Engine designs that have problems
Engine designs that have problems
(OP)
Since the one thread I started, is headed way off topic, reason for this.
Engine designs that have problems or have had them.
I'll start with the 3 valve Triton.
This guy explains. Has data from others that deal with the same problems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcN_WcGr4BU
Engine designs that have problems or have had them.
I'll start with the 3 valve Triton.
This guy explains. Has data from others that deal with the same problems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcN_WcGr4BU
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I think most complaints are based around the comparatively high labor costs of today. That isn't exactly an engineering problem.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Here's the website I took this from:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17...
That being said, this item at least provides anecdotal support for your claim:
And this it the site this item was taken from:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Engine designs that have problems
I would still tend to think 'keep it as simple as possible, and no simpler' is better. Adding more parts to manage exhaust is not keeping it simple, and is likely a big part of the automotive issues. Also short life parts used in more modern cars, like plastics, computers, etc.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Would it perhaps be a cam follower? If so, why the name change?
spsalso
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
spsalso
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
How much data?
What's the real failure rate?
What's the failure rate within the warranty period?
How does this compare to historical failure rates for similar engines in similar use cases?
What's the failure rate associated with insufficient maintentance?
You don't know.
Food for thought though- Ford produced nearly 20 million 5.4L Tritons over the 20 year production run of this specific variant. 20 million. So what's the real failure rate?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
SnTMan (Mechanical)
5 May 22 14:04
enginesrus. you mentioned the 3.0 Duramax in that other thread. Could you elaborate please?
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The use of timing chains, and a rubber (not sure of the material) belt that drives the oil pump. All at the flywheel end.
Just bad choices. Maybe lasting to the end of the warranty period. As always cutting corners and cheap/ inexpensive to build.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1979JBAA...90...45...
Much smoother and more precise.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
A couple of months later, we got a recall notice from GM covering this exact issue with the idler pulley. It seems that Opel had been using this design for a couple of years in Europe without any problems, but apparently after a couple of years in the hot, dry conditions of Southern California, this caused that 'urethane' cover to come loose and fall off. Now most of the time, it just caused the accessory belt to fail, but in about 10% of the cases, it ended up like what happened with our car.
Then in 2000, Cadillac decided that, even though our car had already been fixed with a properly designed idler pulley, they decided to make good on the cars that had had the seized engines, replacing our 1997 Catera with new 2000 model, at no additional cost. We drove that car for about three years, before selling it.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
SnTMan (Mechanical)
5 May 22 23:42
enginesrus, bear with me please. The belt I get, but timing chains are very common. What would you propose instead?
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I'll answer the question with a question.
What has been used for years to connect the camshaft to the crankshaft? It is a history lesson.
And start the study with the Fair Banks Morse OP engines, that is even more demanding of an Engine crankshaft drive connection.
Then move on to the older NT Cummins truck engines, Caterpillar truck and equipment engines, Detroit Diesel 71 Series, EMD 645 Engines, the early 50's Chevrolet 235 and before that date models, I could go on.
Yes timing chains common on I'll designed junk, not made to last, study the BMW fiasco, https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2020/bmw-timing... .
Chains stretch, and can cause OBD Codes, the fix is a huge cost, especially if valves hit pistons etc. etc..
RE: Engine designs that have problems
If you want to build/sell crap, don't bother.
spsalso
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Just because some timing chain designs wear prematurely doesn't condemn the entire concept.
Gotta go. I have to drive to work in a car powered by a Fiat 1.4 MultiAir with a timing belt driven OHC 16 valve engine that has just short of 230,000 km on it.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5
Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. - http://xkcd.com/319/
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
300k km without a change when it got scrapped due rust. Engine was still sweet no drop in compression over the 6 years and 120k km I put on it
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It is my impression that they did considerable modifications to the engine that made its way into the Supra specifically for reliability (if that's what you are concerned about).
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Why is anyone still engaging in this guy's threads
This is how it goes every single time.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
My engineering failure successfully got me to a job site, and back to the office, despite the pretty big number on the odometer. Nothing bad happened.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Another author on WWII engines, Bill Gunston, points out that all the important engines of WWII, were flying prior to the war. Some good aircraft were developed very quickly, but good engines take years. Douglas argues that Rolls Royce and Pratt and Whitney were successful during the war because they designed engines that were absolutely conventional, they debugged them quickly, and they spent the war souping them up.
--
JHG
RE: Engine designs that have problems
On a more modern note, the engine used in late model Ford Fusion sedans has/had a heating problem which would damage the head gasket. There is currently a factory recall on that issue.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Why is anyone still engaging in this guy's threads
This is how it goes every single time.
-------------------------------------------------------
The threads are meant to point out problems.
Why not just talk the technical and not the Personal about a person posting something here?
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drawoh (Mechanical)
6 May 22 16:33
An excellent book on engine development during WWII is The Secret Horsepower Race by Calum Douglas. Very buggy Napier Sabres made into service because the British needed aircraft that could catch Fw-190s. Calem Douglas is an engineer and engine designer, so he understands the subject.
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Yes great examples of excellent engineering, No timing chains there. The use of flammable metal in some of the engine parts though was not good idea for an engine in an aircraft(USA engines). Calum shows how those German engine builders did the best they could with the lack of proper materials.
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Quote (BrianPetersen)
So having a timing chain/belt is an engineering failure??
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The people that assemble the product didn't design that system so, yes.
Just ask the people that purchased the product and had to deal with such
on a vehicle that they thought would last longer. Some have paid
10 times or more what a house would have cost in the late 50's for those vehicles.
The design is the cheap alternative to what would be a proper design. But of course
those savings are not past on to the consumer.
Many times the supposed cost savings by using an incorrect design ends up costing way more
than using the correct design. Use the example posted above or think Takata airbag.
The list could go on.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Speaking of an engine failure, the BMW N54 engine has my favorite. They used a NBR o-ring on the oil filter housing. This specific material has a very short life at engine temperatures and quickly loses resilience. This results in a leak from the oil filter housing which wets the serpentine belt. The serpentine belt is made from EPDM rubber which is actually quite a good choice for this application provided you can keep it from getting oily. Once oiled, the belt very quickly starts to degrade and shed it's reinforcement. Nothing too unique here yet BUT... The reinforcement cord pumps it's way through the crankshaft front seal and in to the oil pan where it clogs the anti-vortex strainer on the oil pump. This then starves the engine for oil, destroying it.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Not aware of reliability being a factor.
And yes, I know, pushrods. No thanks. Not in that application.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I don't know of too many bad designed L head engines, continental built them into the 70's as far as I know, they run just great, even when at the point of needing a major overhaul.
It is an I (eye) designation, short for INLINE, that specifies the inline engines, not an L.
Question of the day: The famous Chevrolet small block, what was a common problem at around the 100,000 mile point?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Overhead valve came to prominence in order to increase the power output of engines. If one were to operate an overhead valve engine at flathead power levels the OHV engine may last longer still. Imagine your 302 Ford rated at 80 horsepower.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Thankfully after years of fixing landrovers I have never felt the urge to get one.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Lucas was known crap but the heavy mechanics was easy. The current models are nuts.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Those engines lacked guides and tensioners for the chain. The sprockets had fixed center distances. The chain was allowed to flop around (relatively) loosely.
The GM LS engines have guides and tensioners. The modern Ford V8 engines use overhead camshafts, and guides and tensioners. The modern Chrysler Hemi has guides and tensioners.
The absence of guides and tensioners in the original American pushrod engine designs presumably gave durability that was in line for expectations in the era in which they were designed.
The newer ones are better.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The thing that lowered life in those 50's days was, the oils not so great, the road draft tube not so great. And no when the chains were new they had almost no flop. Guides are a bad thing.
As long as they weren't goofing around with phenolic or plastic for the cam gear, never saw a timing gear failure.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The Atlas series of engines had 4, 5, and 6 cylinder variants which shared many internal components. Pistons, valves, con-rods, and all related components were all the same. There's nothing wrong with modular design.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0FAMMvWpBQ
What do you think? You have to change it every 80k km.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It isn't personal. I know very little about you personally.
What I do know is that you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about.
'Talking the technical' would involve data. You have none. You post the exact same 'they did it better in the 40s' thread about once a week it seems in various forums, and you never have any data. Ever. Your idea of proving something is bad is 'I saw one break once and it came into my garage and now I hate it'.
This is an engineering forum. Full of engineers. Our entire lives are dedicated to the dispassionate evaluation of data- if you had some we'd all likely be quite pleased to evaluate it.. but you never do. Your entire personality on this forum is based on proclaiming that all modern engineers are idiots and that you know better.
I don't know why all these other people wast a second of their time in these threads. To be completely honest, I don't know why I do either. Probably because your 'additions' bring the overall quality of this forum down, and that bothers me.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
That engine uses a timing chain. Are you thinking about the serpentine belt? That's external, and easy to replace.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Just it doesn't look like any timing chain I have done before
Not saying there is anything wrong with it just haven't seen the like before.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The 94 has a single row timing chain with some really long, slender cast iron guide/ tensioner elements. At ~170 k it swallowed some fractured pieces of same. Some pieces went into the oil pan where they remain today. I'm careful to avoid negative G's :)
Meanwhile the 84 with a double row chain has no problems at 250 k. The better designed, built of the two in many ways.
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
BrianPetersen (Mechanical)
8 May 22 03:08
Timing chain guides are a GOOD thing in that they avoid the chain whipping around.
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Problem is many of them seem to fail. Pulleys like used on timing belt applications would be a better though more expensive choice, to stop the whipping around.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
spsalso
RE: Engine designs that have problems
This is the 1965 Superhawk, after I rebuilt and painted it Candyapple Blue (this was the bike I owned when we got married and I was forced to buy a car as my soon-to-be wife refused to go on a honeymoon on the back of a bike):
June 1967 (Kodak Brownie Twin 20)
And this is the 1968 Superhawk that I rebuilt and painted, only this time I only used the gold Candyapple undercoat and then the clear top coat, skipping the color coat:
April 1974 (Minolta SRT-101)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
re the mentioned engine above - 80k km seems like an absurdly short lifespan for a cam chain. I wonder if that is a misquote or a misunderstanding?
Yeah, overall I'd rather have a timing chain than a belt, I am sure the chain is not as quiet and a bit more costly, but...
And on the topic of engines good and bad - while I had great luck with GM/Buick V6, both 3.8, 3300, and 3800, my current car and its predecessor have the Chev 3.6.
DOHC, vvt, and lots of scary cam chains. I understand it is 8-12 shop hours to swap the timing chains.
But they last well over 150k miles given at least casual oil changes, and run great. (well, my first had over 150k when it got totaled, its replacement has only 120k miles)
So far so good...
Jay Maechtlen
http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
And his usual customers will probably keep them maintained, so the issue will probably not recurr.
I wonder if you could connect an oil supply at the oil filter mount, and pump solvent then oil through the system to clean it out?
Jay Maechtlen
http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Thank you. Now that I live in SoCal, I kind of wish I still had at least of those bikes today (I lived in Michigan when I was driving them).
No, the engine was not an integral part of the frame on the Honda CB72/77 series (the CB72 was 247 cc and CB77 was 305 cc). Bikes from companies like Ducati, they were structurally more part of the frame. However, the most notorious of that style of bike was the Vincent Black Shadow, a bike that was very unsafe. It was great as long as the didn't want to stop or turn corners. It had perhaps the worst brakes of any large motorcycle and because there was no real frame, it tended to flex which made it very unstable when turning. That being said, going straight it was one of the fastest motorcycles of it's time. I never drove one and have only seen them in museums, like this one, a 1952 Vincent Black Shadow as seen in the 'Sturgis Motorcycle Museum & Hall of Fame' in Sturgis, South Dakota:
October 2009 (Sony A100)
To give you and idea about how people felt about this overpowered (55 hp) English bike (with English brakes and ignition system), journalist and author Hunter S. Thompson once wrote that "If you rode the Black Shadow at top speed for any length of time, you would almost certainly die. That is why there are not many life members of the Vincent Black Shadow Society." The bike is mentioned several times in Thompson's 1971 novel, 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_2300_engin...
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Found this after looking at the wiki page.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The Armstrong 500 was a dog.
And the aviation engines keep pilots in practice for forced landings
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlPtMVijIzs
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The whole thing was an engineering disaster. I'd consider the Vega to be the 737-MAX of automobiles, only way worse. Conversely, my brother and later my sister each had a Pinto. They were wonderful cars by comparison.
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Pretty sure Vegas mostly got turned into scrap :)
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Years ago, this cost me many hours of frustration, and the scrapping of a $2,000 riding mower. Now I find this easy fix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggV0wS6VMSs
Just momentarily block the air intake while cranking.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Compositepro (Chemical)
Yeah and you can turn it a bit by hand too off compression, to give in a running head start. The big problem is when the parts that broke move like if you go over a bump, and broke parts get bounced into the moving parts, not so good things can happen.
Even repairing those engines is no guarantee it will not break again, the system is a good idea but not built correctly, why is that? Sarcastically its not because of engineering!
Then there is the ill designed cylinder head, block deck interface, that can barely hold the head gasket in place, why is that? Yup engineering disaster.
Engineering Disasters, isn't that what this section here on this site is about?
Engineering failures / disasters end up costing someone something.
There really is no excuse for most of these engine problems nowadays. Do they just not test things and depend solely on a computer simulation these days? I just don't see how else this can happen.
Or is it that there are no more real machinists that do the preliminary fabrication and building these engines, that can point out to the engineer that this won't work well or last too long.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It should be "never designed anything for Lowes and Home Depot consumer level mass production".
You could build almost any consumer item to last, but hardly anyone would buy it because it cost more than the penny pinched one on the shelf beside it.
Also, calling the quality of a low end consumer grade Home Depot engine an engineering disaster is a big stretch. If it doesn't have the potential to kill then it's hardly a disaster.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Again there is just no excuse for the, for lack of better terms, the stupidity of some of the designs, especially when there is an existing design that has been proven, for in some cases almost a century.
It just makes no sense when simple "just look at it" logic is thrown out the door, for example that cylinder head deck interface.
Mass production? yeah the items I worked on where always very expensive, not the normal box store stuff.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I could clarify my statement and just say its clear to me you've not ever designed anything using an engineering process, whether mass produced or not. You have literally no idea what's involved, and no idea why the things you complain about on this forum are the way they are.
Credit where credit is due though- calling a system failure on a lawnmower engine an ENGINEERING DISASTER is hilarious. So I guess that's a mark in the plus column.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Now lets get back to Engine designs. So how come there are some manufactures that have such a difficult time getting roller lifters to last? What is causing this? I know of many engines in the past that used the same that had very long lives.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I AM criticizing your approach to whatever it is you're trying to accomplish by posting here.
I'm sure there are aspects of your life in which you're an expert. The area of evaluating the work of engineers is not one of them. There is no shame in that. I'm not an expert in recruiting college athletes. There's no shame in that, but I also don't go to college recruiting forums full of college coaches and tell them all how they're doing it all wrong and how Bear Bryant had it right in 1975 and all that's happened since then is devolution.
You constantly post complaints about all manner of things which seem to be rarely, if ever, based in empirical fact. When you're presented with information contrary to your non-fact-based opinions, you bristle and ignore it.
That's fundamentally not what engineers do, and it's contrary to the value and culture of this forum. You could change that by not dying on the hill of your own opinion, and actually taking the time to read and internalize rebuttals to the things you post. The trend so far seems to indicate that you won't ever do that, but ultimately the only person on this forum who can save your reputation is you.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Claiming no expertise, my guess is the cylinder de-activation schemes that have (relatively) recently come in to play. My only experience is with the FCA 5.7.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I have one of those. A new rocker is a $20-ish part. It's a few hours labour to replace if one goes bad. Meh.
(N.B. It's way more labour-intensive to replace a failed roller lifter on a pushrod Hemi. The Pentastar is DOHC, and you can get enough clearance to replace those lifters without fully removing the camshafts - just loosen the camshaft caps enough to get sufficient clearance to get them out and in.)
RE: Engine designs that have problems
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What usually fails on them? Needle bearings? The roller ? The pin? Have they determined if it is a material issue, or a quality of lubricant issue?
LionelHutz (Electrical)
13 May 22 11:45
You find a new forum complaint thread somewhere?
--------------------
This particular area is about Engineering Disasters, meaning some huge failures caused by bad engineering, so this is the correct place.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Something that marine engines do that auto engines don't, they run all the time.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
🥵
RE: Engine designs that have problems
GregLocock (Automotive)
14 May 22 09:40
The first thing an automotive engine design has to do before it gets any real development is to run for 100 hours continuous at peak power. If it survives that (some engines (eg Austin A+ turbo) do first time, others take months to get to that point (redacted), and others never get there (many SI to CI conversions in the 80s)) then it is deemed worthy of further development.
------------------------------------------
I suppose that is also why the conservative HP ratings on some automotive engines. I wonder if the high HP engines like the Hell Cat Hemi had to do that? Or do they "adjust" to a lower HP for the test?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Disclaimer, I don't know Chrysler ECU calibration, but it's pretty likely that it'll make that power level for as long as you can keep engine oil temp, trans temp, and coolant temp within range, and as long as internal mathematical models for certain critical component temperatures are satisfied. I do not know if the stock radiator and oil coolers are sufficient for continuous output at that rating ... I tend to suspect not.
Bear in mind that at 707 hp, those cars will drain their entire petrol tank of fuel in about 15 or 20 minutes, so there's an automatic time limit on how long one can sustain that ... and that's assuming Mr Policeman does not have a thing to say about it.
In the motorcycle world, the little 125cc scoots have quite a bit less specific power output than the 1000cc superbikes. It is presumed that the 125cc bikes (which usually have 12 or so horsepower) will be ridden flat out all the time except when a stop sign or traffic signal dictates otherwise, or perhaps in school zones. (Mine is ...) whereas it is presumed that the 1000cc superbikes cannot be ridden at max power output for significant lengths of time, even in track-day service.
My two-cylinder 321cc Yamaha R3 has key cylinder and valve dimensions that are within a millimetre or two of those of a four-cylinder Yamaha R6, but the rev limit is some 3000 rpm lower, and the specific power output is quite a bit lower (it makes about 40% of the power despite having 54% of the displacement). If "all else were equal" this is a bit more than half of an R6 engine ... but it's de-tuned in the interest of driveability and longevity.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Now they have optimized the weight and cost savings of the drivetrain components, just to consume all these weight and cost savings with hardware that has nothing to do with propelling a vehicle from A to B.
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
They consume it with unnecessarily high performance capabilities as well. Your average grocery getter family sedan has 0-60 times that rivals that of the muscles cars of the 70’s. Why? I guess because that’s what the markets want. That’s what the commercials tell us anyway.
What kind of reliability (and, dare I say, efficiency) could we get out of an engine/vehicle that had a top speed of <80 MPH and a 0-60 time that wasn’t suited 1/4 mile comparisons?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The old 235 Chevrolet inline 6 was rated at 140 HP, and could move a fairly heavy car or truck just fine. Absolutely no reason for 700 HP in any normal road car especially where high speeds are not allowed.
High HP? There are very few class 8 heavy trucks that have 700 HP, and for one to come close to a GEO Metro one of those trucks would need close to 2500 HP. MPG ? All this battle to get to high miles per gallon?
GEO Metro has been getting over 40 MPG for the last 33 years or so.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Comparing HD diesel power curves to light-duty gas tho is apples and oranges. A 15L making 700 hp is doing so for half the RPM range and will be producing ~2k lb-ft of torque at high idle. The aforementioned Hellcat's making 300 lb-ft at high idle and only producing 700 hp at its peak.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Couple vehicles ago, my 2006 VW Jetta, VW's compact car in that era, was very close to the same size as what it replaced, a 1996 Passat - VW's big car of its era.
The modern Fiat 500 that is my daily-driver today is roughly the same size as the first-generation Honda Civic that I learned to drive in, but it weighs almost 50% more. I'd sure take the odds of surviving a crash in the modern car versus the old one ... the crash structures are enormously stronger and it has much better safety equipment, 30 years of development will do that.
Powertrains? The engine sizes are almost the same, 1.4 in the Fiat, 1.5 in the Civic. The newer engine makes more power, although given the weight difference in the vehicle, acceleration is probably about the same. Fuel consumption is also about the same. The Fiat weighs more but the aerodynamics are better. The factor that is orders of magnitude different, are the CO, HC, and NOx emissions.
Durability? The Honda started burning oil after about 120,000 km, and it went to the junkyard with 12 years and about 180,000 km on it, completely rusted out and with nothing good left on it whatsoever. I put on more annual mileage now; the Fiat still runs practically like new with almost 230,000 km on it and the paint and interior are in great shape as well.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Guess what. The only people who car manufacturers listen to are the ones who buy new cars, and the legislators.
30 years ago we made a car with 6 seats, weighed 1418 kg, got around 20 mpgUS, had a 160 hp engine and a manual 5 speed. It had an AM/FM radio with a cassette player and 2 speakers
When we introduced the final model in 2014 it weighed 1704 kg, had only 5 seats (crash) airbags(crash) auto only (customer preference) full climate control (customer preference) dual cats (legislation), got 24 mpgUS, IRS, much bigger (heavier) wheels and tires, ABS, TC, ESC, full audio with 9 speakers including a subwoofer, electric windows, electric seats, met stiffer emissions and crash regs, 261 hp engine (actually the same one). It was faster, quieter, rode better and is more durable.
Now we didn't put that stuff in for fun, we did it because the people who buy new cars wanted that stuff and were prepared to pay for it.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
BMW engines and their bearing failure problems, and timing chain guides and oil pump drive chain failures.
How many Engines can we list with these sort of problems?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
We were on topic, but I digress.
Where's the data?
Ooo. For this one, we actually have data. This one affected me directly - I know the situation well. The recall was issued after an issue was found with a particular batch of rods during QC testing at the plant in Zuffenhausen.
Total 718 production for 2021 was 21,250.
Total number of vehicles affected by the connecting rod recall was 190. That's 0.8% for those of you playing along at home.
Of the 190 vehicles affected, only 20 had actually been delivered at the time the recall was issued. That's 0.09%.
Where's the disaster?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Me: Possible effects? Customer dissatisfaction.
Theywhodontwanttobethere: The engine could brick itself causing a reduction in braking force, a loss of control, and a pregnant nun's vehicle going off a bridge, landing on a schoolbus full of kids, and....
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
So you're saying the Aztec didn't have a row in the DFMEA that included customer perception?
...I've had three; still have one and it's coming up on 25 years old (I've had it for ~16).
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Because it makes my wife happy. She wanted a Charger and we bought a 3.6 powered model, it later needed minor repair and the loaner was a 5.7 - the moment she started it up I knew it would end up hers. And if she asks for a 6.4 or a Hellcat, she will get it.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I read that Porsche was using PM to make crankshafts, is that true? If so then the rods must be sintered as well, and would fully explain the problem.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
This subforum is 'engineering failures and disasters', not 'things which happened which had a small probability of resulting in property damage if they hadn't been caught during QC processes and properly addressed by the manufacturer before reaching the market in significant quantities'
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Everything has "that" problem, its called quality issues. We're manufacturing far more parts with far more complexity, with far fewer people, and doing so at a rate far faster than ever before. Even with ever-evolving QAQC crap happens and bad parts slip through accidentally. Occasionally vehicles are built with "bad" parts bc delaying sales is more costly than a warranty repair for minor issues. If issues didn't arise then OSHA and insurance companies wouldn't require hard hats and steel toes on plant floors. On the brighter side, for most every issue there's a severely underappreciated miracle of modern manufacturing.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
A few bad connecting rods is the best you can produce? Big deal.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Problem engines bought in, noticed that the cranks were slopping forwards and backwards, hence ramming the pulley into the CPS.
Looked at the thrust washer, and the crank was worn away, allowing the motion.
By this time practically the whole engine section was involved to some extent, obviously with the engine lab taking the lead.
So they did an Is/Is not, and identified the time period when the problem started.
Back over to the factory, found that the lapping machine had been refurbished at that date. For some reason they had reversed the direction it lapped in, and the new direction increased the wear rate.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
1987 Honda CB1 motorcycle
1998 Honda VFR800 motorcycle
1987 Subaru BRAT
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The choice from large recip aircraft engine manufactures, to use flammable magnesium castings for nose, accessory, and diffuser cases was a disaster waiting to happen, and many lives were lost because of it.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
how many, exactly?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Titanium is considered a flammable metal as well. Lots of titanium components in modern jet engines.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It so happens that I'm on holidays this week, currently surfing the net while sitting on a patio after a day of riding my 2004 Kawasaki motorcycle which right now has just short of 123,000 km on it. It's sitting right in front of me as I write this.
It has titanium exhaust headers! (Very light.) edit: And a magnesium valve cover, and a magnesium clutch cover.
And yet ... it's not on fire! And it has managed 123,000 km of not catching fire so far. Maybe it blows up tomorrow. If it does, I've had my money's worth!
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Sure, but the discussion was about the environment around an engine; titanium, even when under ballistic impacts, is not flammable, so engine compartments and exhaust are unlikely to cause titanium-induced fires.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I understood it was a big help... reducing pre-detonation from 'lighter' hydrocarbons in the gasoline mix...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I think it was my 68 Chevelle... have you ever tried to replace the starter motor?
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Everyone I know that has owned one has only done it once and were on first name terms with pretty much everyone at the garage.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I am glad I did look at this thread because I was made aware of these fine and very detailed references.
Amazing history of engineering - everything I thought was amazing engineering in F1 racing engines came from or developed from pre-WW2 and WW2:
This is an excellent book.
Fascinating backstory on the Vega engine development:
I hope to find a book on the Vega engine development.
Often, many engineering advancements are built on the data and analysis collected prior.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I bought a Honda Fit to replace my old sports cars/off roaders i drove when younger. Was sick of spending time and money on cars. Wanted something boring that wouldn't give me grief.
3 years later at 125,000km I need to replace the engine. cylinder ring is gone on the third cylinder.
cheaper to get a new engine than to fix. cars these days are getting to be a bit like home appliances... just throw away and replace.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
But the real problem is the cost of labor and the auto manufacturers have nothing to do with that. I have a block I need decked for a new head gasket and there is a months long lead time to get it under the mill.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Stay tuned, I guess :)
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It's been traced to a bad batch of valves which have been suffering stem failures. There's more failures so far than they are reporting there - last I was on the forum a couple of days ago, I believe the failure count was in the low 50s.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
All of this having parts sub contracted from out of country, ends up costing us. Manufacturing needs to be 100% in house, so tight controls are kept on processes. Huge engineering failure.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
And what exactly makes a 'decent' valve?
Who is the 'us' you think this particular failure is costing? Do you own a Bronco or have one on order?
Do you know who supplies the valves in question?
Do you know where they are manufactured?
Do you actually know anything about this problem, or are you just happy to claim the sky is falling?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I don't have any criticism of the design. It's amazing for a relatively short term development in the 60's. Timing chains came up and I thought the Cammer was interesting because of the length of the timing chain and its arrangement. The main problem with it was the NASCAR banned it in the fashion it banned the Boss 429.
Kyle
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The Boss 429 was allowed to qualify for Nascar homologation, I assume by negotiations between Ford and Nascar, with the intent of providing worthy competition to Chrysler's mighty Hemi, which had been dominating the high speed tracks since 1966. (There's a lot more to the story, which you probably know, so I will leave it at that, so as not to hijack this thread more than necessary.)
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Ran great, not super powerful but pretty peppy. Wouldn't quite do 80 mph over the top of Cajon Pass.
(picked up one of my brothers at LAX, accidentally drove most of the way home in 2nd gear before I noticed. Yes we were on the freeway)
At 80k miles its o-rings failed, allowing coolant into the chambers.
The family kind of sat and procrastinated, eventually I took its motor and another one wit the same problem apart.
It had sat around rusting for a while, so I had a devil of a time getting enough of the apex seals out intact.
But By mixing and matching, I got that sucker back together (new face seals and o-rings, refaced end and middle cases) and it ran fine.\
It ran for many years after that, until if got crashed again (sister got rear ended, I think) and she retired it in favor of a Torino.
(yeah, that must have been a shock to the driving perceptions)
So I consider the rotary to be a very decent motor.
Jay Maechtlen
http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
And all joking aside, some cases of magnesium fires in the piston airliners during rain events was catastrophic, there is information out there about it.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It was a tank engine and one of the fuel pipes fractured when the power pack was being replaced.
This was on the return line.
So it ran fine but filled up the engine bay.
When the engine turned off it started sucking fuel back through the return line and self feeding the engine. The revs went through the roof and quite quickly engine block failed above 10000 rpm. The gun barrel was over the engine bay for test driving and it blew the turret off and sprayed hot metal upwards and ignited the fuel left in the engine bay.
One broken leg off the turret and 1 nasty life altering burn resulted.
The fix was to put a nonreturn valve hard after the metering setup. Previously it was the other side of the fuel decouple in the engine bay. To change a power pack you had to decouple I think it was 2 fuel lines, 4 hydraulic and 3 electrical connections you could do it and swap the pack in under 30 mins.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
What usually happens is the company's reputation starts to slowly go down the sewer.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
"Reputation" is worse in that its often contrary to fact. Many studies of dual-branded vehicles have shown vastly different opinions of vehicles differing only in the badges. Its unfortunate, but preconceived notions and popular advertising shape reputations more than quality, and the general public largely cannot differentiate between paid advertising and hobbyist/entertainment rags/sites/awards.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Some of that big black mark was due to 1990s-era VW automatic transmissions. Mine was manual.
Some of that big black mark was due to sunroof drains becoming blocked and causing water to get into places that it shouldn't be. Mine didn't have a sunroof.
Some of that big black mark was due to various issues with the early VW VR6 petrol engines, which this model was a recipient of. Mine had the 1.9 litre 4 cylinder diesel engine, and it was bulletproof. And changing the timing belt was a reasonable do-it-yourself job, which I did myself a few times.
Some of that big black mark was due to certain electrical and electronic issues, and I will grant that the power supply for the instrument cluster was a weak point. Someone didn't do their cold-weather weak-battery validation well enough.
I sold that car with 462,000 km on it. Original clutch (although it was due), original transmission, original engine still running well, everything still worked. It needed to be taken off the road for a month to sort out various suspension-and-steering issues, and the paint needed attention to delay the onset of rust (it still looked good but you could tell that it needed attention), and as far as I know, the VW spare-time-mechanic who bought it from me, did just that and kept on driving. I saw it in a parking lot in a town near where I sold it some years later, and it still looked good.
It may have had the feared big black mark in Consumer Reports ... but my example was a good car.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
sorry, it is out of warranty. Looks to me like FCA/Stellantis addressed their issues with the Hemi by changing the warranty from 5 year/100K miles to 5 year/60K miles. Replacing wiped out
camshafts costs money.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The standard for engine durability for as long as warranties have existed has been for most of them to make it past the warranty period.
Warranty periods today are longer across the board - and in a lot of cases MUCH longer and more comprehensive - than the warranties from the era OP worships.
Todays engines are better in literally every respect... these arguments are straight up ridiculous.
In 1965 Chrysler was actually the first to offer 5 yr/50,000 mile powertrain warranties. This applied to every model sold from 1965 through 1972, except anything with a Hemi or 440 six pack; those models had 1 year and 12,000 miles, voided if the car was used in competition of any sort (ha ha).
In 1972 they changed the warranty for all models to.... 1 year and 12,000 miles. Why? Because the products they sold between 1965 and 1972 had not been all that reliable in the aggregate, and they lost MILLIONS of dollars on warranty coverage. Millions. Total Chrysler sales from '65 to '72 were over a million cars, and the average warranty cost per vehicle around that time was around $40. That's $40,000,000 in 1970 dollars.. that's an astronomical amount of money.
Sorry gents, but these fever dreams about bulletproof muscle cars from the 60s are total bull.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
And today the factories all warranty track failures under the regular 3/36 or better warranty. They'll even finance you a rollbar and time at their driving school as part of the vehicle purchase.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
And on top of that, the fire-breathing halo models are covered by that warranty too.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
You know like home testing for covid, how many positives are not reported? Data in many cases is not relevant. When the engine is out of warranty, how can data be obtained? With all the aftermarket parts available it can not be done through parts sales. So the only data available is hitting the web, and seeing the common failure points and how those failures keep repeating on the same engine. When you constantly ask for data what do you want? Would you want to see page after page of website links? I don't think this site would want tons of that posted here. Nor would most anyone here even look at them.
If one was truly interested in data on this particular topic, just travel the country and visit shops that deal with the products. I know this (constant asking for data) is not a case of really desiring data, it is just an arguing point.
All this goofy abstract data hunting is the problem with engineering now. Just look at the problem and come up with a fix. This is the main reason all us consumers are stuck with costly junk that will not last, past a warranty period.
MCAS comes to mind, why fix it whats the data? Only 2 planes out of how many? Very low percentage why bother. That is what I see here when I post about these various problems.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
But they track the accident rate by hours flown or number of flights.
And Boeing didn't want to fix it. And at this rate the max 10 is not going to be certified before the certification standards change.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
We (specifically, I) have been extremely clear across many of your threads about what data we would want in order to take your myriad complaints seriously, and have a real discussion about whether something is a problem, or not:
RATE.
Failure RATE is by far the most important data point. And it isn't just a point of argument. If you started one of these threads and said specifically 'Engine X has a failure rate of 8% on component B' after XXX number of average hours or miles, is this an engineering failure??' the responses you would get would be categorically different.
But you don't do that, because you have NO idea what failure rates are on the stuff you complain about. Example:
Ohhhhh really? What engines, specifically, and what is the actual failure rate? If you actually have these numbers I'll be shocked, but we'd have something to talk about.
If you don't know the difference between a design problem that kills 350 people and a design 'problem' that costs the owner of a 15 year old truck $2,000 9 years and 150,000 miles after the warranty expired... I guess. Wow. We cleared the shark by an even higher margin than I thought.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Car Brands With the Most Problems
https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/car-bra...
Note that with my new (June 2021) GMC Terrain, the only real problem that I've had is with the on-board navigation system (just like it was noted in the item above as being where most of the issues are appearing). It has stopped working a least a half-dozen times over the past year but of course, when I take it to the dealer, it's always working. They've replaced the data chip that has the maps, but it's not specifically the navigator that's shutting down, it's everything thing that connects to the panel where the chip is inserted, including the auxiliary audio connection (for my iPod), the iPhone connection for Apple CarPlay as well as the Bluetooth iPhone connection. When it's acting up, none of these things work. The radio works and no other electronics seem to be effected, but every associated with the navigator and connecting external devices, they stop working. In the first couple of months, it was happening quite often, however its been at least four or five months now since the last incident so maybe the last time the dealer had it, they did move something or tighten something that fixed the problem.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
OEMs do closely guard their data streams and warranty databases to avoid misuse but don't doubt its accuracy for modern vehicles and equipment. Most vehicles stateside were self-reporting failures by the mid-Y2ks, and many were even actively reporting location and live data otherwise. They've built various profitable services around it like updating 3rd party GPS maps, theft/repo recovery, rental monitoring, predictive maintenance (swap parts before failure to avoid downtime), etc, and engineers find all manner of development uses.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
You should see the aero engine issues.
We have been waiting 3 years now for P&W to redesign the engine bleed duct system to get rid of the acoustic harmonic which was causing disck failures.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I remember not too long ago one of the recip aircraft engine manufactures had a huge problem with failed lifters, from out of house manufacturing outfits. I have searched for that article and is now nowhere to be found. Personally I have never been impressed with those small aircraft engines, especially the construction methods.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It's to do with the swap over between the high pressure bleed and low pressure. There are operational procedure changes to protect against it.
I am positioning today and just on the phone. When I get near a computer I will do the subject more justic from a pilots point of view. There will be others in the forum who can do the engineering of the problem more justice.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The lp compressor rotor was found to be the common failure point due cracking.
The FAA required frequent boroscope inspections after an initial grounding inspection.
It started just after a FADEC software update in 2019.
Crews had to manually limit the max N1 during climb from memory to 93% by taking the Auto throttle out. You could reengage it during the cruise but most of us didn't because if you hit some sink the AT would then power up to over 93% and then the engines would require an inspection which took 36 hours because it had to be left to cool otherwise you would melt the borescope and then the inspection done and paper work. So we just left it out and set a N1% and left it there.
There is something going on with the bleed duct system. If you have ever heard one after start it makes a howling noise after the APU is turned off and the engines take over the bleed power. While there is no load it uses the lp port off the LP compressor and when load comes on at low power settings it needs the HP port. As it swaps valves there is a resonance generated. It does this in flight as well when you power up configuring to land. It is extremely distinctive. IN fact some pilots use it to let the family know they will be home in the next 40 mins. They power up and down a couple of times, while flying near their houses.
Medium term solution was to up date the FADEC software with the new limitations which reduces the climb thrust and now we can keep the AT in.
Long term is they are going to mod the bleed system and then update the FADEC again after that.
There is something else going on with the rear turbine seals at the moment and deltaP over them at high altitude and low thrust settings leading to the premature failure and high oil consumption. We deal with that by starting a slow decent early so it keeps some power on until we get to lower levels and higher static pressure.
Its a good engine from a pilots POV but its definitely different to a none geared fan. You almost have to manage it like a turboprop engine. I suspect some of the issues are related to long time Jet pilots doing stuff that was deemed good practise on a old school jet engines and its not the way the engine was designed to be operated.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Terrifying Video Shows Plane's Emergency Landing On Highway As Cars Whiz Past
A novice pilot was forced to use a North Carolina highway as a runway after his plane's engine shut down.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plane-lands-highway...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Highways were the defacto option with engine failures. You just have so many of them in certain areas. And they are long wide and straight unlike other countries.
The traffic is going at the right speed to boot for most light aircraft landing.
There is double figures worth of highway landings after engine failures in the USA per year. It just this one was caught on video.
The lycoming o engine aero engine series is relevant to this thread. It was designed in 1955 and no real changes to it since and its still in production getting fitted to new aircraft. Twin magnetos for the sparkplugs. Survives abrupt cooling and students abusing it in the circuit. Not very efficient though.
They have to be overhauled every 1500/12 years hours operating though. Think the official time is less than 1500 but you can get an extension after certain checks.
I might add I never had an off runway engine failure in my 1100 hours of piston flying. Cancelled many flights with dodgy mags. Turbine engines are so much more reliable.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://www.geaviation.com/press-release/cf6-engin...
The first scheduled inspection overhaul is at 18,000 hours.
Meanwhile, check out this table for the R-4360 in a fleet of C97 aircraft. It shows in 1965 that only 12% of engines didn't have failures within their overhaul period.
You're doing well if you get to 1500 hours between overhaul.
http://www.enginehistory.org/Piston/P&W/R-4360...
So turbine engines require far fewer overhauls. Also, a turbine engine can do the work of 3+ of the largest recip engines which improves economy even more.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Airlines aren't in it for charity. If piston engines were more cost efficient, that's what they'd be using.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Remember the theory stuff we had to learn about them..
The Lycoming o-235 was what I spent most of my uneventful time on. And we regularly used use extensions on them. They were needing a 50hour service every 7-10 days at the school I was instructing at even in winter in the north of Scotland Inverness.
Got loads of time on the Garrett tp331. Its pretty bullet proof.
Never flown the cf6 but you never hear anything about it.
Turbines are just so much less work to start and manage. The Fedec engines are much less than the old ones which were massively easier than piston.
And I don't place much value on flight hours. These days I pick up 8 hours in one day with 2 flights. Rotary pilots 8 hours is 16 plus approaches and landings and lord only knows about thermal cycles which is in my opinion is what kills aero engines along with miss handling. Which is another thing which helps with modern engines the pilot doesn't actually control it. They submit Thier wishes to the fadec. And it will sort it out for you. Old engines you could over temp them, shock cool them, over boost in a movement of one lever.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
You do realize that if this was true (it isn't.. but I digress) and you did it yourself you could make hundreds of millions of dollars on this product
What's stopping you?
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propfan
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The fuel savings are utterly collosal. Which was the main driver behind the MAX being developed in such a screwed up way.
As an example of real life fuel burns.
In cruise with a full load landing at max landing weight cruising at mach 0.78 we will burn 1800kg/hr. if we go economic mode around europe we can get 1600kg an hour with a full load in the back MAch .72 which is very near what we used to burn on the Q400 with 70 pax in the back at 1000kg/hr but with double the number of pax and much faster. The ATR might be an ugly uncomfortable, slow pain in the bum to everyone else, but it burns 600 kg/hr.
A 737 500 (which is nearer the same weight and capacity than a NG) doing the same thing approximate same weight will burn 2800 kg/hr. This is taken from the real life at work.
Some of that will be better aerodynamics because the neo and max don't get that marked a difference. But they still get a huge decrease in fuel burn but I don't have any real life knowledge that I have seen or experienced.
I do have real life experience a bit as ground crew with DC3's which were used for pollution control in Scotland. The R-2000 Twin Wasp engines were labour intensive from every level. You had 120 seconds after shut down to get 4 oil trays in otherwise it would sigh and dump its life fluids all over the apron and you would spend the next 3 hours scrubbing the concrete to decontaminate it. Pilot wise required a musician level of talent to adjust a power setting both in precision and timing. Flew it once but never landed it. And refueling it was a colossal pain , one of us used to have to go sit on the wing and hold the fuel gun in the hole. Do one wing then go do the other. Which may have just been a feature of that particular aircraft. And it uses utterly colossal amounts of petrol. From memory it took 3000 ltrs of petrol. Which gave it a range of 1300 nm in optimum conditions. low level it used to burn that in 2 hours spraying.
Just for fun when I started flying it I worked out the fuel burn per seat between the a220 and my old Merc E class 3ltr which I was getting 5.3 ltrs per 100km out of on long runs at 90 km/hr. It was getting very close km travelled per seat fuel burn. All previous types it was double at least the fuel per km per seat on previous types.
They want to add variable pitch fan blades to the next generation, but I suspect I will be in a box before they come along.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
This was supposed to be my weekend project but apparently it's illegal to buy a camshaft bearing tool in California and I messed up the first bearing with my homemade tool.
Anyways first pic is my dead 6.2 block. Second pick is updated 6.5 block with smaller boots on the 3 center main caps.
Do note that the first engine was removed from service due to head gasket failure and that these cracks did not cause issues when running.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Please explain...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov/
I've checked several online sources where camshaft bearing tools are sold and a couple of them mention a 'Prop 65 warning' and the best that I can see is that they might contain material which could cause cancer, but nowhere did I find anything that indicated that you couldn't actually buy one of these tool sets, just that you should be careful. BTW, they also warn you that you should wear safety glasses and avoid loose fitting close or open sandals when using the tool.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
You don't take prop 65 warnings seriously, do you? They have to put the sticker on everything because it's impossible to prove that nothing causes cancer.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I would say it's not so much Prop 65 that's the problem as much as it is that some companies are simply ignoring it. It's just that Amazon has taken it upon itself to comply.
And for the record, Prop 65 was just that, a proposition which was voted on by the people of California. In fact, in 1986, the Prop 65 initiative passed with 67% of the vote. And before you ask, NO, I did NOT vote for Prop 65. The reason was because this was on the ballot during the time when I had been transferred back to Michigan, which spanned the period from January 1986 until July 1987.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John, prop 65 is ever evolving and recently a lot of changes have been made.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
And thank you JohnRBaker, that is what I meant. Since the tapped hole is smaller it essentially added more material to that area, and also since the torque is lower on the smaller bolt there is less strain from that.
That engine block is typical of many, too many corners cut in the design phase. That almost looks like it was never tested, it would have shown up during durability testing. It sort of proves they didn't do the correct things during the testing phase, too much dependence on FEA and not the real world.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
That engine first came to market in 1982. FEA did not exist, and the 'real' engineers you worship are the ones who put it out. So.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
It's a really good engine design if you have the right expectations of it. They're not the best engines for rebuilding because die catastrophically.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Yes, but the photos are almost identical so a copy, at worst, and obviously shippable to California.
In any case, Prop 65 is THE "get of out lawsuit free" card for any product with a listed chemical. Given that you all are ostensibly business friendly, I'm not sure why you think Prop 65 is a bad idea. If I were a manufacturer, for a measly upfront investment of printing a Prop 65 warning, I indemnify myself from any lawsuit claiming harm from exposure to a listed chemical in my product; it's a great bargain for manufacturers and retailers. Indemnification from exposure lawsuits for over 900 chemicals; whoot!
Indeed, I would think even if you didn't think you needed the warning on your product, you should go ahead and put it on the end-product and protect yourself from any subcontractor twiddling their product chemistry without telling you.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Uh.. not only does Prop 65 not indemnify a manufacturer from hazardous exposure lawsuits, it also creates an ecosystem of lawsuits specifically related to compliance with the idiotic measure itself. It's the rare law that is actually bad for everyone.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Engine designs that have problems
That's a fermented capsicum pubescens sauce.
I'll ship some ir anybody is interested.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Did you make it from the Pubes or the Fruit?
It better come with ingredients that are known to the State of California to cause cancer.
D'oh, I should have done my own research before ingesting all that Sriracha. They warned me!
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Using most of the normal anti seize compounds will not help, the heat can solidify some of them, and make it worse. There have been a lot of expensive repairs needed for something as simple as changing spark plugs.
In this throw away auto engine culture I'm surprised the spark plugs aren't just pressed in.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Good quality spark plugs do have a seize resistant coating on them.
Are you having issues with spark plugs seizing? I stripped one out on my very first engine. I've never had a problem since.
There are lots of things people may be doing to cause your experience. Spark plugs are seated plus 1/2 turn. This sets the crush in the washer. Do not use a torque wrench to install new plugs. If you're reusing the plugs, do not use the angle method as the washer is already crushed and you will strip the threads.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I will grant that I have not owned, and will not ever own, a Ford 5.4 3-valve. (A friend of mine has one that belongs in a junkyard. He doesn't dare change the spark plugs, but there's so much else wrong with the truck, including terminal rust, that he's just driving it until it drops.)
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I have never had an issue either or with glow plugs.
I have always loosened them off when the engine is hot then torqued the new ones up when it's cold on my own cars.
I don't think I have used anything other than NGK which could also be a factor.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Most I've dealt with are similar; although in the case of my Mother's Toyota Rav4 you had to take off the air box to get to at least one of the plugs which is simple but adds several minutes to an otherwise five minute job. Similarly, my previous "Daily Driver" (Mazdaspeed 3) had a top mounted intercooler that had to be removed to access the plug wells. In both cases the manufacturer specifically recommends high mileage (75k mi for the MS3) rated plugs, presumably for that reason. Prior to working on either of those vehicles I always bought the cheapest NGK plugs available and simply expected to change them much more frequently; I don't know if I've altered that opinion for my Miata as it has no obstructions to replacing the plugs.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Engine designs that have problems
( LionelHutz (Electrical)
20 Jul 22 15:14
Why is anyone responding to this stupidity anymore. All this thread consists of is one stupid claim after another seeming posted on purpose to cause a reaction.)
Wow !
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Aftercooler is the yellow bit in the middle, you can see an intake tube bottom left and the rest is exhaust manifold. These engines run 1200°F exhaust temps continuously.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
In his mind you've 'insulted' him personally to the level where he will just ignore you. He does the same to me after many responses to his threads questioning the logic involved.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
3500, did they ever work out the valve issues they had some years ago? The 3600's had some issues as well.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
To be fair, ~90% of this subforum is speculation based on popular media reports which are usually incorrect due to ignorance and/or sensationalism. Poke a bit of fun and don't take any of it too seriously.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Most everything I post in this thread is of bad experiences of end users, with some of them backed up by lawsuit's.
I'm curious what sort of issues are the 3500's and 3600's experiencing nowadays? They were having problems many years ago.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The difference is, in threads based on media reporting, generally the group does a fair job of recognizing that we're dealing with speculation, and generally the group also responds to new information in a rational way.
These threads involve no information at all, nor data of any kind. OP just makes stuff up basically and expects us all to agree with him.
Disagree with him enough, and ask enough questions about where he's getting his information from, and you'll get added to his personal 'ignore' list, as I have.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
I have no ignore list.
My posts here are similar to others, it is to call attention to problems not try to solve them all.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
RE: Engine designs that have problems
Honda is well known for the VTC actuator failure, that in the 4th generation didn't have a fix.
Here is some data, https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10127348...
Data for Ford
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10199482...
I suppose there is plenty of data for the various engines and problems I have mentioned in the previous posts.
BMW data
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10201140...
https://www.classaction.org/media/urena-v-bmw-of-n...
The numbers for how many affected units in all the various cases would be next to impossible to discover. If they are not serviced at a dealer shop, then the numbers that the manufactures have would not be
very accurate.
Data for Hyundai
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hyundai-recall/...
Is this all the sort of data you want? Or is it dealer and manufacture proprietary data you are looking for?
Like I have said the data is out there just look.
RE: Engine designs that have problems
The burden of proof for your claims is on you, not the rest of us.