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Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

There are a number of things about the Heliogen type of solar plants that I like. This is a potentially viable solution for a number of locations and industries. Hopefully, it will live up to the promise and we'll lessen our reliance on fossil fuels.

To me, this technology is superior to roof top solar panels for a number of reasons. The video spells out the good for the concept, but it is mostly a marketing video without a ton of depth to it.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Is green hydrogen different than regular hydrogen?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Quote (ironic metallurgist)

Is green hydrogen different than regular hydrogen?

According to the video, yes. They classify 'green hydrogen' as coming from splitting water and regular hydrogen as being steam-methane reforming, which is the predominant production method in-use.

Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

is it "hi-fi" too ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

No. Still "H2"

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Quote (1503-44)

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.

I for one welcome our new overlords.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

I'm not real clear on the technology that Heliogen uses.

In some ways, it is sound nearly identical to the solar thermal plants like Ivanpah where reflected light is used to heat water, create steam and generate a turbine.

From what I understand, there are a few key differences:
1) They use individually controlled reflective mirrors to better capture / focus the heat.
2) They claim to have a method to capture the heat and use it to generate power later in the day (or at night) when the sun is no longer shining. But, they go into much detail about this.
3) They also talk about being able to generate an increased temperature which could allow them to generate transportable fuels. I think this is what they're talking about when they mention generating H2 from the water.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

There is a lot of free money floating around for H2 at the moment. One of the more risible ripoffs I'm paying for is a natural gas to H2 plant. Quite why they think CO2 released from a reformulating plant is any different to that released by the user is beyond me. However there are serious proposals around for H2O-> H2, and some are also proposing H2O-> NH3, both of which are interesting if they are practical.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

CO2 can be more easily captured at 1 plant then from running around trying to collect it from thousands of users.

Josh, A US DOE link to H2 production technologies.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Don't get carried away.
Did you forget that burning coal produces much more than heat and water, even if you capture the CO2.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

The goal posts moved some time ago.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

98.5% of hydrogen is made from fossil fuels- principally methane and coal- without carbon capture.

That has NOT meaningfully changed in the last 20 yrs by the way, despite all the hyperbole and marketing bum-fodder you've been seeing in the media.

That's done because a) it's cheap and b) dumping fossil CO2 to the atmosphere is either free or still very cheap.

Fix that and things will change. Fail to fix it and it won't.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

The only (economically and environmentally) legitimate way I can see to produce H2 is conversion from H2O using passive, low-intensity energy production methods. Solar is ideal for this. Inserting this H2 into the natural gas stream (which can accommodate a lot of it) makes H2 essentially an energy storage medium.

I don't see a large scale hydrogen distribution system happening, due to cost, safety, and technical challenges. The cost is mainly due to the required massive conversion of infrastructure from 'wellhead' to burning. The payoff in CO2 reduction in the limited time we have available will not justify it, so beware of H2 enthusiasts.

Whatever we do, coal is a losing option, even if you believe in the fantasy of carbon capture and sequestration - the harmful components like SO2 and Hg are sufficient to disqualify it.

There are also geopolitical aspects - e.g. Australia's commitment to expanding coal exports have given China massive political leverage there (and they don't hesitate to use it). In future, 'national security' will mean doing more and more at home, from resources to food to manufacturing to services. Well it always meant that, we just forgot how important it is.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

"That's done because a) it's cheap and b) dumping fossil CO2 to the atmosphere is either free or still very cheap. Fix it and things will change."
Absolutely correct.
I might also add.
Dont fix it and things will change.


Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

(OP)
People have done mirror concentration before but they've achieved 400 degrees, 500 degrees.
We've achieved 1,500 degrees.
https://youtu.be/ZvdENQ5KMjo

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

(OP)
https://youtu.be/5-OLAHgB1mU

Heliogen Inc., which provides AI-enabled concentrated solar power and was founded in 2013 through Idealab,
Pasadena-based startup accelerator run by serial entrepreneur Bill Gross.
It’s merging with Athena Technology Acquisition Corp.

Athena Technology Acquisition Corp. (Ticker: ATHN) to merge with Heliogen, Inc. in SPAC deal
Heliogen provides AI-enabled concentrated solar power
Heliogen’s proven technology uses mirrors to reflect sunlight at a small receiver, generating intense heat
Heliogen CEO is entrepreneur Bill Gross, who has seven startups backed by his Idealab incubator
SPAC Athena led by CEO Phyllis Newhouse, Xtreme Solutions founder, 22-year Army veteran
PIPE investors include ArcelorMittal and Morgan Stanley’s Counterpoint Global
Backed by billionaire investors including Bill Gates, Patrick Soon-Shiong
Customers include U.S. Department of Energy, ArcelorMittal, Rio Tinto, Bloom Energy

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

While that's impressive, high temperature isn't as important as your useful output, efficiency and lifecycle cost of operation and production. We generally like to see those details, rather than who has money to burn on another startup that will never get over 2.75% or a 750W output. I see the whole Sahara covered with mirrors in the video, but as we all know, anybody can turn sunlight into power there. There are already plenty of hot rocks. Modular systems too. The key breakthrough needed is how much of a reduction in area of land used per kW produced have you achieved over a 500 C system and what's the breakeven $/kW? What is the largest capacity and locations of your current plants? Where is the meat?

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Hate to put a stick in the spokes, but what are we going to do with all that hydrogen? Even yellow brick roads cover over precious farmland.
People need to wrap their heads around the brutal reality that we cannot carry on with merely a modified version of normal.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

"Hate to put a stick in the spokes" ... no you don't ! (c'mon, smile)

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

My mission in life is to disabuse people of their delusional fantasies*.
If I described everything we need to do to 'save the planet' (horrid expression) you would have me sectioned.

* Not exempting myself from the possibility of blind spots

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Don't worry about the hydrogen. That's not the problem.

It does bring up another interesting question .that I for one have not thought about. I usually don't get such choices, but if there is a choice of transporting elctrical energy, that's what this thing is making after all, why not just make it and transport it in wires, rather than convert it into H2, transport it by pipeline and potentially turn it back into electricity in Italy or somewhere. WHAT ARE THEY THINKING WITH THAT? AI fail.

Now for my question, is it more efficient to transport x MW in a wire, or the equivalent amount of H2 in a pipeline, ignoring for now what might be happening downrange. I think we are going to be needing more copper than we will API 5LX-60, but maybe their AI knows more than MyI.

And a note to the publicist, its not the right image showing yourselves tearing up food producing land in the same frame as setting out mirrors.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

"save the planet" ?? ... see George Carlin on YT.

But seriously, yes this is a very serious concern but we only know some of the rules of the game. One we know is "don't push Nature too far, she'll bite back", but we don't know where "too far" is. Unfortunately once we know where it is, it's too late ! And the game is very serious, it'll end in one of three ways ...

1) the end of the human race (my personal take on this is that Nature's reaction to our "abuse" will trigger social reactions that will "close the deal".

2) the end of a portion of the human race (but I feel that once this starts we'll be heading to option 1) pretty quickly). Climate change could produce a "culling" of the human race and bring with it a new dark age. And then how much use will our digital libraries be ?

3) human civilisation manages to overcome this challenge and continues on to "bright sunlit uplands".

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

4) After 1M years of evolution and 6000+ years of recorded history, human nature will change 180°.

What do you estimate our chances at?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

Why is Elton trying to go to Mars.

RE: Sunlight refinery: Producing green hydrogen competitive with fossil fuel

I don't know ... to eff up another planet ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

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