×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
• Talk With Other Members
• Be Notified Of Responses
• Keyword Search
Favorite Forums
• Automated Signatures
• Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

#### Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

# Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

## Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

(OP)
Good afternoon everyone,

Currently involved in a project that needs to check suitability for change of service in a tank.
Although the service change has no impact in the roof, i replicated the design in AME Tank.
Major concerns:
Construction code used: DIN 4119 (not supported in my AME TANK License)
Tank ID: 31 090 mm
Largest normal force in the ribs = 3.388 ton
beta assumed to be = 1.0 (unconnected ribbed grid-type);

After checking results, AME Tank warned me that roof structure was not well dimensioned which led me to check calculation note.

Manufacturer calculated minimum moment of inertia for profile and got the result Jx min = 676 cm^4. They then proceed to chose a profile IPN 140 with a moment of inertia lower than this value! (Jx IPN 140 = 573 cm^4).
They justify this choice by calculating maximum moment of 2nd order and then maximum normal stress of 2nd order. Result is a moment 1.334 Tn/cm^2 just below the limit of 1.4 Tn/cm^2 of API 650 (95% soliciation limit).

This is not a confortable result for me. At this moment i am wondering if this approach is correct or if we should advise a roof structure repair.

Best regards,

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

Is this a steel dome with internal ribs? Or aluminum geodesic dome?
In either case, I'm not aware of any standardized method to do the analysis, so I would expect results to vary considerably depending on the design assumptions made, method of analysis, etc. And with that in mind, I would be very reluctant to pay any money to "fix" an issue shown in one analysis that wasn't shown in the original analysis.
In one of my college classes, the old professor said "Never measure the hardness of the same piece of material twice. If you do, you'll have two different numbers, and won't know which one to use." And similarly, the proverb that "A man with one watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

(OP)
Yes steel dome with internal ribs.
We have a signed contract with the client to check for tank integrity for new service. Service change doesn't affect roof so it would be a problem since original construction.
Even though there is no standardized method, if the manufacturer chose DIN 4119, and even after calculating minimum profile moment of inertia they chose one that does not meet requirements. What would be your opinion on this?

Best regards.

EDIT: I should add that AMe tank, through API 650 is telling me allowable stress is 260% above limit state (limit being 100%)

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

ER. yuntislol (Mechanical),

- DIN 4119-2 ( Oberirdische zylindrische Flachboden-Tankbauwerke aus metallischen Werkstoffen; Berechnung) Released at 1980 and withdrawn at 2004 ..

- DIN EN 14015 (released at 2004 ) and AFAIK ,final version released at 2017

Apparently , you are looking for to change the service of an exisitng tank probably 30+ years old. Your approach , to check the tank as per API 650/653 seems not reasonable since , it is not API 650 tank ( probably will not comply the requirements of API 650)

Instead of hybrid approach ( loads as per EC, standard 650 , material of construction St 37-2, St-44..) why you do not check as per EN 14015 ?

#### Quote (if the manufacturer chose DIN 4119, and even after calculating minimum profile moment of inertia they chose one that does not meet requirements.)

Is the only problem , non-conformance rib stress ? which requirements ?

Can you post some details of the roof and rib calcultion and provide info. for the tank?

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

(OP)
Mr. HTURRAK.

Tank construction code is API 650 with the exception of the roof structure! Roof radius is over the API max curvature >1.2 OD (roof radius is 1.5 OD)

TANK ID = 31090 mm
Tank height = 14630 mm
Dome radius = 46 635 mm
Roof thk = 5mm
Top angle = 150x150x14 mm
bottom slope 1:120
bottom thk = 10 mm
1 stifferner IPN 200 @ 10330 mm
all plate materials are A283 Gr. C

Seismic info:
SUG 1
Soil type C
T_L = 2 sec
Ss (g) = 0.23
S1 (g) = 0.09

wind velocity = 30 m/s
wind pressure profile:
0~5 = 1.07 kPa
5~10 = 1.32 kPa
10~15 = 1.46 kPa
roof and shell pressure coef= 0.7

According to manufacturer calc note, they proceed to calculate what is attached. Not sure if i should raise the question for a future study, since the tank has been constructed for 30+ years. But if there is an error i feel obligated to let the client know.

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

#### Quote (yuntislol .....According to manufacturer calc note, they proceed to calculate what is attached. Not sure if i should raise the question for a future study, since the tank has been constructed for 30+ years. But if there is an error i feel obligated to let the client know.)

I am not sure if the tank construction code is API 650 with the exception of the roof structure.. Probably a mixture of codes .. ( tank roof radius 1.5 OD is allowed at BS 2654 ).. If the tank bottom and the shell complies with API 650 and the roof structure ( when checked with AME TANK ) does not comply , (AME tank showing allowable stress is 260% above for the roof structure ), IMO, this non-compliance shall be digged more rather than concealing.. In this case, checking the roof structure by an experienced structural eng. with a different software ( structural eng. softwares SAP 2000 etc ) should be way to go..

I looked the excerpt of roof calculation report. Without knowing if adding a center column would hinder the process with new service, i would go with Adding a central column to the dome roof..With this option, the roof no longer would be self supporting and the max.allowed curvature ( API standard ) ≤ 1.2 OD could be circumvented . Moreover, the axial stress will approach to zero and bending stress will also substantially reduce..

I would like to see the roof bracing .

My opinion..

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

(OP)
Mr. HTURRAK,

Thank you for your opinion. I cannot disclose any drawings outside of the organization.
What are your thoughts on calculation the maximum normal stress of second order through maximum moment of 2nd order despite the calculated profile does not meet the requirements of minimum moment of inertia?

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

#### Quote (yuntislol Mr. HTURRAK, ....What are your thoughts on calculation the maximum normal stress of second order through maximum moment of 2nd order despite the calculated profile does not meet the requirements of minimum moment of inertia? .)

IMO, the minimum moment of inertia ( Ixxmin = 676 cm^4 ) still not enough and will not meeet the requirements of API 650 and new loading. Just for an example, similar roof with tank diameter 36 m, i remember INP 240 rafters..

### RE: Dome roof structure calculation according to DIN 4119

(OP)
Exactly my thougt. Thank you for your input. I only get valid results after IPN 200.

Even though the tank is already built for 30+ years. I know that steel only gets plastic deformation at about 210 Mpa, and we are assuming 140 Mpa, but still not a safe construction

#### Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

#### Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

#### Resources

Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds
Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Download Now
Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a partâ€™s function at the center of their design considerations. Download Now
Taking Control of Engineering Documents
This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. Download Now

Close Box

# Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

• Talk To Other Members
• Notification Of Responses To Questions
• Favorite Forums One Click Access
• Keyword Search Of All Posts, And More...

Register now while it's still free!