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And how much is this going to cost...

And how much is this going to cost...

And how much is this going to cost...

(OP)
I've worked for companies that have changed their names and trust me, it's not cheap. And yet, here we have 'Papa John's' pizza changing their name to 'Papa johns' pizza. This could be the most expensive apostrophe in history:

Papa John’s is changing its name — sort of

https://fox2now.com/news/national/papa-johns-is-ch...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Up here (in Canada) we had Eaton's in Ontario (English Canada) which had trouble be accommodated in Quebec Canada (French don't like the apostrophe). I think they called themselves "Eatons" and hoped no-one noticed ...

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

That's going to take a lot of "white out" to cover all those apostrophes, or is it apostrophe's?

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

JohnRBaker,

I am a graduate of what is now Ryerson University. This was named after Egerton Ryerson. Ryerson is responsible for setting up much of the education system of what was then Upper Canada, now Ontario, Canada. He is a logical person to name a university after. Unfortunately, he is also being held responsible for the Indian residential school system. He now is evil, and they are preparing to rename the university.

I am kind of pissed off about this. Ryerson failed to rise above contemporary prejudices of his time. He actually learned to speak Ojibway, and gotten along with them. Much of the problem with the residential schools seems to have been later administrators. No famous people of the past were perfect, and we have to stop teaching history as melodrama.

--
JHG

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote (drawoh)

we have to stop teaching history as melodrama.

I like that a lot. I might use that line in the future.

- Andrew

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

(OP)
But to many people, history IS melodrama, or at least they feel that it is because that's how it has always been presented to the masses from time in memorial. Just look at the great playwrights over the centuries, many of them chose to present historical events as plots for their plays. Besides, this was when the population was still mostly illiterate and therefore the stage provided a substitute for education, enlightening the public about events both historical and more recent. Just look at Shakespeare, and while he obviously took great literary license, he also brought the perspective of historical events to the people who witnessed his plays.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

The irony here is that PJ’s board pushed out Papa John himself on the basis that he accidentally cost the company a lot of money…

As a history buff I despise revisionist history and will freely admit it’s been going on as long as man has been sharing history. That said, the disturbing bit about the latest crop is the fact that folks believe it despite the illogical absurdity of much of it.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Not sure about Ryerson - he may very well have been the best person on the planet. However, let me point over to a symbol of luck and prosperity used for thousands of years and still in use outside of the Western nations, the humble swastika, which moved from a revered decoration to symbol non-grata through no fault of its own. I suspect that the Ryerson name of the school, not Ryerson himself, and the school system having been corrupted, is the driving reason for the change.

Down here, south of the border, the history as taught in grade school has always been closer to fairy tale than truth.

Tea got tossed in the harbor because the import company got its taxes slashed to keep it solvent as a favor from the Crown, undercutting the thriving industry of black market imports that did well when British tea carried a high tax and were then going to be pushed out of business. The Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to any Union states or to any cities or regions in the South controlled by Union forces, forces which kept slave labor in place to load and unload ships in the captured Southern ports while the war progressed. The Proclamation looks to me like one of those deals to undercut the opposition production as the Union had no ability to force the Confederacy to free anyone.

Are these in the grade school history books?

Or that the 3/5ths compromise for slaves didn't mean that anyone valued slaves at 3/5ths of a person - the North wanted them to count for nothing and the South wanted them fully counted because this was only about setting the number of representatives. As a practical matter, while the South wanted slaves counted fully for representatives, they wanted to steal all possible votes from them, along with the majority of the wealth of their labor.

The one that really gets me is the Confederate Flag business - a current flag used in the 1950s and later as a raised middle finger to civil rights agitators but not by the Confederacy itself, outside being a battle flag for the Army of Tennessee.

They definitely skip that Americans illegally immigrated to northern Mexico, where their pro-slavery activities weren't so appreciated and then stole the land from Mexico to create Texas, making that "Alamo" story more like bank robbers dying in a shootout at a bank vault. I love this description "Mexican authorities blamed much of the Texian unrest on American immigrants, most of whom had entered illegally and made little effort to adapt to the Mexican culture and who continued to hold people in slavery when slavery had been abolished in Mexico." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo No surprise then that after the war ended the Texans sort of failed to mention that slavery had been abolished to the mass of the slaves.

The ones crying loudest over "rewriting history" are those who did the re-writing in the first place, or at least the ones who were tolerant and accepting of that rosy depiction, while leaving out all the unpleasant parts.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

You're toying with rewriting a little bit history yourself. smile Slavery was eliminated in Hispanic America with the Mexican revolution in 1811. Slavery was prohibited in Mexico and the rest of S America, so I dont think it played a great part in the reasons for the Texan revolt against Mexico. There was already significant reason caused by religious and cultural strife. Non-Catholics could not practice Protestant religions and were prohibited from owning land, or anything really, including cattle and slaves, nor were they allowed to marry, pass on inheritances, etc. in Mexico, Since owning both land and slaves was illegal in Mexico (outside the legally established Stephan F Austin Colony) for any non Catholic, the sugar cane, tobacco and cotton farming and processing industries could not have developed into an importance sufficient to cause the revolution prior to 1836. The total population (surely not counting native peoples) was only around 30,000 persons. Those crops and slavery both took root in Texas after independence was established in 1836 and became economically important at a much later date, mid 40s to late 50's. only beginning after independence, during the 9yr time of the Republic of Texas, 1836-1845, (pop 102K +30K slaves, when Texas became part of the Union. It later give up a great portion of its non-slave-holding territory, extending to Utah-Wyoming) in The 1850 compromise, after which the remaining territory legally become slave-owning land.

1811-1836 there was no entering illegally virtually anywhere in the world. Free movement between most countries was common and bureaucratically unhindered. The passport and immigration systems were established around the turn of the 20th century WW1. The current system did not develop until 1920s. (How else do you think all those Irish, Chinese and Italian ... immigrants got here during the 1800s? smile They didn't even bring birth certificates with them, just signing the port entry log.)

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Facebook is now Meta.
Trying to hide from their reputation for sucking all the grey matter out of Gen Z's brains.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote:

The current system did not develop until 1920s. (How else do you think all those Irish, Chinese and Italian ... immigrants got here during the 1800s?
Once the railroads were mostly done, the US was done with the Chinese in 1882 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Ac...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

This reminds me of the old joke:
Donate millions of dollars to charity, and they call you ‘Joe the philanthropist;’
Save a thousand lives, and they call you ‘Joe the saviour;’
...;
but, <beep> one little <beep>, and they call you ‘Joe the <beeper>.’

Ryerson did a incredible job in creating the technical school, prior to it being renamed a university. Gord Gilbert, a former graduate was one of the top 3 Architects, I’ve ever encountered. He was world class, and met him while doing the Cornwall Centre.

Ryerson was also involved is some of the worst stuff that came out of Canada.

He was not alone. Included on that list is our first Prime Minister, John A. MacDonald. MacDonald who showed his bias to aboriginals prior to politics when he was a lawyer for the CPR. Ryerson ‘screwed up’ and will be remembered 'forever' for his actions.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Not toying, apparently incomplete - Texas was formed to force the adoption of slavery in the region. What other tensions there were, slavery was the tipping point - the promise of wealth by exploitation of forced labor. Freedom at the point of a gun - what Americans claim they are against. Those other details do not endear Texans or their history at all. Seems like if they didn't want to follow the laws of the land they should have left the country; at least that seems to be their current "rule."

Whether there was a bureaucratic control of entry, the details seem right - that the Americans moved into Mexican held territory with no interest in becoming Mexican or accepting Mexican laws. Which is sort of ironic considering that the outspoken Texans make the same complaint about the Latin Americans coming here.

Looking at the way that congressional districts are drawn around Dallas to avoid giving those people Texans forced into the state representation it seems like they continue to embrace the origin of the state. I think the children there should be told why.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote:

Americans moved into Mexican held territory with no interest in becoming Mexican or accepting Mexican laws. Which is sort of ironic considering that the outspoken Texans make the same complaint about the Latin Americans coming here.

Perhaps that's precisely why Texans object; they fear a Latino takeover. Given the higher birthrates, they probably will have to deal with that eventuality.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote:

Down here, south of the border, the history as taught in grade school has always been closer to fairy tale than truth.

Many events and the people in them are simplified to educate or protect children when in reality life is rarely simple nor events clear-cut in terms of right and wrong. Historically, the US education system (and most every other) has taken the approach that children learn the basics of a subject then as they get older detail is added, hence the many jokes that American history courses are Columbus, Squanto, Civil War, WW2, repeat. Each repeat adds detail. Science and every other subject is taught much the same bc its a logical approach that has worked well. Personally I have no issues with this approach even if it gives small children a rosy picture of history until they get older. Ultimately they lack the critical thinking ability necessary to form their own opinions on complex matters. If that rosy picture inspires a bit of patriotism or pride as well then great, it benefits us all and descendants of early American figures aren't likely benefitting centuries later. OTOH, providing a complete, collegiate-level course in elementary school on any given matter OTOH is harmful to both students and society, as well as nearly impossible to teach.

Analyze anybody's life or a major event and you will see plenty of good and plenty of bad, thankfully most folks tip the balance toward good over their lifetime. Perspective is what is important and realizing that not everybody shares the same. Expecting everybody to reach the same conclusion about a particular event, person, word, or symbol regardless of what is said or read is probably the most ignorant attitude someone could have, yet that has become amazingly pervasive today with folks decrying others as evil for not being on the "right side of history." I know southerners of all colors who proudly display the Confederate Flag as a symbol of freedom and southern pride, not racism. I know many folks who prefer the terms Black, American Indian, or queer and are genuinely offended by the terms African American, Native American, or gay. To each their own opinions, but trying to rewrite history by spewing bs vilifying others under the pretense that "everybody agrees" is nonsense.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

(OP)
If those 'Latinos', with the higher birthrates, are American citizens, how will this be something "...they probably will have to deal with that eventuality."?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

The process of building on knowledge is logical. Nothing wrong there. But shouldn't it be a more balanced approach? A bit of bad with the good. A little but of truth with the lies? Or rather a bit of bad truth with the good truth, if you prefer. It was kind of traumatic for me to eventually find out that Santa wasn't what I thought at all. If Mom and Dad's gifts were really cool and Santa just left a small, token present under the tree, the trauma factor goes way down. Equal rights for all. Kinda the first one. The South was not built on the back of slaves, whom were actually treated quite well. (My 8th grade history teacher actually said that.) Are you kidding me? This is the iron Buffalo. Sitting Bull wasn't smarter than Custer. The US bought Panama from Colombia. We never imprisoned thousands of "real" Americans of Japanese heritage. The nuclear bombing of Japan avoided a million American deaths. The Palistinians will adjust. Korea and Vietnam was fighting against World domination of Commies. US troops never entered Cambodia. The Shaw of Iran was a great guy. Smoking was not, cough, harmful. You don't need seat belts on school buses. Corvairs didn't have a safety deficiency. Weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq. Afganistan. Guantanamo is legal. Jan 6 was a tourist rumble. WTF. I mean really, a bit one sided, is it not? The only thing they got right was missiles in Cuba and Hitler/Stallin, but you'd hardly know that looking around today. No wonder there's a problem with truth. It so rarely gets told, it hardly exists. If there is no truth, I guess there is no need to teach it.

They are dealing with "the Latino problem" already. That's what the Gerymandering and "Texas Vote security Act" are all about.

My University of Texas at Arlington sports teams were "The Rebels" and we really had a "Stars and Bars" flag. Hell, the band only played Yellow Rose of Tx and Dixie. I think they tried "Up Up and Away" one time, but the cannon missfired and took down the balloon. All us real suth'ners know what the Stars and Bars mean. Most of us haven't used public facilities of any kind since 1964, Including busses. They take you to a school 20miles away. We trashed all that in 1970 and changed the Stars and Bars to the Mavricks. The football team still lost every game, but the band played way better music when the rythem and blues section felt empowered. Then we burned our draft cards. The USA countered with Kent State. The truth was finally told and we got rid of Nixon, but not before Mỹ Lai. That might have been the last time it happened. The truth I mean. I remind you that the full release of the Warren Commission Report has yet to come out. https://www.history.com/news/final-jfk-files-assas... There are obviously still some live bombshells in that one. CIA = caught in action???

I hear that Oklahoma is now reverting back to Indian Territory? What's up with that? It's got to get squashed somehow.

I should make this relevant to the topic, so it doesn't get canned.
With all the bad publicity that might befall should any of the above actually come to widespread public knowledge, should the United States of America change its name to the Meta Stases of America?

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Great summary... 1503

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Yeah, a short one. I'm on my tablet typing with one finger, so I couldn't go into detail. I'm stilling adding a little bit to it.

Can we get rid of this racist emo indian


RE: And how much is this going to cost...

dik,

Egerton Ryerson and Sir John A. MacDonald were out to civilise the Indians. As they did this, did our ancestors scream at them that they were not respecting Indian culture, and that we were going to abuse Indian children? There is collective responsibility here. When we drop all of this on Ryerson and MacDonald, we imply that our ancestors had nothing to do with it. As far as I can tell, quite a bit of my family was over here in the mid-nineteenth century. Maybe yours came over later!

During some of the discussions about Ryerson, it has been brought up that Mohawk chief Joseph Brant, and important figure in early Upper Canada history, owned slaves.

I am a history buff. As far as I can tell, there was an understanding back then that ethics were a product of higher civilization, and beyond the capacity of barbarians and savages.

--
JHG

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

One thing that stands out in the dealings with native populations by the USA was that ethics was never on the table - every single agreement that ever was made was voided by the "higher" civilization, right up until now, whenever more than a couple of dollars was to be made by breaking it. I expect the same has been true in Canada.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Their goal was to control the aboriginals... not, civilise them.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote:

The process of building on knowledge is logical. Nothing wrong there. But shouldn't it be a more balanced approach? A bit of bad with the good. A little but of truth with the lies? Or rather a bit of bad truth with the good truth, if you prefer.

Interesting comment given the diatribe posted. I would encourage you to read a couple K-12 history texts from the US system then others from a totalitarian state like China or N Korea for perspective, ours are far from propaganda.

JMO but I feel fortunate to have had a well-balanced education. K-12 I never caught a whiff of any teacher's personal politics or opinions, unlike at the state college where quite a few professors openly campaigned in class and were nasty to students who spoke out against it - sadly normal today. We learned plenty of bad early - religious and other persecution driving colonists out of Europe, disappearing early settlements, slavery, Indian Wars, the Holocaust (and deniers), Civil and WW2 losses, suffrage, civil rights, etc. About the only "rosy" things discussed involved overcoming adversity and prospering, which IME is lost on many kids due to lack of life perspective.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

You listed the obstacles that were overcome on the way to the glorious present - what you missed was the other things - like how the USA, knowing Jews were being rounded up and disappeared in Europe turned Jewish refugees away from our ports because the USA was just about as close in beliefs about Jews as the Nazis were.

Or this: https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-his...

For those looking at historical re-enactment to better understand, they need to round up all the high school students, with just the clothes they are wearing, from those states, particularly Florida, and march them to Oklahoma, only allowing them the food and water they can find along the path. Anyone slows, soldiers beat them.

Instead is taught the fond remembrance of Battle of Little Big Horn where Custer lost - anyone know that Custer was only a General because of a series of quick field promotions during the American Civil War? Yup - right from "freeing slaves" to genocidal murdering of native Americans in one short career. The lesson learned? Genocidal murder needed better generals.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

history is too complicated and (generally) our attention spans are too short ...

Has anyone seen the memorial for the (US) Civil war in Boston ? The Robert Gould Shaw and the 54th Regiment Memorial.
Something that seriously needs to be re-written ... not forgotten, just re-issued.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote:

You listed the obstacles that were overcome on the way to the glorious present - what you missed was the other things - like how the USA, knowing Jews were being rounded up and disappeared in Europe turned Jewish refugees away from our ports because...

This example has the same issue that most every other mentioned in this thread has, which is why I've been avoiding them - a serious omission of context. US immigration policy was very similar to most every other country's throughout the depression, countries were struggling to feed and employ their own citizens and thus had long established isolationist policies. Couple that with many years of propaganda coming out of Germany prior to the Nazi takeover and its readily apparent that the US isn't the monstrosity some folks would have us believe.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

People believe the propaganda that, at heart, they would write themselves. And not teaching that lesson isn't a matter of "how could they have known" and so can be avoided, it's recognizing how it gets generated and used and not blaming the Nazis for producing it, but blaming the Americans for wanting to believe in spite of people fleeing for their lives in crowded ships begging for help.

A more recent event - lying about WMD in Iraq.

(spelling fixed; thanks)

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

3DDave,

I take you mean WMD.

We can write books and articles stating that WMDs in Iraq were a flat out lie. Almost all the perpetrators are still with us, and available to be embarrassed.

--
JHG

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

I didnt miss that one. It's there. "Weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq."
But I did forget the "Oh crap. No terrorists there". Wedding parties gone wrong hit parade.

Quite correct. The USA isn't as bad as some others. Actually many others. Spain had every native they could find slaving in the silver mines in Bolivia. Potosi had a larger population than London during peak mine production.

The atrocities of Belgium in the Congo were almost as bad as the holocoust and the home front Belgians knew NOTHING about it at all. How many Russians died at the hands of Stallin.... and Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge. Rwanda. Japan's rampage in China. Not to mention Romes sacking of Carthage and Spains eviction of all non Catholics. England's mess in Ireland, Pakistan, India. France in Algeria. India/Pakistan-Pakistan/India. Serbia/Bosnia. Turkey/Armenia. Virtually everybody GUILTY. Yes, its a freeking long list.

But I firmly believe that justifying one's own wrongs by saying its not any worse than what's going on elsewhere is no saving grace. USA points to China's political prisoners, or the Uighurs, they point to Guantanamo where, rather conveniently, the Constitution has no bearing and nobody has any human rights at all. 20 years, no hearing before any judge at all. Who's in charge there? Where does that get you?

Australians. Pure as driven snow. Nobody gets a free pass.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

"Australians. Pure as driven snow." well, thank you for that ! yes, I do get the sarcasm, but I'll take the words at face value.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

I think most Australians, would...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote:

People believe the propaganda that, at heart, they would write themselves. And not teaching that lesson isn't a matter of "how could they have known" and so can be avoided, it's recognizing how it gets generated and used and not blaming the Nazis for producing it, but blaming the Americans for wanting to believe in spite of people fleeing for their lives in crowded ships begging for help.

A more recent event - lying about WMD in Iraq.

Disagree. Much as I am an advocate for minimal govt regulation, sensationalist media allowed to run rampant long term inevitably leads to the general population's loss of faith in its honesty, which inadvertently allows terrible things to happen and bad people to grab power. Without the free German media's sensationalism throughout the 1920s-30s, the Nazis would've had a much more difficult time taking over the country and the world wouldn't have looked upon those victimized as crying wolf.

The sad reality is that the US' corporate media has us well down that same, dangerous path today. They've gotten so bad at lying that arguments over what is/isnt "fake news" have become popular. OTOH, some folks do still believe in Santa and deny WMDs were/are in Iraq.

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

In a speech before the World Affairs Council of Charlotte, NC, on April 7, 2006, President Bush stated that he "fully understood that the intelligence was wrong, and [he was] just as disappointed as everybody else" when U.S. troops failed to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/apr/6/20...

“We’ve got a plan to help rebuild Iraq. … By the way, every war plan or every plan is fine, until it meets the enemy. But you’ve got to adjust,” he said.

Who would listen to that guy anyway? "Disappointed" doesn't cover it. He might as well have said "shucks" or "darn it."

That "fake news" problem goes way back - t0 2016. I wonder what happened in 2016:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-frequency-...

RE: And how much is this going to cost...

Quote (media allowed to run rampant long term inevitably leads to the general population's loss of faith in its honesty)


Unfortunately the government has shown itself to dishonest, and crooked. There's a real reason for people losing faith in it.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

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