Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
(OP)
I have a client who wants a second opinion on an engineer report about some structural improvements they (the engineer) are requiring. I have read the report and disagree with much of what the engineer says. Now the client wants me to take over the job. No big surprise here, but with the conflicting reports there is additional liability that does not exist on a typical job.
Should there be an additional fee for this? What is your practice? Do i call the other engineer as a professional courtesy? (Why though? To tell him his report is junk? Lol.)
I was thinking of charging as i would an expert witness, but that seems overdone.
Should there be an additional fee for this? What is your practice? Do i call the other engineer as a professional courtesy? (Why though? To tell him his report is junk? Lol.)
I was thinking of charging as i would an expert witness, but that seems overdone.
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
This is sort of the 'bottom line.' I always inform the client first, of course, and if they are hesitant to let the other engineer know that the work is being reviewed, then I stop and walk away. If the client likes to do third party reviews as a standard, they should have informed the other engineer of that from the beginning. If they are looking to sue the other engineer, they should have fired the other engineer already and hired me to either redo the design or to review as an expert witness. Anything else is hiring me under false pretexts and I don't have time for that.
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
A few years back, I did a 'lunch talk' to the engineers at a company I worked at. The topic was forensic reports. I did a critical review of the report prepared for the Algo Mall collapse. The report, IMHO, was terrible. Before doing this, even though it was an informal, in-house, discussion. I sent the engineer that prepared the report a letter letting him know that I was reviewing his report. The engineer was 'out of province', but informing him was a professional courtesy.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
You also don't know the exact scope of the original contract. For example, if you could determine a deficiency because the client paid you to do some X-ray, but the client declined to pay for X-ray for the original engineer, it is unfair to say the original engineer was too stupid to know. You also don't know the scope of the original contract. Was it a casual general assessment, a detailed one with actual design recommendations?
If you talk to the original engineer, they can tell you why their report is insufficient. Maybe they agree with you, maybe they don't.
You didn't detail how your report is different and why it is better. I'm playing devil's advocate here: maybe the original report stated expensive repairs are needed and that is based on conservatives judgment. Now the client is unhappy. You are very negligent (this is just an example to demonstrate!) and recommend really cheap measures. Client is happy until the building collapses. But that doesn't mean the original engineer was bad.
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
No. There is no relationship between fees and liability. If you want to protect your liability, do that in the terms and conditions of your contract. If you charged more fees and still got sued for 10 times your fee, how would that help?
As for the other, I agree with dik...professional courtesy without regard to ethics.
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
I am curious at your hard-line take on "no relationship between fees and liability". Care to expand on the thought? I have always considered professional liability/risk when providing a cost or estimate to a client.
I may be programmed to see things this way as i was initially trained in an engineering firm that was heavy in the construction management and construction bidding side of things. In bidding construction projects, we would always - always - consider risk. I'm not sure why general engineering would be any different. We would typically estimate all the jobs the same, but apply a markup based on any number of concerns, including interest in job, risk, liability, etc...
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
In business, you pay wages to compensate people for their time and rent to have a place to work. Those are the first two components of the final price of your product. The third component is profit. That is, essentially, payment for the risks you take. If you were selling widgets, you would be putting capital at risk by first purchasing (or making) those widgets. If the widgets don't sell, you lose money. So if they sell, you should make money. We don't have physical widgets to sell, but we do have services, knowledge, and expertise to sell. And our risk, rather than being tied up in physical stock, is focused largely on potential liabilities. That's why it's pretty easy to start up an engineering business - all you need is a calculator, a computer, a few pieces of software, and a place to sit to do the work. BUT...things get ugly and costly if you make mistakes.
So your fees should reflect this risk such that when you get sued, you'll still have profit left over. Most do this in a holistic sense and don't single out individual projects. You get insurance, and pass the cost of the insurance + your deductible along to clients with a markup. This is 'baked in' to the standard rates you charge. Doing otherwise can be very difficult, especially for a small firm. Exceptions may be on large projects where you need to get an individual rider from your insurance company to cover just that project. That's a direct influence of project specific risk on price.
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
If you feel you should be compensated for more risk, then yes - I agree with you. But I also agree with ge447f that it will do nothing to mitigate the risk. You should use whatever means you have at your disposal to mitigate risks, and whatever is left over (because you'll always have some left over) should inform your compensation goals.
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Second Opinions - standard rate or upcharge?