back and admire them.
But now you've told me about my Biden blind spot I suddenly get why I've been having so much trouble putting my pants on since inauguration day! Do you have advice for that, or should I ask my weekly QAnon cell study group about it?

I look forward to more trip reports from your personal visits to prehistory; it all ties in neatly to the original question dik asked ;)
(am I doing the emoticon thing right?)

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
I had earlier posted where the US had advanced a new funding bill for climate change. I was really surprised and I thought it was great. Unfortunately there are a lot of 'really bad strings' attached. It's not at all in the right direction.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/28/manchin-o...

evil

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
The potential results may become more bleak...

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2022/07/the-fut...

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
It seem obvious that with climate change the chances for extreme climate increases also. I wonder if there are any engineers or statisticians working for insurance companies and how they are dealing with this. I wonder if FM Global has anyone working on new standards for design loadings?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/28/clim...

ponder

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Ask the US DOD; they take climate change seriously.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Tom,.the Black Sea flood may have been quite cataclysmic as there may have been some geographic features that allowed sea level to rise above the area of the black Sea that have way and allowed the flooding to happen rapidly.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (brimstoner (Materials)29 Jul 22 06:38)


humm, I wonder if PET was talking about his "friends" in Quebec (or BC or anywhere else between) ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

"The potential results may become more bleak..." ... twas ever thus.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

rb1957,

PET never had many friends in Quebec, and even fewer in one province between there and BC.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
There may be this and other alternatives to high speed travel that may become viable.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/groundbreaking-...

ponder

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (So is the climate emergency here right now? Or can we expect it in future?)


I would suggest both and as brims notes, the longer we put it off, the worse it may be.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

sorry brim, added quotes for emphasis.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (You've got that one backwards. People prefer bad news.)


I would suggest you are incorrect, else the governments would be working on this now.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (History says that nothing is unprecedented.)


I disagree... we are totally 'in new territory'.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Weird comment considering the Trudeaus slept with the elephant, Castro.)


Comparitively, Castro is a mouse. Turdeau was one of the worst prime ministers Canada had, and junior is not far off... I liked Margolis' article on PET. "...it's not good to speak ill of the dead, but sometimes it's necessary."

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (With only a reduction of 10% in CFC I wonder what the additional contribution of CO2 due to less efficient refrigerants.)


The two are somewhat unrelated other than an increase in the ozone layer 'opening' will increase the 'heat' on the planet. The two are part of the problem in their own distinct way. I understand that the increase in CFC is a 'carry over' from insulation and refrigeration that occurred largely before the Montreal protocols kicked in. Although a problem, I think the CFC are a really minor part at this time and only cloud the issue of climate change... a 'red herring' so to say.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Ask the US DOD; they take climate change seriously.)


It's interesting that they don't think rising sea level is much of a problem for the continental US...



pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

You missed the point. R-134a (now defunct as well) uses 15% more energy than R-12 to do the same work. Therefore, banning CFC increases CO2 emissions.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
No... they are two somewhat separate issues, and non-CFC material is a lot more costly. With any attempt to reduce the carbon footprint, you have to be really careful with unintended consequences.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I think TBE's point is that the refrigerant was changed to address the ozone problem, and had in incidental effect of increasing CO2 emissions.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

If we insist on sea level rise then I’d like to see us halt it just at the point where Mar a Lago is under water.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

rb1957,

Classic distraction. Eliminating a directly harmful pollutant has far greater priority than the CO2 increase resulting from the fix, as you correctly state. Clearly refrigeration and A/C contribute to emissions, but a percentage increase there is not very much of the total carbon picture. Anyway refrigeration probably gives a net carbon reduction by greatly reducing food spoilage, thereby reducing demand on the very carbon intensive ag industry.

TBE,

You need to disabuse yourself of the obviously false notion that the mitigations to carbon emissions will create more carbon emissions than the problem they are designed to fix. Seriously, it’s fake news. We are talking about one-time infrastructure changes, compared to continuous ongoing FF burning.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

The one time changes are happening concurrently with our consumption of fossil fuels so they can only contribute on top of the CO2 we are already producing.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

@brim ... I don't think anyone is attempting a distraction, just an observation.

Please, let it rest.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Tug... I've updated my tome, above... it's still a work in progress.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (If we insist on sea level rise then I’d like to see us halt it just at the point where Mar a Lago is under water.)


It's a start, but it might not stop there.

I've never seen the Donald as so much of a problem but as a symptom of a much bigger problem that no one seems to recognise.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (and had in incidental effect of increasing CO2 emissions.)


Yes, but compared to the other sources, fossil fuels, the additional amount caused by CFC reduction was small. The problem with CFCs is that they act as a catalyst and continue to affect the ozone layer. They are not readily depleted.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I don't think anyone is attempting a distraction)


CFCs may be a bit of a 'red herring'... but they are a part of the overall problem of climate change, nonetheless.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (that the mitigations to carbon emissions will create more carbon emissions than the problem they are designed to fix)


That's one of the big problems on the horizon... the cures have to be better than the illness... can occur with a number of things: nuclear, solar power, wind power, storage batteries, and probably a host of others.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

GeeZeus ... I brought up CFCs as an example of the international community getting together and doing something useful (banning CFCs); not as a counter point to climate change.

It wasn't universally accepted (or so I understand) but it did (I assume) reduce CFC production.

It was possible because there was a reasonably obvious and economical alternative.

Not so FFs.

Now as I look at the NASA data (see separate thread) I'm not seeing a major recovery (as we're told). The last I can easily find is that the 2018 (or 2019) hole was the smallest ever. Nothing says "oh crap, it's back to being as big as it ever was (in recent times hole area has been consistently 25E6km2).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I brought up CFCs as an example of the international community getting together)


Sorry I missed that, my apologies. Often with climate change, people throw out 'red herrings' to distract...

We saw how the international community dealt with Covid... I suspect the same with climate change.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

rb1957,

People coming here (or anywhere) shouldn’t be doing their thinking out loud, in public. Filter your thoughts beforehand is a good guideline in life. People wouldn’t want to see my thought process (besides it would probably get me arrested). Intentionally or not, it throws up distracting flack, and you see the effects in repeatedly taking these threads off-road.

It’s worse than that, we have one member effectively distracting himself and then sticking to almost random unsupportable abstracted positions like a terrier with a bone. Then when facts arrive, he resorts to social media grade politics, name calling, or gratuitous amateur psychological profiling. But most often, goalpost shifting. It would be effective if debate was run on WWE principles, but sorry, it’s not.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Potentially interesting stuff... they are in new territory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUkWDMhtaLg

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
My postings are just observations to show what may lie ahead. It's a chance for others to think about the problem and possibly come up with a solution. I, personally, don't think a solution will be obtained. There's too much inertia, by people that are still making fortunes from it, including governments.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Likelihood that it is climate change, and not just an aberration of climate:

"The team looked at two-day-average temperatures and maximum temperatures over England and Wales for July 18–19. In today’s climate, that two-day average experienced during the heatwave comes in at around a 1 percent annual probability—often referred to as a 100-year event. The maximum temperature looks even rarer, with just a 0.1 percent probability or 1,000-year return period.

Subtracting 1.2° C of global warming would make it much more difficult to reach such high temperatures. The team describes the odds in a pre-industrial climate as “almost impossible," with calculated return periods well over 10,000 years. Or to frame it another way, a similarly rare event in a pre-industrial climate would actually fall about 4° C (7.2° F) shy of last week’s records."

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/record-bre...

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
You might want to grab your beastburgers while you can:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62340149

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
...an easy place to start fixing, if businesses didn't get in the way. This likely won't work in Texas:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/28/105648...

pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Yeah but ‘state’s rights’.

Texas is too proud, stubborn and frankly, stupid to go along with anything federal or sensible. (Got to say though, ‘Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)’ is an interesting name.)

EPRI is doing a lot of work on grid reliability and modernization, but again, decisions are driven by politics and money.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

You say ‘beastburgers’ like it’s a bad thing!

Seriously though, reducing meat consumption is a win-win-win-win, and one of the most direct and powerful ways that individuals can combat climate change. I’m not on the vegan bandwagon (a bit of a cult really), but I’ve always consumed meat in moderation. At an early age it was out of economic necessity, now it is out of habit and for health.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I've always been a proponent of aborting animal fetuses before they are born and using the aborted fetuses for human consumption. Less feed lot requirements and less stress on the animals. Probably better for CO2 as well.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

@TBE ... on the face of it ... yetch ! but maybe it's like veal ??
Maybe it's a case of what people on my side of the supermarket don't see the better ?

I'd rather use them as animal (pet) food.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Creepy and utterly point-missing.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (reducing meat consumption is a win-win-win-win)


Concur... just something to 'look forward to'.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

Suggestion for round IV renaming:
“Things have started to warm heat up”

New book coming out

A quote from the piece confirms what I and many others had already deduced since at least Paris:

“I know a lot of people working in climate science who say one thing in public but a very different thing in private. In confidence, they are all much more scared about the future we face, but they won’t admit that in public. I call this climate appeasement and I believe it only makes things worse. The world needs to know how bad things are going to get before we can hope to start to tackle the crisis.”

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Scary book and concept... but it might be on the right track. That's been one of my concerns for several months. There's no indication that the world is on track to try to correct it. The real downside is that you don't know how far this will go or how it will end. I wasn't joking about 50C in the American southwest. As Hokie pointed out, a good mass extinction, may not be a bad thing. pipe

You can't get much more blunt than:

"As to the reason for the world’s tragically tardy response, McGuire blames a “conspiracy of ignorance, inertia, poor governance, and obfuscation and lies by climate change deniers that has ensured that we have sleepwalked to within less than half a degree of the dangerous 1.5C climate change guardrail. Soon, barring some sort of miracle, we will crash through it.”

The future is forbidding from this perspective, though McGuire stresses that if carbon emissions can be cut substantially in the near future, and if we start to adapt to a much hotter world today, a truly calamitous and unsustainable future can be avoided. The days ahead will be grimmer, but not disastrous. We may not be able to give climate breakdown the slip but we can head off further instalments that would appear as a climate cataclysm bad enough to threaten the very survival of human civilisation."

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Population control is how some people justify war. Sick.

Birth control is less violent and much cheaper but the Evangelical-Republican Complex has designs on banning that, in concert with the newly minted third chamber of government, SCOTUS.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Brim, I'm just trying to guess at your internal monologue you said you don't share with us.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

How come these pressure areas seem to do the almost exact same thing every year? Warming is caused by positioning of the High and low pressure areas. Just watch your local weather on the news. Co2 or anyother gas has nothing to do with it.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
engine... you might want to do some reading about climate change... like it or not, it's happening, and is a direct result of CO2 pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, you can't say your last part definitively. We have already proven that climate change has happened after within human history and without human influence.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik has swallowed the “settled science” line. No argument allowed.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

TBE,
Each of your silly accusations rebounds back at you.
It’s the same with Drumpf and truth: the opposite of what he says is a very reliable guide.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Tug... yes there are changes... there was a posting above that showed the temperatures reached beyond the pre-industrial period have a factor of 1:10,000 of being 'natural' For the benefit of those that missed it:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/record-bre...

I'm pretty sure it's definitive... the guy has to do some reading... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Dik has swallowed the “settled science” line. No argument allowed.)


When the anecdotal evidence starts refuting climate change, I'll post those, too and re-evaluate my position... not there, yet, Hokie. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, how do you explain the more rapid sea level rise over the past 17k years vs today? If you saw my links about Noah, Robert Ballard said his house in Connecticut was under a mile of ice less than 20k years ago.

Remember, the same people that tell you climate change is an existential threat are the same ones that told you COVID vaccines prevent infection and now COVID rebound is rare despite both Anthony Fauci and Joe Biden experiencing rebound events. You have questionable sources.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

of the two groups around today (those who support ACC and those who don't), in 50 years one group will say to other "told you so". which I don't know.

And now we hear that climate scientists, in their coffee clutches, mutter to each other that it's much worse than they're allowed to say. So the IPCC is reigning in the climate scientists ... not what I understand.

So then there is no hope of a solution. Several climate scientists believe (AIUI) that we're already past the tipping point. We "obviously" can't stop burning FFs today, right? (not without killing about 90% of the world's population). So then lets just carry on carrying on.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik, I guess you have never heard the term geo engineering? That would make a good study.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Rb1957)

So the IPCC is reigning in the climate scientists

The IPCC has always sought out climate scientists who show climate change in clear and simple terms . We saw the inner working of that process with ‘Climategate’. Researchers tailoring their research to meet the IPCCs need for clear compelling evidence of climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Dik, the problem with your approach to “anecdotal evidence” is that hot or cold, wet or dry, flood or drought, green or brown, cloudy or clear; it all supports your view. We do all realise that the climate changes, and it always has and always will.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (hokie )

Dik has swallowed the “settled science” line. No argument allowed

Yeah, we should wait until we hit the brick wall at maximum speed before putting on the brakes.

Living up to your handle with every post hokie

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Let’s just stop dismissing news reports of increasingly catastrophic events as ‘anecdotal’. Data is science. No one ever said that any one weather was ‘predicted’ by the model, but scientists have been saying over and over to expect more severe events more frequently, and that is exactly what we are seeing. Try to wrap your heads around the idea that they are predicting greater unpredictability.

hokie I see you’re falling back on the hoary old chestnut ‘climate has always been changing’. Didn’t major in any of logic, philosophy, or common sense, did you?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Brimstoner)

saying over and over to expect more severe events more frequently, and that is exactly what we are seeing.

Ok, a couple of examples from Australia.

1. The 2019/2020 bushfires

2. The 2021/2022 Hawkesbury floods.

I have heard countless voices attribute these to climate change. Scientists, The media, politicians, lay people. Yet I haven’t seen anyone put forward any stats indicating they are in fact statistically anomalous. The historical fire data and flood data doesn’t show them as anomalous. Yet we are assured they are completely unprecedented. We’re told the evidence is undeniable.

So what exactly is it in these fires and floods, which as of yet are not statistically anomalous, that is “exactly” as climate change predicts?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Should have included statistical analysis in that list of missing majors, which to be fair will always be a list in progress.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Dik, how do you explain the more rapid sea level rise over the past 17k years vs today? If you saw my links about Noah, Robert Ballard said his house in Connecticut was under a mile of ice less than 20k years ago.)


The ice melt from the Pleistocene glaciation... and it's continuing. There are still a few areas with glaciers still left. It has however accelerated. I should have added that southern Manitoba, where I live, had over a mile of ice. Winnipeg is founded on approx 40' of laclustrine clay depositied by Glacial Lake Agassiz. The soil is 'springing up' still from all the ice to about 4" per century, if memory serves. Catch the clip: pipe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQy-kWZQvno

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (So then there is no hope of a solution.)


We have no idea of how this will 'shake out'; we are in new territory. World governments have failed to act.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (I guess you have never heard the term geo engineering?)



I've heard of geoengineering... just not much about any of their actions or any of their proposals... ponder

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (it all supports your view)


I'd like to see some that didn't; can you post some?

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Living up to your handle with every post hokie)


brims... Quit it!

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Yet I haven’t seen anyone put forward any stats indicating they are in fact statistically anomalous.)


If they were common and not anomalous, I don't think they would have produced the following?: pipe

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-5389991...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
The days are getting shorter. I have no idea of how this can affect plate tectonics, if it can... pipe

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/earth-record-sh...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Neat, tug... and a few more items will likely be 'turned up'. One of the big problems with climate change is that the systems are so dynamically complex. About 50 years back I was involved with some heuristic programming, looking at dynamic models. This was on an old IBM 360 which was a 'brute' in it's day... maybe like some slow laptops today. I thought that programming was extremely complex, but it pales in comparison.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Things may be drying up a tad... England may be enforcing water restrictions, and the water restrictions in SWUS may be increasing. We'll see in a couple of weeks after the Federal meetings are finished. pipe

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/3...

https://maritime-executive.com/article/drought-thr...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMQMJ1dpCR0

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

I seriously doubt the oceans are drying up.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
No, they are being increased because of melting glaciation and thermal expansion. Some inland areas are drying up like the SWUS... things are changing, and some areas of coast, in addition to inland areas, are being exposed. The earth's crust is dynamic, albeit slow. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Somebody needs to quickly scrub away those unsightly bathtub rings around Lake Mead. Makes deniability a little more plausible.

Sounds like a sensible climate change mitigation to me.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

I think you could not pile up sufficient evidence to convince the faithful. For conspiracy theorists, more science and more evidence only hardens their commitment.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote:

more science and more evidence only hardens their commitment.

As it should be.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
No tug, I think you are not correct... it should educate them, one way or the other. If a make an error on my posting and if corrected, I learn from it. If I'm correct and there are other contrary comments then this tends to reinforce my original thesis. Education is like this. A recent example was hokie's comment about mass extinction... I learned that mass extinction can actually be a positive thing. I'd just never thought of it that way. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Somebody needs to quickly scrub away those unsightly bathtub rings around Lake Mead)


Why? They show the process was a long time coming and that the human race had a bit of a warning to what may be coming. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Sorry dik, I should have flagged sarcasm there
;)

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
sorry brims... I guess I don't catch the [sarky] very well... just too old and wobbly...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Some areas have drought, while other areas suffer too much water: pipe

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11066775/...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

If they were common and not anomalous, I don't think they would have produced the following?

In terms of area burned the 2019/2020 fire season was 5th largest on record. Total area burned 18,000,000 hectares, which is well short of the all time record of 118,000,000 hectares.

In terms of fatalities it ranks 6th on record.

So why do you believe the Guardian when they tell you it was completely unprecedented and a clear sign of the climate apocalypse?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Did they try to extinguish the earlier burn, or were they even able to? and did they try to extinguish that later burn? There just seem to be a lot of fires of late... more than I seem to recall. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

Did they try to extinguish the earlier burn, or were they even able to? and did they try to extinguish that later burn?

You don't extinguish fires of this size. It doesn't work like that. The fire fighting efforts are targeted activities to protect life and property, and to help limit the spread into key areas, e.g. residential zones. But when that much area is burning there is no putting it out.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Your daily combustion update

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

What does your comment contribute, brim?

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (Maybe Noah can build another Ark. Remember, Noah didn't build the Ark during a storm.)


from the paper:


So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (You don't extinguish fires of this size.)


Had they have been able to extinguish it, would it have been that large. I suspect the big California ones would be a lot larger if they didn't successfully extinguish them. Maybe the only reason it got that large was because there was no effort to extinguish it? ponder There's a huge difference comparing a fire that's free to burn to a fire they are containing. This is a problem with data provided by people that don't think global warming is happening. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

had they have been able to extinguish it, would it have been that large

You're not grasping the magnitude.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

California currently has a policy to contain all fires. Your use of the word extinguish does show ignorance on the matter. Many of these fires burn for months after containment.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Well, Hokie66, Capt. Briggs took the long way around to circumnavigate Virginia, but that was the only way. He sailed up the coast from Norfolk to the St. Lawrence River, up the St. Lawrence and through the Great Lakes to Chicago, down the Sanitary Canal and the Illinois River to the Mississippi, down to the Gulf of Mexico and back up to Norfolk.

It was a great way to avoid work and have a blast. I wonder how much diesel fuel he burned up. I doubt that the sails reduced the fuel bill enough to warrant a press release. Since he could afford the time and money for that voyage, I figure that the tugboat business must be highly remunerative.

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Extinguish.

Quite an over the top reaction to what was clearly just a careless choice of one word.

Weaponizing pedantry?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (hokie)

We do all realise that the climate changes, and it always has and always will.

Said no one fleeing a wildfire ever.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Tragedy in Kentucky

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (You're not grasping the magnitude.)


I sure am... you don't realise that it didn't suddenly appear and start out this big. Was the size a result of it just burning out because it had consumed everything? It's silly to try to compare the size of a historical fire that was uncontained to a modern one that is contained. Apples to Oranges.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)

Quote (California currently has a policy to contain all fires.)


I wonder what prompted them to develope that silly approach [sarky mode off].pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
A real possible step backwards; Europe to develope new fossil fuel sources:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/energy/gas-fields-e...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Big oil pointing the finger: pipe

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/NOCs-Not-Big...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Some people are trying to fix things. I don't know how successful they will be: pipe

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/au...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
TV Forcasters caught between a rock and a hard place: pipe

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/01/clim...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Northern Europe is just trying to get through the next winter…

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
...by opening up new sources? ...and the winter after? That seems to be a good place to start. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (Donald Trump - 2018)

“Germany is totally controlled by Russia … They will be getting between 60 and 70 percent of their energy from Russia and a new pipeline, and you tell me if that is appropriate because I think it's not,”

Quote (Angela Merkel)

"I wanted to say that, because of current events, I have witnessed this myself, that a part of Germany was controlled by the Soviet Union. And I am very happy that we are today unified in freedom as the Federal Republic of Germany,"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Sad... had they had the foresight, they would have been less dependent on the Russians...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

Quote (dik)

TV Forcasters caught between a rock and a hard place:

I read that. More like ‘TV forecasters caught between reporting truth and online looney tuners threatening violence.’

NHS had antivaxxers invading hospitals at the height of the pandemic interrupting their work, and even targeting their homes. No surprise so many have quit.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

dik,

There were objections at the time these deals were signed. I guess the price was too attractive. Today the price is different. But there have been warning signs for at least a decade since Russia started extorting their customers and cutting off supplies.

There has been some serious retrospective handwringing in German political circles.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

(OP)
Thanks... didn't know the background... but it looks like the turkey has come home to roost. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Warm Up Part III

…because this thread has reached its thermal capacity.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

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