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Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact
9

Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

(OP)
https://fortune.com/2022/06/10/elon-musk-tesla-nht...

"On Thursday, NHTSA said it had discovered in 16 separate instances when this occurred that Autopilot “aborted vehicle control less than one second prior to the first impact,” suggesting the driver was not prepared to assume full control over the vehicle."

Where I a legislating body, I would very much demand that safety critical software needs to be as transparent as any other safety feature. Which would limit "AI"/machine learning applications in these roles.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

2
On the plus side, that means they can claim fewer wrecks under Autopilot.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

MartinLe,

There has to be an iron law of robot automobiles that says "Don't smash into stuff."

Is it practical for robot software to hand control back to a driver in an emergency? If the driver/passenger is not paying attention, they have a second or two to figure out why there is an emergency and work out what to do about it. Human drivers are only effective if they are actively controlling the car, and giving driving their full attention.

If a robot needs to hand control to a driver, it must ring bells to get the driver's attention, and continue to control the vehicle until the driver grabs the controls. If a robot runs into an unmanageable traffic situation, it must pull over and stop. The robot must drive cautiously so that it does not get into situations.

--
JHG

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

The sudden de activation of Auto pilots on ships and planes has been documented on many occasions - e.g. air France 447 and other shipping incidents where the supposed people in charge have a "low arousal" state when the AP is locked in and can easily panic when suddenly control reverts to them, often with poor outcomes.

Even if the driver was paying attention, they tend to wait until beyond the last possible moment to do anything as they expect the machine to do the business and rely nigh on 100% for it to do so.

My car has adaptive cruise control whereby it actually brakes if required. First time I let it do it was super scary and my foot hovered over the brake pedal. It definitely brakes later and harder than I would so I tend not to let it scare the living daylights out of me or risk getting rear ended. But those of a more trusting mind I can see just press the button and hey presto - the car is in control. My mind can now wander to anything I want and the car will take care of it. Until it doesn't.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Will this impact the Tesla practice of forcing customers to agree to non-disclosure in exchange for repairs?
I would expect the feds to say that if the work had anything to do with AutoPilot you are free to tell us about it.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Autopilot on my 65 million dollar aircraft kicked out today on approach. Why I have no clue.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

No clue?? Thought the FBW machines could tell you everything even if you need to download to find out.

Doesn't sound good if it didn't tell you why.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Nah, it's just sounds a charging noise to tell you it's given up and then you waggle the stick.

There was 6 aircraft in front and pretty sporty. It will have recorded the reason and the technicians will down load it tonight and if it's a hardware issue do Thier thing. Was fine on the way back.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

At least you were fully awake on the approach presumably in daylight at this time of year.

Top of cruise on a dark moonless night might be a bit different?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I dare say in an aircraft on autopilot control there is plenty left for the human operators to do to on approach to keep them fully engaged and aware of the situation. And beyond any instinct for self preservation and job continuity, they are morally and duty bound to do so. This type of scenario is exactly how such contraptions as Tesla "Autopilot" are NOT being marketed to the general public.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I was given a demonstration of automatic emergency braking. We test this using an inflated car shaped balloon as a stationary target (our system is vision based). So I drive up behind the target, and, of course, hit the brakes. The other engineer says, yeah everybody does that the first time. With very conscious effort I was able to let the car do its stuff the second time.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yes cruise 2am would have a significantly longer reaction time. But but it wouldn't do much.

The disconnect noise is loud. And no confusion what it is.

Approach your configuring the machine and managing the speed.

This machine it is extremely rare it does it. Q400 was weekly in horrible weather. It very passive as it gives you the aircraft in a trimmed condition. The q400 there was a bit of a jerk when the autopilot servos released.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yes, my 2021 GMC Terrain has two automatic braking features, 'Front Pedestrian Braking' and 'Automatic Emergency Braking'. Note that the 'Automatic Emergency Braking' works with what they call 'Forward Collision Alert'. Now I can't recall if either the 'Automatic Emergency Braking' or the 'Front Pedestrian Braking' has ever kicked in, but the 'Forward Collision Alert' has a couple of times. This happens if the vehicle in front of you suddenly slows or is stopped and you're approaching it. It projects a red light up onto the windshield, right where the driver's eyes are (should be) looking as well as shaking the driver's seat. Now this has only happened like in a parking lot where someone suddenly stops because they saw an open parking spot or because they see someone starting to back-out of a spot. I've always managed to stop in time (at least I assume it was me who applied the brakes) so everything has worked as expected.

As for when I'm driving at highway speeds, there's also what they call the 'Following Distance Indicator' that has three settings (Far, Medium, or Near) which are adjusted based on how fast you're moving. This has an indicator in the 'Driver Information Center' which displays and changes color depending on how close the vehicle in front of you is. This setting is also used by the 'Adaptive Cruise Control' for controlling the distance that is automatically maintained between you and the vehicle in front of you while in Cruise Control mode.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

That Dacia I am buying scores a very low ncap score due to it missing all these safety assist systems and seatbelt warnings in 3 rd row.

Scores ok in occupant crash tests.

I see it as a bonus not having to turn them off every time I start the car. Lane assist I find particularly annoying.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

In my 2021 GMC Terrain, things like lane assist can be set so that all you get is a visual indication in Driver Information Display but without any audible warning, which isn't as annoying. Same with the blind spot warning, I only get the indication light in the side-view mirrors but again without any audible warning.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Honestly I drive some of the most documented and tested auto pilots developed. I get tested on Thier failure modes at least every 6 months.

Would I trust a car autopilot? Would I hell.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

In countries other than the US with their super long, flat straight freeways, Lane assist is the work of the devil, IMHO.

My Renault has it and I can stop it activating full stop, not every time. Thank god.

It is interesting that a lot of the incidents with the Tesla system seem to be responding to emergency vehicles parked or blocking the road or doing something strange. You would have thought by now that the systems would recognise blue and red flashing lights and wake the driver up and pass it over to him or her.

The routine boring stuff I'm sure its great at, but it is when something is going wrong or once in a blue moon type event that it struggles with it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Giving up control seconds before a serious unexpected collision is just not safe at all, if that's the system behaviour then (even if it isn't a deliberate attempt to dodge liability) it should not be legal on the public roads.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

You would have thought by now that the systems would recognise blue and red flashing lights and wake the driver up and pass it over to him or her.

It's pretty simple, based on its previous behavior; the lane-following algorithm appears to be disjoint from the collision avoidance, and the latter is a complete piece of crap, while the former is simply stupid

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

This should prove interesting:

Data Likely Shows Teslas On Autopilot Crash More Than Rivals

The government plans soon to release data on collisions involving vehicles with autonomous or partially automated driving system that will likely single out Teslas for a disproportionately high number of such crashes.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/united-states-tesla...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I think a comparison per mile would be more meaningful considering Teslas have long had the longest range and therefore accumulated the most miles.

Remember, Musk has drawn the ire of the media in recent times so we are going to be assaulted by negative press for the time being. Be extra critical of any data presented in these stories.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I'm not sure, tug. Most accidents, I understand, happen with short trips, close to home. The number of trips may be a better indicator.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I see that 69% of accidents happen within 10 miles of home and the average commute in the USA is 41 miles round trip. That means half of the drive is within 10 miles of home so 69% doesn't seem so astounding. I wonder if more accidents happen in the evening than morning when the driver is more tired? That would certainly bias things a bit closer to home.

Anyways, I'm not a fan of headline statistics. They are intended to be inflammatory, not informative.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

concur... I didn't have numbers on accidents; I just seem to recall the proximity to home and the short trips. Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

"I wonder if more accidents happen in the evening than morning when the driver is more tired?"

I'm not sure I'd use the word "tired". But it's something.

I live in a house that overlooks the freeway that comes out of the Caldecott tunnel, heading towards San Francisco.

Sirens and blue lights are VERY rare in the morning. They are NOT rare at all in the late afternoon/evening.

WHY there is a difference has interested me ever since I noticed it.

Of especial interest is the morning commute is downhill, which should be more dangerous. I think.



spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yea, it's like the guy who read that most accidents occur within 10 miles of home, so he moved.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Spalso, since you're familiar with the area, I used to commute from Vallejo to Oakland. I had more than once made an unintentional lane change due to dozing off on the return trip. In fact, it happened so many times in the same area, between San Pablo Dam Rd and El Portal I started to anticipate it. I bought a motorcycle to commute on and that solved it.

Man, I'd hate to work within 10 miles of home. That would be like 100% accident rate.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (spsalso)


I live in a house that overlooks the freeway that comes out of the Caldecott tunnel, heading towards San Francisco.

Sirens and blue lights are VERY rare in the morning. They are NOT rare at all in the late afternoon/evening.

Where's the position of the Sun, relative to the flow of traffic, in the morning versus in the late afternoon/evening? Based on what you said about "traffic coming OUT of the Caldecott tunnel, heading towards San Francisco", after looking at a map of the area, I would bet that there's virtually NO Sun shining in the eyes of the drivers going in either direction in the Morning. However, in the late afternoon/evening, the traffic moving toward San Francisco would be going directly into the Sun.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Fortunately, traffic doesn't move fast enough around here for the sun to be an issue.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Mr. Baker,

The accidents happen to the traffic returning home. Thus the sun would be behind them. In both directions.

Traffic speeds on this stretch during commute hours do tend to vary, but it seems they are usually faster in the morning commute.

spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

"Man, I'd hate to work within 10 miles of home. That would be like 100% accident rate."

LOL. I live 7 miles from where I have worked for the last 20 years. No accidents...yet (sh@t, I may have just jinxed myself). Other than inclement weather (ice and snow mostly) I'd say the biggest contributor to accidents around here is distracted driving, mostly cellphones. Can't count the number of people I see "driving" while looking at their laps. I usually give them a wide berth.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

On highway 80 in the SF Bay Area, the accidents are almost exclusively someone plowing in to the back of another car. Highway 24 and 580 are a little different. They're favored by our criminal element as a conduit between Pittsburgh/Stockton to San Francisco. They get lots of high speed roll-over type wrecks.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

I see that 69% of accidents happen within 10 miles of home and the average commute in the USA is 41 miles round trip.

You've combined two statistics that aren't necessarily related; 69% of ALL accidents, not necessarily only commute accidents. I've never had an accident during a commute; every accident I ever had was either a side trip or non-commute related.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Just because Tesla has statistics to tout doesn't mean their stuff is necessarily good; most of the reported accidents and non-accidents are failures of the "Autopilot" to behave correctly or failure of the car to enforce driver attention, as is required by the level of automation in the car. Just like 737 Max didn't have a problem until two planes fell out of the sky for the same cause.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

As a sort of experiment, since I've been driving the same route everyday, going to and from the radiation oncology facility, I couldn't help but notice all of the Teslas that I was seeing on the road. My drive covers approximately seven miles, in each direction, and it's all surface streets, through a mix of residential, retail and commercial areas. On most days, it takes me 20 minutes or less to cover those seven miles.

So today I decided to count how many Teslas I saw out on the street actually moving. I didn't count any that I saw parked at the medical facility nor in the various parking lots that I passed by, I only counted Teslas that either passed me, or I passed them, or I saw pass in the opposite lane or I saw cross in front of me as I waited at a light. Now I ended-up only counting on the way home, but it felt like about that same amount as I would have seen on the way to the medical facility. So my count of Teslas actual moving on the street during my seven mile, less than 20 minute drive, was 61 vehicles. Now as an engineer and one who has been following this and other threads that we've had here on E-Tips discussing various issues related to Tesla's 'auto pilot', you can't help but wonder how many of these Teslas were being operated in their 'automatic' mode. Scary...

Now in the eight and half weeks that I've been making this trip each day, 14 miles round trip, I've only seen one accident:


April 2022 (Apple iPhone 7)

But from the photo, it's obviously NOT a Tesla. Now there was another car involved:


April 2022 (Apple iPhone 7)

And it wasn't a Tesla either.

I know this doesn't really add anything relevant to the thread's topic, but I still thought it might be of interest.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Lots of rear end damage on that car. Looks like the SUV ran in to the back of it (distracted driver). Autopilot, even a poor performing one, would likely have benefited this situation

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yes, that's what it looked like to me as well. And again, yes, if it had been my SUV and it was a stopped/slower moving vehicle, I would have at least gotten that 'Forward Collision Alert' flashing red light in front of my eyes as well as the vibrating seat. Of course, I would still have had to actually hit the brakes, unless the 'Automatic Emergency Braking' feature had taken over, which like I've noted before, I don't think I've ever experienced (and that's a good thing).

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/15/1105252793/nearly-4...

Not exactly apples to apples comparison, but if it were, Tesla's accident rate is about 20 time higher than Honda's for those equipped with driver assistance systems. Now, if Tesla's accident rate were less than Honda's, THAT would be something to crow about.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I have been seeing this comment come up since the very first driverless cars began testing on public roads.

Quote (IR's NPR Article )

In most of the crashes, vehicles were struck from the rear.

Specifically that was about the WayMo cars but other manufacturers have made the same comment.

Another takeaway from that article is that Tesla is the only manufacturer who's vehicles automatically report a collision which is a likely explanation for their higher rates.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I have OnStar in my GMC and my wife has MBrace in her Mercedes, and both of these 'services' will report to their respective emergency desks if the vehicle is in an accident (I think it's triggered if the airbags are deployed) and if they fail to reach you through the onboard cellular system, they will call 911 using your last GPS location.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

The Dacia does the same phoning and there is a sos button on ceiling. Where you can manually trigger it.

It also has a data connection to maint system at Renault in certain countries.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yes, both OnStar and MBrace offer a manual 'emergency call' option as well. In fact, with OnStar, if you pay the monthly cellular charge, you can use it as a normal 'hands-free phone'.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Do those systems only report to emergency services? The Tesla system reports to Tesla as well so they can forward the crash data to NTHSA. I think that is what the article implied, Tesla is the only company that receives automatic crash reports from its vehicles.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

No, the message first goes to an emergency desk at OnStar/MBrace, who then try contacting the driver of the car using the built-in cellular system (even if you haven't paid for the optional 'hands-free phone' it's still enabled for emergency use) and if they get no response, only then do they call 911.

Since OnStar and MBrace are ostensibly owned and operated by GM and Daimler, respectively, I would assume that the any accident data would be available to the car manufacturer, and while I don't know this for sure, I would assume that the information stored in the vehicles so-called 'black boxes' could also be accessed and downloaded via the onboard cellular system.

I know I get a monthly report, via email, from OnStar as to the current statistics of my GMC Terrain, including the status of any onboard warning systems, as well as remaining oil life, tire pressures, fuel levels, etc.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Renault does as well if you are in one of the countries that it pays for a data package to the cars.

Tends to be all the central euro countries and Spain and Italy.

Eastwards it stops at the German Polish border. Wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't work in USA.

Also wouldn't surprise me if they have a different satnav system in it. As our one is GPS and Galileo.

And that only became legal in 2018 in usa

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

No details yet as to whether this was an 'autopilot' issue or not, but it sort of feels like it:

2 dead in Tesla vehicle crash at Paynes Prairie rest area, FHP reports

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/2022/07/07/...

An excerpt from the above item:

Two people were killed in a Tesla vehicle accident Wednesday after their car ran off an interstate and crashed into a stationary Walmart semi-trailer truck, according to Florida Highway Patrol.

Law enforcement say the vehicle was traveling on Interstate 75 but for unknown reasons exited for the rest area near Paynes Prairie. The vehicle then struck a Walmart Freightliner tractor-trailer that was parked in the resting area.

The driver and passenger in the Tesla, a 66-year-old female and 67-year-old male from Lompoc, California, were pronounced dead at the scene.


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

...not autopilot, it disengaged a split second before the impact. It was some other cause. pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Well, a rest stop doesn't seem like the obvious place to be using Autopilot, so wait and see what happened.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Exactly. Perhaps the 'autopilot' read the exit lane as part of the regular roadway.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

It appears the car was going very fast, as the ICC bar is buried inside the car. The bar is 22" off the ground.


spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Photo doesn't look like a rest area. It may be the exit lane to a rest area, but it looks like it is still part of the motorway at the point of collision.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

No breaks in the white lines in the photo and then article explicitly stated the truck was parked. This is not a thoroughfare.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

No, that's a rest area. Those white strips are designating the parking spots. In fact, from the looks and location of the strips, this is where the 18-wheeler park, like that WalMart truck.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Very difficult to locate this "rest stop" on Google maps. There is a proper rest stop close by, but it doesn't look like this.

It looks to me like the truck was just stopped for some reason on the emergency lane and the tesla just ran straight into the back of it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

...not autopilot, it disengaged a split second before the impact. It was some other cause.

My thought as well. Disengaging <1 second at highway speeds is so close to a collision that it makes you wonder why they bother disengaging at all.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

It's not the highway, that is a parking lot of a rest stop. It's the Alachua County Rest Area - Southbound side. Using Google maps, if I'm on the southbound highway I can see the same background as that picture across the northbound lanes. Go to about the start of the parking area near the entrance and look in front of the Penske truck.

In the rest stop, you drive in and then it branches to the left before reaching the truck parking area. The parking spots are at about a 30* angle so you have to turn left into the spot. They are drive through spots. The truck looks like it was actually parked in a spot and not just entering the rest area, so I have no idea how the car managed to turn left to hit it at that angle or that hard.

How it got off the highway into the rest stop is the easy part. The lane following system mistook the exit lane as a continuation of the highway and followed the lane marking lines into the parking lot at full speed.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

My thought as well. Disengaging <1 second at highway speeds is so close to a collision that it makes you wonder why they bother disengaging at all.

Come on, you can't think of any reason to do that???

If the car wasn't on autopilot when it crashed then the crash doesn't get put under the autopilot crash column of the Tesla crash statistics spreadsheet. They can keep reporting how autopilot is safer than it really is.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Did the autopilot maybe think it was a continuation of the road?

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

That was my comment yesterday.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

From the crash photo, it looks like the car hit the rear of the trailer almost dead-on. At a high speed.

So the car had to VERY ABRUPTLY make a hard left.

If the computer was driving, I expect it "thought" it was still on the roadway when it had veered off into the rest stop. So it maintained speed. Perhaps it saw the trees at the end of the lane, and "figured" it had to turn left to avoid them. Ran out of options.

Like many/most here, I don't understand why the manufacturer(s) did not design in the first law of (car) robotics: Don't hit anything, especially at a high speed.

I could suggest that our elected government officials forcefully remind them that they should do so, but.......



spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Or what would happen if insurance companies had the balls to say if you crash under autopilot we don't cover you, or at least your deductible is 100x.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I think, eventually, the insurance companies are going to require autopilot on... certified roads or in parking lots.

But one must admit that the drivers in this case had time while the car exited a freeway offramp designed to allow even large trucks to slow from freeway speed before entering a parking lot before striking the truck. The driver has to have been drunk or asleep.

If I remember correctly, the Walter Huang crash was a much more disturbing story. The car steered into the beginning of a center divider and eviscerated itself. Supposedly the driver was playing video games which doesn't help his case BUT... other drivers were able to recreate the situation and had to take the car out of autopilot to keep the same incident from happening again. There were YouTube videos but I can't find any right now.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Autopilot or no, the driver / occupants about had to be checked out in one way or another.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

The car steered into the beginning of a center divider and eviscerated itself.


That's because the Tesla lane following routine is stooopid. It has tons of information that could inform it to stay in the correct lane, but they choose to ignore all the ancillary data and only rely on a single point of failure algorithm that's only marginally usable. That is coupled with the fact that the collision avoidance routine is also stooopid, because they designed it to make assumptions about the things it detects and bases future behavior on an algorithm that's not 100% reliable. The gore point incident referenced here, the collision with the semi in Florida, and the collision with the back end of a private jet all point to deep flaws in the systems engineering of the programs.

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I think self-driving is going to be the future but the roads have to be built to support it. IFR airports require certification. Self driving roads will be the same.

Also, self driving only cars are idiotic as there will always be an outlier situation that requires intervention. An unpaved road is the most obvious example.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yes, I think instrumented roads are probably the way forward. That implies to me that every road user will need a transponder of some form. Well that won't cause any ranting.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Collision detection is plausible. Eventually we will invent an array of sensors that can identify an object in front of a car reliably. As humans we aren't good at preventing collision but we as humans do well at panic breaking which reduces the severity of the collision. That is not without a semi-automatic aid called ABS. Self driving cars will be better at preventing collision in the first place.

However, it's the lane keeping that requires abstract thought due to varying conditions, inconsistent markings, worn markings, etc... We aren't currently at a computing level that can support such a thing.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

Also, self driving only cars are idiotic as there will always be an outlier situation that requires intervention. An unpaved road is the most obvious example.

Sure, but these Tesla "accidents" were pretty run-of-the-mill, and hardly outlier conditions.


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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

Eventually we will invent an array of sensors that can identify an object in front of a car reliably.

That is the crux of the stupidity of the current algorithms; you don't need to identify a solid object to know not to hit it. Even in the cases of the Teslas colliding with the truck in Florida and the recent plane collision, there was plenty of information that the Teslas had, even with their meager sensor suites to determine that there was going to be a collision, it was simply stupid algorithm construction that led to ignoring the possibility of a collision. In the case of the Uber fatal collision in Arizona, the sensors and algorithms clearly detected a moving object on a collision path, but the the algorithms ignored the collision possibility because they detected different objects on each detection and blithely ignored the collision possibility until it was too late to even brake.

We've had decent enough sensors for at least 10 years; the main issue is cost, and the lack of right-thinking systems engineering. Just consider the Tesla gore-point collision in Silicon Valley; the car, as a whole, "knew" it was on a road with bend, "knew" other cars were following the road, so why would the lane-following ignore both pieces of information and basically follow spurious lane markings and leave the road?

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

and more, "Safety officials have opened a 37th probe into a Tesla crash after a couple's car slammed into the back of a Walmart truck, shearing its roof off.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is investigating the wreck, which happened at the Paynes Prairie Rest Stop just south of Gainesville, Florida, on Wednesday."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10998257/...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

The shearing happened a bit below the "roof".

It happened 22" off the ground.


spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Notwithstanding the location, the roof was sheared off... and possibly even the occupants, too.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (SnTMan)

Autopilot or no, the driver / occupants about had to be checked out in one way or another.

Blaming the occupants is easy. But it is the 'autopilot' that creates this problem and in this case was the direct cause of the accident. They might have been on a three hours into a trip down the interstate with no required interaction for a couple of hours. It is easy for ANYBODY to check out during that time. They might have checked back in after 5 seconds but if the car is going 70mph and you suddenly realise you are in a rest stop then your decision making part of you brain still takes a few seconds to get back into gear.

The insidious part of 'autopilot' isn't just the time taken to realise that something isn't quite right it is the time take to assess the situation and engage an appropriate reaction. This same issue is present even in driving without autopilot. My ability to QUICKLY react to a complete unexpected circumstance is far better on twisty mountain roads than a dead straight highway with no traffic.

It is interesting that they chose the word auto PILOT. When pilot has been most commonly used for aeroplanes and to marine navigation. In both cases you would generally have tens of seconds or even minutes to react to an surprise advese event while otherwise travelling in a benign environment. On our roads you have seconds. In this case the adverse event (not following the interstate) was directly CAUSED by a poorly behaved autopilot.

IMO if TESLA was a traditional automaker it would have been reigned in but authorities long ago. But somehow tech companies for the last decade have been given free reign.

The TESLA 'AI' seems to be a good LEVEL 1 system that opperates as a LEVEL 2 system but whose users can readily treat as a LEVEL 3 system. It is a recipe for the occasional unforced catastrophe.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

AI...ponder
Artificial incompetence?
Artificial insanity?
wink

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

human909, not to be argumentative, but I don't believe it is known whether "Autopilot" was engaged or not, although I'd have to think, yes.

My point was that I believe an actively ebgaged driver would have been aware that a rest area was being approached, that entering / exiting traffic was likely, that enhanced awareness was warranted. Such enhanced awareness should have permitted sufficient reaction time to DO SOMETHING: Steer the car back to the highway, apply the brakes, steer around obstacles or some combination.

Instead the car appears to have struck the parked trailer dead-center at 75 mph, thereabouts. Nobody did nothing.

EDIT; Apparently

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

It's a weird world we live in where the victim must never also be at fault.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (SnTMan)

My point was that I believe an actively ebgaged driver would have been aware that a rest area was being approached, that entering / exiting traffic was likely, that enhanced awareness was warranted.
I got your point. And I agree that they would not have been an actively engaged with the driving.

Like I said. Blaming the occupants is easy. The 'driver' if you want to call the person that is almost certainly at fault as it seems they likely weren't driving.

But we all know about HUMAN failures as drivers. I thought this was a discussion about engineering failures. Which Tesla's autopilot has many. Hence I quickly shifted to discussing the safety failures of Tesla.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Yeah, well the "Autopilot" and the like has expanded the possible "failure modes" for the human drivers :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (It's a weird world we live in where the victim must never also be at fault.)


The victim should anticipate a reasonable expectation of something working... else, it shouldn't be available until it is working correctly. It's not an unreasonable expectation... and they are using this technology to sell things... as a main marketing feature.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

It's like a car getting hit by a train. Blame is always placed on the crossing, never the victim.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

It's a weird world we live in where the victim must never also be at fault.

Are you just rabble rousing, or do you have hard data? In the case of the Tesla, it's got a barely Level 2 automation, but it's never really sold as such, and I certainly blame the victims for being so easily led astray by marketing of a piece of junk. But, just because the victims share the blame, that doesn't make the system fault free. The bottom line is that Tesla has known about these problems for many years and have continued to fail to overhaul the algorithms; that can't be blame on the victims. If the algorithms did even marginally better, there would be a lot fewer victims for which we can play the blame game. In this last instance, the distance from where the car was still on the highway to the point of impact is about 700 ft, which at 75 mph equates to 6.4 seconds. Given the female driver at age 66, who might have been either inattentive or asleep, it would have taken the entire distance to even come to a complete stop if they were inattentive for more than 2.5 seconds, and any confusion about what was happening and what to do would have only compounded the issues.

There's not much we can do about the victims, since decades of driver education seemingly fails to keep people from speeding or driving recklessly, but we, or more properly, Tesla, can do something about crappy algorithms and poor collision avoidance logic.

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Not rabble rousing, I don't think people should be in control of cars in most cases. I really want "autopilot" to work. I just want people to reflect on the fact that this crash was entirely avoidable had driver done anything at all. I'll be curious to see the toxicology report. Once DUI is a factor then the driver is always at fault.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Tesla's AutoPilot is more than two of SAE's levels away from your desired operation point, Level 4; they've not even nailed down the simplest part of reliable obstacle avoidance, so they're realistically barely at Level 1.

Quote:

this crash was entirely avoidable had driver done anything at all.

The problem is that even if the driver was fully engaged and alert, that level of alertness would have dropped significantly in less than 30 minutes; the less active driving you have to do, the harder to maintain your alertness.

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

IRstuff what level are aircraft Autopilots/ auto throttles and auto brakes?

All excellent I might add but can still bite your bum if you don't use them correctly or feed them the correct information.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (TugboatEng)

I just want people to reflect on the fact that this crash was entirely avoidable had driver done anything at all.
I think people here are well aware of that. But it also would not have occurred had the 'autopilot' not failed spectacularly in numerous ways.

Many car manufacturers have sensors and AI that are of similar level to TESLA's, but they don't choose to implement an self driving system like Tesla has due to its risk. The real automation companies that have level 4 vehicles on the roads have FAR better AI and sensors and still choose to limit speeds and locations.

Quote (Alistair_Heaton)

IRstuff what level are aircraft Autopilots/ auto throttles and auto brakes?
SAE levels apply to automobiles, hence the A in SAE.

Quote (Alistair_Heaton)

All excellent I might add but can still bite your bum if you don't use them correctly or feed them the correct information.
Reaction times required are entirely different not to mention the training levels. Comparison to aircraft I don't think is particularly helpful.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Well I would disagree on reaction times...

But yes our training levels and knowledge about the systems is far higher.

I wasn't actually meaning to compare them just wondered. As ours throw up funny's occasionally which require manual input to sort out relatively quickly.

They have been talking about pilotless aircraft for years. In fact I was told in a lecture aged 17 33 years ago by the aerospace prof that piloting was a dead end profession. Its relatively easy compared to deal with roads.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (Alistair)

Well I would disagree on reaction times...
I would have thought that in normal steady state flight you don't regularly have reaction time requirements below 3s and reaction time requirements below 1s are not needed. Though I've never flown and if I'm not mistaken you do fly so you can correct me.

Driving regularly requires these sorts of reaction times from people.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Its not those phases of flight that are a problem. Although some aircraft it is.

Its 30ft off the ground descending at 12ft per second doing 160 mph you have to be attentive.

This reaction time thing was one of the main issues with MACAS and the 737 MAX. The macas could drive the trim of the aircraft to a point that it became unrecoverable using manual inputs and none power assisted trim inputs. Basically a 737 pilot needs to catch a trim run way in under 3 seconds and not let the speed increase to outside the 10 knot window they can trim manually.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (Alistair _Heaton)

Its not those phases of flight that are a problem. Although some aircraft it is.

Its 30ft off the ground descending at 12ft per second doing 160 mph you have to be attentive.
Exactly my point. That is a know point in the flight phase. You aren't cruising along halfway across the Atlantic and have to perform a landing within 3 seconds.

Tesla's 'autopilot' expects you to have high reaction and decision making abilities at all times while happily shouldering the work load 99% of the time. 1% of the time that it fails it can fail quite badly and unexpectedly and requires a user to intervene quickly to prevent disaster. An attentive user in this case would have likely prevented this accident, this is almost certainly why there aren't MANY more of these accidents.

Quote (Alistair _Heaton)

This reaction time thing was one of the main issues with MACAS and the 737 MAX. The macas could drive the trim of the aircraft to a point that it became unrecoverable using manual inputs and none power assisted trim inputs. Basically a 737 pilot needs to catch a trim run way in under 3 seconds and not let the speed increase to outside the 10 knot window they can trim manually.
Yes and we all know how that turned out. But that is hardly relevant because that is just as flawed as Tesla's autopilot.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Exactly and there is much much less variables that an aircraft automation system has to deal with.

If they haven't cracked it getting on for 90 years worth of development with aircraft automation. How is anyone even considering it for cars with thier vastly increased number of variables and risk factors and shear volume of data that needs processing.

Its the whole concept of what is a humans reaction time to failure of automatics. I suspect Tesla is using Boeings 1960's criteria for fail passive reactions. Most people will struggle to process the situation data to even begin reacting in an appropriate manner.

There is a huge subject called Threat Error management or TEM for short. Which then links into Crew resource management which deals with human performance in aviation. As far as i can see car autopilots fail miserably in both aspects in a public uncontrolled environment.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I think just about anyone on these pages knows that the Tesla system is significantly flawed and should never have been marketed as "auto pilot" implying vastly greater levels of authority than it should.

In this instance if you track back along the high way, the inner lane with the continuous white line on the right splits into two with the 4th Lane becoming the slip road. So it kind of makes sense that if the car was in the RH lane then it would move over a bit. But then there is quite a sharp turn right when the white line becomes continuous on both sides. You can only guess that once the car was a few metres off the road where the GPS thought it should be that it then tried to get back onto the highway. Unfortunately there was a rather large trailer in the way. We don't know what other trucks were parked there so not possible to see what the system thought was a good idea, but these systems are just not ready to be used in this way.

Maybe there was another truck hiding the second one and then once it made the turn ran out of time before this other truck it couldn't see was stationary. All at 60-70 mph....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Actually, SAE embraces all forms of mobility engineering.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

Actually, SAE embraces all forms of mobility engineering.

Ditto, a go-to document I used to cite regularly was SAE-AIR-1168-4, which covered icing and deicing on aircraft

Quote:

You can only guess that once the car was a few metres off the road where the GPS thought it should be that it then tried to get back onto the highway. Unfortunately there was a rather large trailer in the way.

Not sure if that's the case, since at least Google Maps "knows" about rest areas. I personally don't know what Tesla uses or how they integrate it with both the lane following and/or collision avoidance, but it's pretty clear if the car was under navigation control, its integration with lane following/collision avoidance is 3rd rate, at best. The navigator should keep the lane following from FUBAR'ing that badly, and the likewise, navigator shouldn't steer the car into a parking spot and collision avoidance should have stopped the car before collision. This is really basic stuff that shouldn't get screwed up so badly.

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Well I don't know about anyone else, but occasionally my sat nav decides I'm actually on the minor road running right along side the main road and starts going nuts telling me to turn right / do a u turn / "recalculating". GPS is pretty good but it's accuracy can vary up to 5 to 10m on occasion if it looses a satellite or two / runs through some heavily wooded areas.

But I agree, wherever the car thought it needed to go it should have worked out that the big stationary object in front of it needed to be avoided.

My only guess is that the truck it actually hit was hidden by another truck parked further north. Maybe another truck was in the way trying to park so the car swerved to avoid it and hit something else instead?

But it should also have recognised it was in a service area and slowed down as it entered.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (irstuff)

SAE-AIR-1168-4, which covered icing and deicing on aircraft

I knew I had seen SAE somewhere to do with aircraft. Must be the FAA deicing tables.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

"SAE levels apply to automobiles, hence the A in SAE"

Society of Automotive Engineering - i.e. any self-powered mobile device, aircraft and spacecraft included.

As a young aero grad student, we published (or at least attempted to) in this journal as well as the AIAA journal(s):
https://www.sae.org/publications/collections/conte...

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

SAE-AIR is an entire series of aero-related documents; below are the ones I have PDFs of

SAE AIR 1064C Brake Dynamics.pdf
SAE AIR 1075A Barometry for Altimeter Calibration.pdf
SAE AIR 1093 Numeral, Letter and Symbol Dimensions for Aircra.pdf
SAE AIR 1102A Transparent Area Washing Systems for Aircraft.pdf
SAE AIR 1106A Some Factors Affecting Visibility of Aircraft Navigation and Anticollision Lights.pdf
SAE AIR 1151 Flight Compartment Glare.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-1 Thermodynamics of Incompressible and Compressible Fluid Flow.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-10 Thermophysical Characteristics of Working Fluids and Heat Transfer Fluids.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-13 Spacecraft Equipment Environmental Control.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-14 Spacecraft Life Support Systems.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-2 Heat and Mass Transfer and Air-Water Mixtures.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-3 Aerothermodynamic Systems Engineering and Design.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-4 Ice, Rain, Fog, and Frost Protection.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-5 Aerothermodynamic Test Instrumentation and Measurement.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-6 Equipment Components, Equipment Cooling System Design, and Temperature Control System Design.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-7 Aerospace Pressurization System Design.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-8 Aircraft Fuel Weight Penalty Due to Air Condi.pdf
SAE AIR 1168-9 Thermophysical Properties of the Natural Environment, Gases, Liquids, and Solids.pdf
SAE AIR 1221 Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) System Design Checklist.pdf
SAE AIR 1608 Estimation of Total Error in Altimetry.pdf
SAE AIR 1609 Aircraft Humidification.pdf
SAE AIR 1657A Handbook of Hydraulic Metric Calculations.pdf
SAE AIR 1667 Rotor Blade Electrothermal Ice Protection Design Considerations.pdf
SAE AIR 1678 Uncertainty of In-Flight Thrust Determination.pdf
SAE AIR 1703 In-Flight Thrust Determination.pdf
SAE AIR 1758 Limits and Fits - International Metric Tolerance System.pdf
SAE AIR 1780A Aircraft Flotation Analysis.pdf
SAE AIR 1812A Environmental Control Systems Life Cycle Cost.pdf
SAE AIR 1823A Engineering Analysis System (EASY)( Computer Program for Dynamic Analysis of Aircraft ECS.pdf
SAE AIR 1845 Procedure for the Calculation of Airplane Noise .pdf
SAE AIR 1855A Actuation System Data Summary for Missiles and Launch Vehicles.pdf
SAE AIR 1939 Aircraft Engine Life Cycle Cost Guide.pdf
SAE AIR 2000E Aerospace Fluid System Standards.pdf
SAE AIR 4013A Multiplex Data Bus Networks for Mil-Std-1760A Stores.pdf
SAE AIR 4015A Icing Technology Bibliography.pdf
SAE AIR 4092A PTFE Melt Phenomenon for High Pressure Hoses.pdf
SAE AIR 4093 Compendium of Gas Properties R(1994).pdf
SAE AIR 4094 Aircraft Flight Control Systems.pdf
SAE AIR 4298 Impulse Test Machine.pdf
SAE AIR 4359 Effects of Hanging Loads.pdf
SAE AIR 4367 Aircraft Ice Detectors and Icing Rate Measuring Instruments.pdf
SAE AIR 4548A Real-Time Modeling Methods for Gas Turbine Engi.pdf
SAE AIR 4827 Modeling Techniques for Jet Engine Test Cell Aer.pdf
SAE AIR 4845 FMECA Process.pdf
SAE AIR 4911 Requirements Document for Sensor--Video Intercon.pdf
SAE AIR 5006-2 Volume II Probabilistic Design and Analysis Methods for Solid Rocket Boosters.pdf
SAE AIR 5020 Time-Dependent In-Flight Thrust Determination.pdf
SAE AIR 5022 Reliability and Safety Process Integration.pdf
SAE AIR 5080 Probabilistic Methods into the Design Process.pdf
SAE AIR 5086 Perceptions and Limitations Inhibiting the Appli.pdf
SAE AIR 5109 Applications of Probabilistic Methods.pdf
SAE AIR 5145 Directory of Databases Part I - Whole Body Anthr.pdf
SAE AIR 5396 Characterization of Aircraft Icing Conditions.pdf
SAE AIR 5689 Light Transmitting Glass Covers for Exterior Aircraft Lighting.pdf
SAE AIR 809 Metal Dimensional Change with Temperature.pdf
SAE AIR 818D Aircraft Instrument and Instrument System Standards.pdf

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

GPS is pretty good but it's accuracy can vary up to 5 to 10m on occasion if it looses a satellite or two / runs through some heavily wooded areas.

Sure, that's the subject of a wholly separate rant winky smile Google Maps likewise does not care where you were a second ago, or how you could have possibly slipped from going south to going east on a road that doesn't allow for that sort of movement; I always find it amusing watching it go through gyrations of "Rerouting" because it decided I was on a different road, due to my traveling on the carpool overpass above that road. Most of the time, it works OK, but obviously it's not really "navigating"; it's only instantaneously keeping you on the path to a destination, which isn't quite the same thing. And, it's obviously "letting" you do the actual driving.

Nevertheless, since Tesla is ostensibly some sort of overwatching and overarching function, it SHOULD do the full blown navigation; otherwise, why the extra cost for the electronics and software?

Another nitnoid are these annoying artifacts on certain (most?) roads that seemingly are forks(?) that Google Maps insist exists in the middle of a straight-line section of the road. Pity the poor souls that have an exit immediately after the "fork" that they have to stay on the left of, and then have to take a right-side exit.

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

not all gps systems are equal.

Maybe why teslas on galleo is not having the sane issues.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

One of the big issues with self driving is anything more than cursory reliance on maps and global positioning to influence driving operation. Navigation and driving have separate requirements and are only slightly interrelated. Roads move and maps don't always get updated. Conditions change due to roadworks, accidents, weather, etc... Knowing what road you are on on a map should have only very minor influence on the choices made regarding speed choice and obstacle avoidance etc. Any automated system that is heavily dependent on global positioning for driving is unlikely to be broadly successful.

Again it should be noted that there are several other cars on the road that have abilities that rival Tesla's but they don't seem to have the same issues likely because they have bigger requirement for driver engagement.

Waymo and Cruise seem to be the leaders in automobile automation. With Cruise taking passengers and operating without drivers on public roads. Though they are speed limited and geofenced.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

Any automated system that is heavily dependent on global positioning for driving is unlikely to be broadly successful.

Which is probably the philosophy that gets Teslas to like to crash into gore point guard rails or slide into semi trucks. Having information that could prevent an accident and ignoring it seems to me to be a cardinal sin

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I highly doubt Tesla is using GPS to decide where the car should be on the road. For navigation, as in deciding what route to travel, sure. For positioning, no.

As mentioned already, if you look at the highway the solid white line shifts right as the new exit lane starts. The car was simply following this solid line and drove off the exit. This same thing has happened in a number of other incidents with Tesla autopilot, and has been reported many times by owners who have found there are spots on their commute highways the car tries to exit or change lanes when it shouldn't.

Looking at the street view, I'm pretty sure most any newer car could exit into that parking lot at 70mph without much issue.

The part I still don't get is how it ended up turned into the truck. I'm thinking it saw the angled parking lines and tried to turn left into the continuation of what it though was the driving lanes. By the picture, I think it's under the truck at an angle, not straight on.

Remember, it is mostly following the lines on the road. You can find lots of videos with it acting stupid trying to follow various lines on the roads.

Also remember, Tesla is trying to do the autopilot using cameras only. Musk has often spoken out against systems using other types of sensors. Cameras are only as good as the image processing. Do the image processing wrong when trying to determine what objects are seen in the images from the cameras and then you don't even know there is an object in front of the car. Case in point was Tesla attempting to drive under a transport trailer a few years ago. Using something like radar you at least get a signal saying something is out there blocking the path of the car. I understand the return is processed too, but that can be done outside of the "AI" engine. Of course calling the electronics operating these systems AI is as big a misnomer as calling the Tesla driving system autopilot.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

from recent news... level 4, assuming they are using the same levels. ponder

https://interestingengineering.com/china-first-sol...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I really don't understand Tesla / Musks issue with radar or Lidar. It's difficult to see what objection they have when it gives you a different input into the decision making like - this is a solid object - don't drive into it, versus some sort of software determining that it can be ignored or not joining the dots.

My point about the GPS was that the driving software would only realise it was on the "wrong road" once it had left the main carriageway and then would try to plot a route back to the main road.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

I really don't understand Tesla / Musks issue with radar or Lidar. It's difficult to see what objection they have when it gives you a different input into the decision making like - this is a solid object - don't drive into it, versus some sort of software determining that it can be ignored or not joining the dots.

I think the main objection has always been about cost of the lidar, since the Tesla does use radar, but Musk hides that by claiming he wants only what a human eyeball/brain would have seen.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

These things really should come with ejection seats…

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Great until they go off in a tunnel, parking structure or under a bridge....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

..or actually any time you don't desperately need them. Horrible things.

And don't get me started on the HFI nightmare which is having a stripy handle between your legs when you're a bit nervous, know that you have to keep your hands off the flying controls and really have no other place to put them.

A.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

You'd just get ejected into the bottom of the truck trailer as the car goes under it, ensuring you're dead.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

The current beta software from Tesla is called "Tesla's Full Self Driving" so that isn't designed to mislead the public when it is only Level 2 driving assist. ponder

Good video here.


Some discussion and a video here, no doubt plenty of other videos you can see too.

Here you can see that the Tesla seems to start to stop the car broadside in front of 50mph traffic because its detection software has falsely detected a box truck magically appear in space. (You can see the screen to see what it is detecting.)

The driving didn't give the Tesla time to try to correct its mistake and took over. Who knows how that would have ended up.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

LOL, that's impressive. I see it consistently does two rather bad driving things.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

We need these videos to make a whole new category of YT entertainment: lithium combustion, auto-driving hits and misses, and (my personal favourite) seats ejecting in tunnels.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Did the programmers never attend driver ed? My instructor would have given a failing grade.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I love the quote in one of those links - " but the decision-making is still the equivalent of a 14-year-old who has been learning to drive for the last week and sometimes appears to consume hard drugs....."

Looks about right to me. Think of the AI bit like a new learner driver and you're not far off I think. I wonder if the technology levels can use some these analogies...

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

Did the programmers never attend driver ed?

You're assuming the software developers have a driver's license and that it was issued by a govt with similar "rules of the road" as ours. Many would not fulfill one or both criteria.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

Did the programmers never attend driver ed?

That's a bit of a dodge, isn't it? Just because you personally don't know anything about driving doesn't mean you can't hire someone who does and who can lay out the requirements for defensive driving.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

IRS... I thought it was humour...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Possibly, but every joke has a grain of truth. Nevertheless, companies like Tesla, Uber, Waymo, Amazon, etc., have to duty to do solid systems engineering, and the first two seemingly have failed miserably to do so, particularly in the case of Tesla, which has continued to experience failings in their algorithms, because they don't seem to have done the systems engineering. The lack of integrated and comprehensive driving logic appears to not exist at all.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote (JohnRBaker)

But from the photo, it's obviously NOT a Tesla

Mazda3

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

IRS... concur...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

As they should. The article references a fatal, rear-end collision with a motorcyclist while using Autopilot in Utah last month at night https://www.ksl.com/article/50445474/motorcyclist-...

This is something that even my company's rudimentary obstacle avoidance logic would have avoided back in 1994 using conventional programming. Tesla's overly-hyped software should have had no problems warning the driver and preventing the collision in what should have been a nearly empty road (4 lanes + HOV) at 1 am in the morning

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

The second article has the key conflict highlighted.

If indeed "Auto pilot" and "full Self Driving" are features able to be used, why would it require active driver supervision??

For too long Tesla have been trying to have it both ways - A system which drives the vehicle with the driver barely paying any attention and with its hands off the wheel ( how else can it turn itself??) and yet needing "officially" for the driver to be alert and providing active supervision.

According to Tesla's website, both technologies "require active driver supervision," with a "fully attentive" driver whose hands are on the wheel, "and do not make the vehicle autonomous."

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

" why would it require active driver supervision??"

Because those features are SAE Level 2, and Level 2 requires active driver supervision, which means that the driver is technically supposed to be driving and only aided by the "feature."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

L2 is well defined, it is driver assistance. L3 is amazingly badly defined, I can't make any sense of it. However Honda and Merc have both released L3 cars, sounds like a lawyers picnic to me.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Looking on the bright side the riders in an autonomous vehicle, won't ever be blamed for a wreck, since those cars are not suppose to have any sort of control in them, no steering wheel no brakes. Yes would be like riding in an elevator with no buttons. How many will trust that vehicle? Especially with all the problems that exist now with auto pilot systems in cars or planes. How many would like to trust their lives to nano separated electronics, and sensors that can be fooled? Yes then the millions of lines of code to run it all.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

L3 is amazingly badly defined

I don't think that, but I don't think it likely that any car can really meet Level 3 at least not now, which requires the car to do ALL of the traffic condition monitoring and make all the real-time decisions, particularly when it recognizes that it cannot complete a driving task. Of course, any car system designed with a "don't hit anything" overarching mandate would come closer to Level 3 than Tesla.

In any case, it has to exist on the waterfall toward truly full autonomy

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I am no fan of software that takes decisions how the car should be driven in relation to it's surroundings. I cannot yet see those systems getting so sophisticated that they would be failure proof under all circumstances. Even if they do attain that level, there still is the risk of other vehicles driven by humans in a way that cannot reasonably be foreseen - think of somebody who wants to kill himself by driving into another vehicle on purpose...

Apart from that, there is another reason I am reluctant to use systems that do take over control over the car you drive. Simple cruise control and the better adaptive systems are nice on long boring drives - but as a driver you might loose concentration and not being able to act when needed. The same goes for navigation systems. In the past I carried a lot of road maps to help me get to where I wanted to go to. Nowadays I let the navigation system tell me how to get there - and thus have no idea where I am - I just react to instructions to turn left or right etc.

My experience with all those features is that they tend to make you "lazy", paying less attention to what happens at the actual moment - what potentially can be very dangerous. Not only when you are mountain climbing or walking in a "rough" neighbourhood, but also when driving a vehicle. You tend to loose attention and that puts you in danger. Nice that a sophisticated system is capable of taking some corrective action - but you should not have got in that situation in the first place.

When Alec Issigonis designed the Mini he purposely designed seats that were rather uncomfortable - with the argument that that would keep the driver attentive. I think he had a point there.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

When those "levels" were defined, I don't think anyone clued in that safely implementing Level 3 means the car has to cleanly and safely hand over control to the driver under all circumstances. It can't just say "BEEP" "I don't know what to do, please take over" when it's a second away from getting into trouble while travelling 130 km/h.

If the car driving on Level 3 automation is reaching the end of circumstances under which it can be used, it has to handle a driver who is not responding, e.g. by switching on emergency flashers and pulling over into a breakdown lane.

If it encounters sudden heavy fog, or snow, or ice, that has to be handled safely even if the driver takes no action when prompted.

I do not think Level 3 can be safely implemented. If it can do Level 3, it can do Level 4.

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

That is they will assume some actual objects are just colors and textures on the surface of the road.

That's why we have two eyes, but it appears that Tesla's forward cameras are placed closer together than desirable for long range triangulation, so it's indeed possible that parallax isn't strong enough to weed that sort of thing out. That said, the cited optical illusion is flat on the ground, so even Tesla's cameras should be able to figure out the "girl" has no height

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

I had a friend with only one working eye. He was able to drive his VW bug all over the place. Safely.

So the spacing of the two forward cameras may not be all that important.

Driving a car is done over time. A single camera can take samples over time IF IT IS MOVING, and use those for triangulation.

All that said, I am not impressed with a person who refuses to add lidar to his navigation system because it threatens his ego. I'd add smell-a-vison if it would lessen the chance of a problem!



spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Quote:

I had a friend with only one working eye. He was able to drive his VW bug all over the place. Safely.

But, does he drive like he might have driven had he two eyes? One can certainly drive with limitations on eyesight, or limbs, etc., but those ought to drive with much more caution and defensively. The fact that Teslas continually get into stupid accidents says that its software does not drive defensively.

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RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

"But, does he drive like he might have driven had he two eye?"

Yes, he did. I did not know he was missing a working eye until sometime later. I sat next to him for several hours, as he drove, and never suspected he had only one working eye.

I think my point stands. Well, points:

1. An entity can safely travel California's roads and freeways with only one visual data gathering device.

2. A person can be so full of themselves that...


spsalso

RE: Tesla "autopilot" disengages shortly before impact

Spalso, I too know a driver that lost his vision (in a crash of all places). He has safely navigated familiar roads for the last decade and can ride small motorcycles but not comfortable getting back on freeway capable sized bikes.

Something very important to consider is your brain's ability to learn for decades and then function using that retained knowledge despite losing an input. I think learning to drive without depth perception would be much more challenging than losing your depth perception after learning how to drive.

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