Wait until you have a written offer in your hand and have actually 100% made up your mind to accept.

It's usually best to know that you have your new job offer in hand. Otherwise, you run the risk of forever being the guy who wanted to leave. No matter how 'friendly' you may be with your boss (I'm assuming they own the firm), your relationship should be business first. If you have developed a friendship as well, so much the better - they should be able to see the logic behind the move if the pay and benefits are better and there's more room for advancement.

Sometimes people get asked to leave once they mention they applied somewhere... so I wouldn't say anything before you have an offer.

To be fair to your current employer, you can talk to them about advancement or providing the things the other job offers without mentioning a different job. If they say "no" , you don't have to feel guilty for leaving - you gave them a chance to keep you.

If you tell them, and don't get the offer, you will be forever branded as the guy who will leave. So no more training, better software or whatever. And if they have to cut back, you will be the first since you "wanted to leave anyway".

Are you mad?

What possible good can come from telling your boss about this potential, repeat potential other employment before you have an offer? None.

If you're applying for other positions then your mind is already >50% there.

At the end of the day you're an employee and the firm will look after themselves. Try not to burn any bridges, but if the company really valued you then they would pay you more and look after your career better. And give you more than presumably one weeks notice period. Works both ways.

Think of this like breaking up with someone when you're the one fancying some one else. Sure you feel a little guilty and a bit sleazy, but hey, It happens every day and life goes on.

And like pham eng says, make sure you are prepared for an immeadiate exit BEFORE handing in your notice. You can get marched out the door....

Not what that might entail I'll leave to you - taking data, emails etc is not strictly legal, but everyone many people do it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

I agree with the general sentiment expressed above; some companies will walk you out the instant they decide you're no longer needed or wanted, and I can see the same if you are the instigator. Now, there are exceptions, obviously; in my first job, I gave one month notice to ensure that everything I was involved with was cleanly handed off or completed. Of course, I had already accepted the offer for a new job elsewhere. I expect to give many months of notice for my retirement, since there is no one currently able to take over my duties, but I've worked for the company over 25 years.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

In my 49+ year engineering career (I retired five years ago) I only changed jobs once (now it is true that in my second job, the company I worked for changed nearly a dozen times, but that was due to spin-offs, sales, acquisitions, mergers, etc.) and I waited until I had a firm offer (it wasn't actually in writing, although I was told that 'it's in the mail', but it was a world recognized company so I took their word for it) before I informed my boss that I was taking a new job, for significantly more more money and in retrospect, a much better career path. And I left a small company where I respected the people I worked with and for, but I had a growing family and I had acquired certain skills and capability which my first employer was not in a position to properly compensate me for. While it was a tough decision to make, once I saw what my options were, and I had that 'firm offer', I never looked back.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

LittleInch - to be clear, I didn't say anything about taking data with you. It's a good point, though. Be careful doing it, of course, since the data probably belongs to the employer (even the excel calculators you built! - check your contract/employee manual). Stealing IP is not condoned here...

Phame eng - apologies - i've amended the text.

I can still remember leaving my first job. You feel bad, but know it's the right thing. Once they get over the shock, most decent managers know it happens all the time and if they have half a heart will be pleased for you as person if not for the company or their own workload.

But never ever tell them if you don't get the job that you were looking seriously.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Thanks for the advice everyone. This all confirms what I think I need to do as well. Lol, I'm not mad, just want to do right by all involved. I will wait.

One thing I used to do at my old firm...I'd drop casual hints about the recruiters reaching out to me on LinkedIn or mention that one of our competitors was hiring. Never in a "I'm going to leave" sort of way, but just enough to remind management that I had options. I never had to ask for a raise .

Please let us know how it goes, one way or the other....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

If you get the offer and tell them you need 2 weeks, keep the option open to start immediately.

We hired a guy and he gave his old firm 2 weeks notice. The morning of the day after he gave his 2 weeks they called him and told him he doesn't need to bother coming in. He was already in the car on the way to (his old) work. We let him start earlier than planned, but that isn't always possible.

When I gave my two week notice back in 1980 when I changed jobs, my old company demanded three months, but we were moving cross country (Michigan to California) and that would screw-up our two sons starting school so I finally negotiated it down to five weeks.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

I've never been offered the courtesy of multi-week notice from an employer laying people off.

Quote (JohnRBaker)

my old company demanded three months

Companies can demand what they want... what they get from me depends wholly upon what they're asking for as well as HOW they ask for it. I provided two weeks notice in my last position, they came back and asked if I could stay three... I was adding a week off in between both jobs as a mini vacation, so it wasn't a huge deal to keep working the extra week (not to mention it was the week before Christmas, so I knew I would be sitting at my desk doing zero work... never did understand why they wanted the extra time).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

I had a (verbal) job offer rescinded once, they eventually did come to the party and provide me with a written offer which I subsequently accepted, but if I'd acted on the initial verbal I'd have been unemployed for about 2 months.

I am also aware that employment law varies by location, but here, if I'd given my notice and the company decides they no longer require my services for the notice period they're still obliged to pay me, regardless of whether they require me to attend or not.

EDMS Australia

That part made me curious as well.

What's the normal in the US for notice period both ways?

UK it's usually a min of one month and now often three, but that can often be negotiated down if you've got a new job to go to. Or the current employer puts you on "gardening leave" to stop you working for a competitor. A bit spiteful but legal.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

I'm not sure if there is a law or rule, but 2 weeks seems to be a typical notice for the employee. It seems employer can fire you without notice. So there is that. A lot depends on the law in each US-state. But if they run out of money, it is often that Friday an employee gets told to pack their stuff... watch the movie " Office Space".

A co-worker told me in a previous firm they had a staff meeting on Monday. There they were told that the reason only half the people are in the staff meeting, is the others were fired over the weekend.

But can they enforce the 2 weeks, or whatever? It only makes sense if the employee is eager to leave on good terms. I mean what stops me from calling in sick, or working really slowly? Forced labor isn't productive. A manual laborer maybe can be forced to work and shovel a certain amount of sand or whatever. But us engineers aren't very good in forced labor situations. So I bet if for some reason an employee insists on leaving immediately, they get their way.

The standard 2-week notice in the U.S. is still common, but you have to check your employee handbook and any agreements you signed when you joined the company. I gave my 2-week notice to my last employer and they requested that I also take a 30-day "time out" period to which I laughed, gave them my attorney's card, and started my new job a day after my 2-weeks were up.

I agree with many others though, when people got fired or laid off, I don't recall a 2-week notice. I've been in that awkward spot of having to both fire and lay people off - it isn't fun at all.

In the US, at least on the East coast, I think the "normal 2 week notice" is just a generic gesture expected. You certainly don't HAVE to do it, but it can leave a bad taste in your previous employers mouth if you ever wanted to come back or need a reference.

I agree its something of a double standard where employers can lay you off or fire you without notice, but I also get it from their perspective (don't want a terminated employee having extended access to networks, etc).

I think in the UK and Europe the join notice period only become invalid if the company goes into liquidation. Then you can't work for that company so can start immediately at any other if you've got the chance.

Who pays statutory reduncany then is either the liquidator if there's any money left or the government (in the UK at least). One week per year ( or 1 1/2 weeks for > age 40) but a max weekly pay of £544 and a max payout of £16K

Plus minimum notice periods of 1 week or 12 weeks if there >12yrs

Two weeks notice in one direction and no weeks in the other?? Hmmmm

But yes, most people don't want to burn bridges without good reason so two weeks which gives you some sense of handover and a professional "closure" is normal in Engineering. Four weeks can be a real bind so often you end up taking your outstanding holidays or just coming to an agreement that three weeks is enough. You then spend most of your time gossiping with fellow employees all trying to see if they are underpaid / undervalued and wanting you to "remember them" if opportunities come your way.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Most states in the US are "employment at will" (in fact, Montana is the only non at-will employment state), which means a company can terminate your employment at any time (zero notice) without provided reason, unless specified otherwise in a contract (and they rarely go that route, because the agreement has to be fair to both employee and employer). However, if the "reason" can be proven to be illegal (i.e., discrimination), the lawsuits kick in.

Two weeks is generally considered fair notice for most jobs, though longer terms are appreciated for professional positions (i.e., all of us). Two weeks has generally worked well for me, and I try to make sure everything is wrapped up before that period is over... sometimes leaving projects in the middle can't be avoided, but unless you hate your employer, cleaning up as much as possible beforehand keeps those bridges form being completely torched.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

The two week notice is a traditional practice. If a company terminates an employee, they generally want the person gone immediately, for a number of valid reasons, but will usually pay for at least two weeks.

A disgruntled employee may cause sabotage or steal company secrets, a "dead man walking" is bad for the morale of other employees, and someone who knows they they are leaving has little motivation to be productive

As MacGyver mentioned, most employment in the US is "at will." In that case, employment can be terminated by either party at any time for any reason (within the limits of the law - discrimination, etc - also as MacGyver mentioned). An employee can walk out and start working for somebody else the day they quit. They can also start working for them before they leave if they really want to, but risk getting fired if their other employer finds out. Most company policies require the 2 weeks notice of their employees and implement penalties if you don't do it, like not paying back vacation/sick time. I've honestly never checked to see if that was legal, and haven't been in a position to need to challenge it.

Some employment is contractual, and can have different rules and set other guidelines.

Traditional practice for giving notice is 2 weeks, but in professional settings I've learned a good rule of thumb is the number of weeks of vacation you're given. In the US, you typically start at 2 weeks and gain a week every 5 years up to 4 or 5 weeks, depending on your employer (5 seems to be pretty rare these days). So it's an indirect measurement of your value to the company and likely the importance of your position. The longer you've been there, the more time you'll need to turn over.

IME stateside I would expect the OP to be walked out as soon as a supervisor hears of an interview elsewhere to prevent IP theft or other issues. When putting in notice of accepting a job elsewhere, I would give it 50/50 odds that they are walked out immediately for the same reason. During a layoff such as during an industry downturn, management usually gives general notice that there will be layoffs upcoming without mentioning specific names, so smart employees are prepared to be walked out on the magic day. Having been part of large, multi-thousand employee layoffs I prefer the no-nonsense approach - notify me, get the HR paperwork handled, let me clean out my desk, and I'll leave with a smile, handshake, and no hard feelings. Sadly, employers are becoming reticent to even let folks clean out their own desks anymore due to the overly emotional nonsense and games many play. The irony of the drama is that for many folks and engineers in particular, layoffs can be amazingly rewarding both financially and intellectually.

My experience is quite different from CWB1 - a difference of employer size likely plays a big role. Like you, I worked at a small structural firm. One office serving the local region and, for a few clients, the entire Mid-Atlantic and Northeast and a few government jobs a little further afield. Staff is very close knit. When I got an offer elsewhere (from a client, not from a competitor) I gave them roughly 1 month notice and stayed on part time after that to make sure all my projects were wrapped up.

CWB1's advice is solid, though, and in some cases I could see a small employer being even worse since they could take it as a personal insult that you're leaving. If they do, too bad for them, but keep in mind that it can have an impact on you.

Long story short, you never really know how they'll react. Don't say anything until you have an offer in hand, and when you do be prepared for just about anything.

"someone who knows they they are leaving has little motivation to be productive"

In my direct experience, other than pride, professionalism, unwillingness to destroy a good working relationship (3 out of 4 employers would have me back, one did), you'd be right.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

Being walked out during a layoff makes sense, since it's involuntary, and there's likely to be some bad feelings; quitting, on the other hand, is a voluntary gesture, and if IP were to be taken, it would already have been done so, since there's no need to wait until the notice period to do so. I sort of see being walked out upon giving notice as being an act of vindictiveness.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Also, try not to burn bridges, even if you feel bad about the company. You will be in the clear.

Andries

I didn't know what IP was... and found this site.

https://www.smartbiggar.ca/insights/publication/do...-

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

ET's automatic link generator missed the hyphen on the end of the link

Link

As a general rule, if you are an employee, then you were recompensed, by your salary, for any IP generated in the course of working for them, so they own the IP. All patents that I've gotten are owned by the companies I worked for.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Remember that a job offer- even a written one- is NOT a contract. No consideration has changed hands.

So you shouldn't tell your employer that you're quitting until you actually have a job offer in hand- and preferably, have received some consideration from them- $1 is fine- to make it a legally binding contract. That way they can't do what was done to me on my 1st job out of school: they made me an offer, I rejected it, they sweetened it by 4% and I accepted. 3 days later I got an offer from another firm for 13% more, but I'm a man of my word...Went away to Europe, came back, paid 1st and last on an apartment and moved in- went to see my new boss a week before my start date. He said "hi, your pay has been cut by 5%". I was now making 1% less than an offer I'd rejected, and 18% less than the offer I'd turned down from the other firm.

My recourse would have been to just not show up, and try to beg my way into the other firm. I didn't- I stayed- and they were into my pocket several times to take back money they'd agreed to give me over the next 2 yrs. Finally after cutting me down to 4 days per week, I had a day off every week to look in earnest for another job, and I found one and handed in my notice.

Lesson learned...a contract needs an offer and acceptance, it needs to be legal, you need to both have the capacity to enter into the contract, and some "good and valuable consideration" has to be offered. That can be defined as something other than money, but if you leave a job and then they cancel your offer, here in Ontario they would owe you nothing for that- unless you make it clear that leaving your prior job is "good and valuable consideration" sealing the deal.

Not suggesting you be your own employment lawyer, nor am I trying to be one for you, but hiring one is a good idea when they're needed.

Not sure what that $1 does for you, MM, but it certainly doesn't make the offer a legally binding contract from a payscale or period-of-employment point of view (though they may be locked into certain items they list in their employment contract... see above). Ss I mentioned above, companies can part ways with you at any time, and your salary isn't guaranteed, either. Nothing legally stopping a company from coming in on day two and saying "We're cutting your pay 5%".

I would have immediately contacted that other firm and asked if the offer was still available... and if it was, I would not have provided any notice to the first company, I would just stop showing up. It's not like they could claim the higher moral ground after screwing you over...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Having a dollar change hands in many cases makes a transaction legal in the eyes of the law. Most patent agreements have some sort of wording in them about transferring the ownership of a patent for "one dollar, paid in hand". I was lucky, back when I was working as a machine designer my company paid us $100 (after taxes) for each patent application submitted and another $100 (after taxes) if and when a patent was issued, and that was to each of the co-inventors listed on the patent. Note that this was back in the 70's when a $100 could actually buy you something. For the record, I'm a co-inventor on two US Patents.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

I've left two employers in the engineering field and my experiences are one like the one described by CWB1 and one by phamENG.

The first employer I gave three weeks notice and worked the entire three weeks. I wanted to leave them in a good spot and they had no problem with that. They'd hire me back in a heartbeat if I ever wanted to go back. In fact, I'm friends with some of the higher ups there to this day and they also tease me about coming back.

The second one I gave my two weeks right before I left one night. My boss called and said they were considering walking me out. I was on my way home so they couldn't do it that night. By the time I got home my email and access to the company system had been shut off. I went back the next day and cleaned my desk out and turned in my badge. I was a little pissed because I was planning on staying on to help them and close out my stuff. They had done some shady things to me and I still was willing to take the high road....they weren't.

I wouldn't tell your boss you are leaving until you've accepted in offer. I'd also consider (maybe highly recommend) that you give more than 2 weeks if you are leaving on good terms.

I've left 4 employers in my career. All 4 times I was more than happy to continue working for my notice period. In three cases I felt no ill will at all, it was just time to move on for various reasons (lack of challenging problems to solve, restricted upward or lateral mobility, etc). In 1 case I was quite angry, but was the leader of a team of great people who were shat upon by director-levels without a clue. In that case I would've stuck around for an extra two weeks just to ease the burden on my team.

Anyway. In all 4 cases, immediately upon giving notice, I was told to wait in the office of the manager to whom I was speaking. HR came in and we did whatever paperwork needed doing right there. I was then walked to my desk, allowed to grab my stuff, and in 3 of 4 cases was given the opportunity to make a short trip around the office to shake hands and say thank you to various people. In case number 4 they were very pleased to see me go, so the whole process was much less amicable. But I've always been immediately walked out. Granted, all 4 of these companies were in various corners of the technology sector, involving work with confidential clients and a lot of proprietary technology. So I never took it personally.

Quote (Remember that a job offer- even a written one- is NOT a contract. No consideration has changed hands.)

I understand that the little red sticker, attached to the contract, is considered as 'consideration'...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

I think only the OP can answer this question. About a year into my first job out of school, I came to the realization that the type of work that I was doing was not how I wanted to spend my career. I had a good relationship with my manager. I told him the truth, even before starting my search. He was very gracious, and had me help him fill my position. It ended up an amicable split. In fact, we would even go to lunch together annually to catch up.

My next position did not end in the same manner. I had moved into a management position, the economy sucked, I was letting engineers go every month. I knew they needed to cut salary, so I did not feel comfortable with the same approach. I found my new position and offered a months notice before leaving. They accepted the month. They did appreciate the month. Now, they are a client of mine.

No matter what you do, handle yourself as a professional. This is a small world, you will be interacting with these people again, and soon.

I have read everyone's perspective and experiences with interest and appreciation. The two weeks that I plan to offer is a minimum. Right now things have slowed down some and my projects are wrapping up. I have not yet received an offer from the potential employer, so a lot of this will depend on what they need. This may be all for nothing if I don't get a job offer. I have considered "hanging on" to do some work on as-needed basis until my position is filled. I fill a niche in my company with some extra experience I have. This will not be a conflict with the potential employer as the two don't compete and my new career is a slightly different direction than structural design. I have seen others do the same. I will keep the thread posted on if I receive a job offer and how the rest goes.

I would like to hear other's experiences with doing part-time type work for their former full-time employers.

I had hoped to do actual design work for them (since my new job was quite different and I knew I'd want to get back to design sooner or later), but they really just used it to wrap up loose ends on projects I was familiar with. Eventually the phone stopped ringing, so I officially resigned and started doing my own design work on the side.

Sounds good in theory, but in practice you need to place the priorities and time available to your new employer over your old one and fairly rapidly the old boys will realise that you're not theirs anymore and they are playing second fiddle to the main day job.

Now they might not like it but if there is no alternative then it might play out ok for a little while, but sooner rather than later it will come crashing down, it always does, unless it is just literally a few hours a month you're talking about.

Only if you're an independent consultant working for two or more companies does it become viable as then it's up to you how to balance the competing projects into the time you have available.

My experience is once you're out of the door then you're just forgotten about. When I have left any job I made a point of saying feel free to call or e-mail any questions etc about the project. Not a single call or e-mail.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

I changed jobs 4 times. Never handed over my notice before having the new contract signed in my hand.
I'm not considering to change jobs as I love the company, the team that I work with and my job. It has been my longest stint, 7 years next month.
Every time I left in good terms because I always negotiated the starting date considering at least my contractual notice period or finishing a project that I was leading.
So my previous notice periods were between 1 month and almost 3 months.

I quit one job where we had a problem that had been dogging us for a couple years, so I convinced them to give me a contract to find the root cause after I left. Unfortunately, I figured out the problem in less than two weeks, and was too honest to milk it for more .

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Rules and laws vary by location. And I'm not a lawyer, much less one who knows YOUR situation.

Employers can in some places dismiss people without cause and without compensation "at will".

Here in Ontario, Canada, most employees start in a new position "on contract" rather than being hired on immediately as full time salaried employees. A probationary initial contract is traditional. A "contract" employee has a contract for a term, with payment rate fixed FOR that term i.e. not subject to unilateral change. If they are terminated prior to completion OF that term, unless it is stipulated otherwise in the contract to the contrary, they are owed some compensation as well as some notice or pay in lieu of notice. And if employed full time, dismissal without cause always ends up in some severance compensation plus notice- even after a short term. That severance compensation, based on past advice given to me by an employment lawyer, must include compensation for the fact that you voluntarily left prior employment from a firm which continues to carry on a business- unless that was a long time ago. There are standards set as minimums under the Employment Standards Act, and higher levels set by the expectations of the common law which vary greatly.

In my case, I was offered a choice: I could voluntarily renegotiate the contract I'd already signed, to accept a lower rate of pay, or I could be dismissed without pay of any kind because a) I was not recruited from previous employment and b) the contract stipulated no compensation for premature termination, so if I wanted it I'd have to fight them for it.

There was no point in going back to the other firm to see if the offer I'd graciously rejected was still standing- it was a "buyer's market" for firms hiring fresh grads that year. I was top 5% of my class from one of the best schools in Canada and had just finished a Master's degree in record time, but for the time, getting two offers was considered very good luck.

The way I see it, I was welcomed to the profession of engineering with a raised middle finger. You can doll it up in "professionalism" or whatever nonsense you like, but it's a job like any other job. Services in return for money. They could have offered me that extra 5% in worthless shares in their company and I'd have been totally happy, but they chose instead to cheat on the deal we'd made- because they could get away with it.

It was an important lesson, at a time when it cost me very little to learn it. I had few choices though- the day I went in to see my new boss, I had $32 to my name- but no debt, so I was ahead of many (and well ahead of any kid graduating from my uni without rich parents today, I'll tell you!). But it certainly cost me enough of my dignity at the time that I'll never forget it.

Quote (JohnRBaker)

Having a dollar change hands in many cases makes a transaction legal in the eyes of the law.

I get that... but despite the contract now being considered "legal" (for whatever that actually means), it provides zero further protection against them changing your salary the next day or walking you out the door two hours later. In short, adding $1 does nothing substantive for you.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

I agree mac... but, you probably didn't want to work there anyway...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Quote:

walking you out the door two hours later.

The Wednesday of my first week at one company, we had a really nice picnic for all the new employees, which numbered around 30. Friday, half of them were laid off; 4 months later, I was the only survivor from that group.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Has to be some form of record there, IR... I've heard tell of happenings a few months after a hiring surge, but never within the same week I'm curious to know why...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

My problem was the opposite.

A little history: After my freshman year, 1965-66, I got a job for the summer working as a draftsman at this company in Saginaw, MI which manufactured food and chemical processing machinery. I worked in the food group which primary designed and manufactured equipment for large commercial bakeries. After completely two terms of my second year in school (we were on a three term plus summer session system) I left school and the company I had worked for hired me full-time as a draftsman. The reason I left school was because I got a bit burned-out and I was also planning on getting married, which we did that June (still with her today, nearly 54 years later). Anyway, I worked there nearly 18 months as a full-time employee. The chief engineer, and several of the other engineers, had also graduated from my school and they all encouraged me to eventfully go back full-time. The chief engineer, who had become my mentor, promised that if I went back to school he would have a job for me every summer until I finished and if all went well, a job when I graduated. So in the Fall of 1968 I returned to school full-time and worked the next two summers, each time being given more responsibilities and opportunities. In the spring of 1971, my senior year, the chief engineer visited the campus looking to hire some graduates. Of course, we met (he took my wife and I out for dinner) and he basically said that he had a job for me and that the company would be giving me full-credit for my past time as an employee (this amounted to starting work with a 25-month backed-dated hire date). BTW, he also offered a job to another student, an EE, who started the same time I did.

Note that I had looked at some other job opportunities but 1971 was not working out as a good year, business wise, and there were not that many jobs being offered and besides, I liked the company I had been working for over the past five year and I had made a lot of friends there and the offer, money and benefits wise, in addition to the seniority bump, turned-out to be a really good deal and so I accepted the job, and said I could start to work the middle of June.

However, there was a problem. Remember when I said 1971 was not turning out to be a good year for business, well, it was not a good year for my new employer as well. About a week before I was planning to start work, I got a call from the chief engineer who explained that while I still had the job (and the other guy they had hired, the EE, he still had his job as well) that it would be better if I didn't start until the middle of July. It seems that they had just had a rather significant layoff that included people from both the office and the factory, which was a union shop. Anyway, they felt that it would look bad to have a couple of new engineers start work the week after a 10% reduction in staff, so that was why the delayed start date. Now once we both got there, things seemed to be OK, and no one ever really made an issue of it, and when our first annual review came along, at least I was, and I assume it was the same for the EE, 'taken care of' in that my boss managed to get me a one-time 'adjustment' that compensated for that lost month of pay. Note that by then, business had picked-up pretty good so it was probably a good move on their part. Note that I continued to work there until 1980, when I took the job in SoCal, from which I retired five years ago.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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Quote:

Has to be some form of record there, IR

Just bad planning is my guess; the division was on a downward spiral during my entire 5-yr tenure there; we went from about 500 people to less than 20, and had 10 general managers in that same period.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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Do NOT tell your employer. Never tell a current employer anything. Any if you work at a small firm / family firm that means your opportunity for advancement / pay is limited. I recommend you apply and find the highest bidder.

Adding to the other posts here, do not mention your leaving to, anybody, including your workmates until you actually have a start date from your new employer.
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