Valve spring oil cooler? Valve spring oil cooler? jean genibrel (Automotive) (OP) 29 Jul 21 21:21 I would like to know if anyone out there knows how to plumb a valve spring oil cooler. Are they gravity activated, do they need a pump like for gearboxes and diffs? Thank you RE: Valve spring oil cooler? BrianPetersen (Mechanical) 29 Jul 21 21:37 Explain to the rest of us, what this is for. No engine that I have ever had anything to do with, has such a thing, or even a possibility of such a thing. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? jean genibrel (Automotive) (OP) 29 Jul 21 21:55 I am stumped also. Earl's Mocal and SETRAB all seel "valve spring oil coolers". Comp did not have an answer either. I have been in racing and performance for over 40 years and I too have never heard of such a thing. The idea may not be so bad when one considers that the valve springs on a race engine can get red hot and they eventually will need replacing. I would guess that when the springs get super hot they lose some of their tension and can cause power loss. There, it seems that cooler oil would be beneficial for performance and longevity. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? BrianPetersen (Mechanical) 29 Jul 21 22:09 What engine is this for? RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 29 Jul 21 22:24 Try "Valve Spring Oiler" for more information. It's additional oil flow directed at the springs for cooling in engines that operate at extended high speed. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? jean genibrel (Automotive) (OP) 29 Jul 21 23:21 To Brian Peterson Any endurance race engine. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? Lou Scannon (Automotive) 29 Jul 21 23:28 I'd be interested to see any kind of conventional valve spring functioning as intended while at a "red hot" temperature. That said, I'm sure a little bit of extra cooling wouldn't go amiss for a highly stressed valve spring operating near its limit for an extended period. Whether or not the power cost of pumping extra oil flow and increased heat rejection allows a net gain in whatever limiting factor you are trying to address needs to be assessed at the system level. "Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz RE: Valve spring oil cooler? RodRico (Automotive) 30 Jul 21 01:57 I was going to mention that Mopar and KE Performance sell valve covers (or devices that sit under the cover) with integrated valve spring oilers that direct a spray onto each individual spring. I didn't because a spray device like that needs pressure, and folks should be very careful about tapping into the oil pressure of their engines unless they know what they're doing (and someone asking how to plumb one probably doesn't). These guys have a 3D model and images of the "spray" (really more of a jet): www.hardin-marine.com/p-12519-bb-chevy-valve-sprin... RE: Valve spring oil cooler? BrianPetersen (Mechanical) 30 Jul 21 02:21 "Any endurance race engine" To me, an endurance race engine is a DOHC 4 cylinder 16 valve with direct valve actuation via buckets that also serve as cam followers, with pressure lubrication supplied to the cam bearings which then splashes out in ample supply to the cam lobes and which also thoroughly soaks and rinses the entire valvetrain in oil. Not all valvetrain designs are starved for top end oil supply. Or cooling. So... what engine is this for. I suspect the real issue is that the top end is short on oil for lubrication, and the cooling is secondary. If the engine is also short on cooling, any cooler in the oil circuit anywhere (e.g. in a supplementary feed to the top end) should help...and it's just an oil cooler, nothing special. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 30 Jul 21 03:51 Think about a pushrod v8 in a high performance marine application. The type that are running 3/4" lift at 5000-6000 rpm for tens of minutes at a time. NASCAR would be a an even better candidate. Both of these are going to be dry sump engines with multi-stage pumps that can dedicate a state to bearing lube, piston cooling, valve spring cooling, etc... However, OP, there is no performance benefits to valve spring cooling. The extra oil flow required is actually a parasitic loss. You should only consider this if you're experiencing valve spring failures. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? enginesrus (Mechanical) 4 Aug 21 02:47 So you want more oil around the valve springs? Many ways to accomplish that. But you also need real good seals for the valve guides. I got some ideas but I need a small fortune to patent them before disclosing that info. Tugboat is correct. And if you are having spring failures it maybe either the materials or cam profile, as well as other parts of the valve train causing it, extra cooling may do nothing to fix the problem. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 4 Aug 21 03:39 It's not about pooling, these systems use nozzles to spray the spring. You need flow to remove heat. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? RodRico (Automotive) 7 Aug 21 14:46 Quote (enginesrus)I got some ideas but I need a small fortune to patent them before disclosing that infoI just filed a provisional as a micro-entity on my injection system for $75. I have to file a regular utility patent within a year which costs $755 insofar as there are 3 or less independent claims and 20 or less total claims and I don't have too much back and forth with the examiner. The hardest part is getting registered so you can file electronically. The costs go up after you have filed four patents as you're no longer a micro-entity. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? mc5w (Electrical) 8 Sep 21 04:18 I know that back in the 1970s there was a better designed 3rd party oil cooler for Volkswagen Beetles that would replace the stock oil cooler. It had a flange that bolted in place of the OEM oil cooler and 2 hoses that would go to a fin and tube heat exchanger that mounted in front of the cooling blower intake. It also had a means to hook up a real oil filter of the type that Ford used back then. According to How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive the stock oil cooler had a tendency to act as a trap for metal particles and when doing an overhaul you had to clean that out. The what was originally an aircraft engine was much more dependent on oil as a coolant than say a lawnmower or motorcycle engine. We were taught that part of what engine oil does is to cool at least some of the engine parts. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? jean genibrel (Automotive) (OP) 8 Sep 21 20:48 My query waS about VALVE SPRING OIL COOLERS. They are not for any specific engine or application like marine, aircraft racing, or other. The manufacturers could not answer my question which makes no sense since they list valve spring oil coolers on their data. Thanks for your responses, but let's let this one go. You can see "Valve Spring Oil Coolers" here: http://www.setrabusa.com/products/oilcoolers/power... RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 8 Sep 21 21:42 If you wanted a better answer, why did you withhold that piece of information? If you look at high performance high endurance engines they often have staged oil pumps. They may have 5 or 6 oil pumps all driven along one shaft. One or more for scavenging, one for bearing lube, one for piston cooling, etc... In such a case, the top end oiling can be independent from the rest of the engine. The drain back holes in the head would need to be plugged. With a closed loop oiling system for the top end you would now need a "valve spring oil cooler". RE: Valve spring oil cooler? jean genibrel (Automotive) (OP) 8 Sep 21 22:58 You are speaking of dry sump systems as used on most if not all endurance racing engines. I was inquiring about "valve spring" oil Coolers" PS: What information did I withhold?If you wanted a better answer, why did you withhold that piece of information? RE: Valve spring oil cooler? 3DDave (Aerospace) 8 Sep 21 23:20 If I had carefully read the original post I'd have asked - how do you think oil will be forced through a radiator/heat exchanger? Pretty obvious that it will require a pump. And I think that's what was misleading - no one could match the idea that that isn't obvious a pump is required to the question as asked. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 8 Sep 21 23:42 I used a picture of a dry sump pump because it shows an example of a pump with multiple pumping circuits. In your case, one would be dedicated to the valve spring cooling circuit. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? enginesrus (Mechanical) 28 Sep 21 05:27 So a quick search brought up nothing about valve spring coolers. I guess it would be too difficult to get small air conditioning units under a valve cover. Maybe hollow spring rod and run coolant through them? How about just going with air springs? RE: Valve spring oil cooler? SwinnyGG (Mechanical) 4 Oct 21 18:48 Quote (jean genibrel)I would like to know if anyone out there knows how to plumb a valve spring oil cooler. Are they gravity activated, do they need a pump like for gearboxes and diffs? After following your link, the answer becomes clear. Note that the series of Setrab coolers you have linked to are noted for use as 'Valve Spring' AND/OR 'Power Steering' coolers. Of all possible cooling loads you could create in an engine system by plumbing a separate cooling loop, valve spring cooling and power steering cooling are going to typically be by far the smallest cooling loads. Meaning they would require very small heat exchangers compared to, say, a transmission cooler. If you wanted to cool valve spring cooling oil separately from everything else, there is only one way that I can see it being possible; you'd have to have a separate dry sump pumping stage for the valve spring oiler supply, plumbed with the (tiny) heat exchanger in line between the pumping stage and the supply on the cylinder head(s). You can't separate the valve spring cooling oil from the rest of the stream, because once you spray it inside the valve cover, it's getting mixed with other sources (ie lubrication for flat tappet lifters or whatever else is in there) as it drains back to the sump. So cooling prior to spray is your only option. This is why the other guys are talking about dry sump pumps - because having a dry sump pump with a dedicated stage is the only way to provide cooled oil to the valve spring oilers and the valve spring oilers only. With all that said, even in the most demanding applications, I can't imagine the flow required to properly supply valve spring oilers for cooling is so gargantuan that you would dedicate an entire dry sump stage to it. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I don't see it. If I were building an engine and felt that spring oilers were necessary, I'd probably source that oil from a dry sump stage that is already supplying oil to other relatively low volume destinations - like piston skirt oilers, cam bearings, whatever. In short, I'm pretty sure Setrab calls these 'valve spring/power steering coolers' because the heat exchangers in that particular series are so small, that those little cooling loads are all people ever use them for. But the coolers themselves aren't 'special' in any way.. they are just a smaller version of the standard Setrab cooler you'd use to cool a transmission or a rear end or whatever. That fact is obvious from reading the catalog. They're like normal Setrab heat exchangers, just tiny. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 4 Oct 21 19:32 Quote (SwinnyGG)With all that said, even in the most demanding applications, I can't imagine the flow required to properly supply valve spring oilers for cooling is so gargantuan that you would dedicate an entire dry sump stage to it. The benefit of dry sump oiling is the variety of pressure circuits, not just more capacity. If valve spring cooling requires a higher pressure than piston cooling it starts to make sense to run separate stages, regardless of flow requirements. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? SwinnyGG (Mechanical) 4 Oct 21 20:25 Quote (TugboatEng)The benefit of dry sump oiling is the variety of pressure circuits, not just more capacity. If valve spring cooling requires a higher pressure than piston cooling it starts to make sense to run separate stages, regardless of flow requirements. I agree, that's one of the benefits of a dry sump system. What I was getting at is that unless I'm missing something (which, maybe I am) the demand for a valve spring cooling system would not be high pressure, meaning it would be easy to bleed it off somewhere else without adding the weight/cost/parasitic loss of a dedicated dry sump stage. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? gruntguru (Mechanical) 5 Oct 21 00:44 What's the goal here? - Extra oil flow to cool the valve springs? Arrange some squirters using the existing oil system. - Colder oil to the valve springs? A very small oil/air cooler added to the above squirter circuit. je suis charlie RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 5 Oct 21 01:21 As I said earlier, this would make sense on a system that doesn't have oil drain back holes from valve spring area. The valve lubrication would have it's own separate oil system thus the need for cooling. On marine slow speed diesels, the camshaft has it's own lubrication sump and pump. This is prevent contamination of the main sump from fuel leakage. For more conventional engines, I do believe nearly all of the blow-by into the crankcase comes up the valve guides. I know this to be true because our 2-stroke diesels with an air box between the combustion chamber and crankcase still blacken their oil at the same rate as the 4-strokes. The combustion gasses must be coming through the guides. A separate oil system for the valve gear may prolong oil life. Finally, if the engine operated upsidedown it may also need additional pumps and coolers. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? SwinnyGG (Mechanical) 5 Oct 21 03:36 I mean I'm not saying you're wrong... but you're talking about a very, very minor subset of engines as a whole. This bit: Quote:I do believe nearly all of the blow-by into the crankcase comes up the valve guides. Is, I must say, not the case. If it were every valve cover you ever took off would be chock full of carbon. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 5 Oct 21 03:38 On diesel engines you can see the soot sprayed on the inside of the valve cover. Gas engines don't make so much carbon, they do varnish instead. But the oil has dispersants so the accumulations of carbon should be minimal. It mostly gets removed during the oil change. Some of our engines have valve covers like engine hoods. You can open them with the engine running. You can see the smoke coming up the guides during cold starts. Turbocharged engines are worse because they have higher exhaust pressures. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? SwinnyGG (Mechanical) 5 Oct 21 13:39 I'm not totally unfamiliar with large format diesel engines.. I worked at the Redford, MI Detroit Diesel plant in R&D for a number of years. There's certainly leakage through valve seals, but it's not a major portion of the total. This is a thing we studied. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? Demented (Industrial) 26 Oct 21 16:25 Could it be that they're referring to a transmission oil/fluid cooler as a valve oil cooler? Especially with a lot of power steering systems use transmission fluid. Seems like an awful silly idea to try and specifically cool the oil spraying on the valve springs in the engine head. RE: Valve spring oil cooler? SwinnyGG (Mechanical) 26 Oct 21 16:30 Quote (Demented)Could it be that they're referring to a transmission oil/fluid cooler as a valve oil cooler See my post above.... this is exactly it. They're listing a series of heat exchanger sizes typically used for power steering or small transmission cooling applications, and saying 'oh by the way sometimes people use these to cool valve spring oil too'. This whole thread is the result of a weird marketing listing by Setrab as far as I can tell. Nothing really to see here.