Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Things they forgot to mention in the interview
(OP)
How many have been the victim of lack of full disclosure by their organization in the interviewing process? Seems like things have gone from bad to worse in this area for me over the past couple decades. Everything from springing overly restrictive non-disclosure agreements on the day of orientation, to not telling me that seven day work weeks were the expected norm. Any tales to tell?
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
The elusive 40-hr work week needs to be examined in the light of possible stresses on the company, i.e., is it a naked grab for more profits or is it poor planning or is it a life or death struggle? The answer to this basic question ought to mixed with your risk tolerance and desire to save your job.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
It's a really difficult situation when the leadership is fine with running everyone into the ground.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Agreed, if it was a highly cyclical environment where you worked a lot some months and then had relaxed hours during the "off season" or something, I could see that.
Unfortunately for the guys I know that's not the situation
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Many of these employers have gone through previous generations of boom/bust cycles where they were hiring people through one door and laying people off through another.
My company went through a massive downsizing after several large contracts evaporated; we lost over 50% of our workforce. Since then, we've been much more circumspect about hiring and firing.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
If you talk to a manager in the interview process you need to know whether they know what you will be doing by being promoted from within the ranks or if they just manage people and don't know much of the process.
Based on who you get to talk to in the interview process you will get either a clueless description of daily routine or a reasonable description of typical tasks and deadlines.
Additionally all companies have annoyances that come from corporate but you cannot really gauge that in the interview process.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
'Pay rate is...' (a bit on the low side) Forgot to mention 37 hour work week, no OT. When it works out to $100 less a week, forget it.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
SuperSalad, I am hoping you at least had a little EHS experience prior, or was it complete trial by fire? Did they offer any extra money when they dropped the extra responsibility on you?
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
The responses highlight the diversity of the work in engineering. It was not unusual that I worked more than 100 hours a week for weeks on end. It was also not unusual that I was basically on vacation with pay for weeks on end in return. For me, working like this was a major attraction and benefit to the work. I outright hate repetitious work. It's not for everyone but I can't imagine sitting at a desk everyday doing what amounts to the same work over and over with the only substantial difference between projects being the name of the customer. Often times the employer and customer were one and the same.
It's hard to believe a job description and reality being different enough to matter. If it isn't common knowledge about a company out there working like this it won't be long before it is common knowledge. Companies have reputations and one treating their employees deceptively like what's described here will mean the people they're attracting won't match those they're trying to hire.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
No, my previous EHS experience was the training I had received over my career by actual EHS managers. I had some regulatory experience with product registrations/compliance and whatnot, but not business compliance and certainly not OSHA stuff.
It has been mostly trial by fire with limited guidance from the people who did some of it before I arrived who were even less qualified to do so.
Suffice to say, I have learned much about OSHA, EPA, DOT, etc. in the past year and a half which I had practically zero knowledge on beforehand.
So far, I have not had any incidents on my watch, and I think I've been keeping the place good with the environmental reporting/compliance, OSHA training/compliance, etc. I've had a couple inspections and reviews from different regulatory bodies and no major issues have come up at least.
My main problem is the stuff done prior to my arrival. I occasionally come across things where I find myself saying, "So....who did this before and where are the records?", to which I often receive silence and shrugs and it becomes a scavenger hunt and self-guided crash course on the regulations. Even worse is the response, "Oh, do you think we need to do that?", which usually makes me cringe knowing I need to figure it out from scratch.
Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
EDIT: I did work one job (for a sole proprietor) who hired me a couple months before Christmas. He extended benefits on Day One (and even extended them 2 weeks after the last day) and also gave a Christmas bonus.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Where I am now, things were staggered a bit at the beginning. Access to health insurance was 1 month, 401k was 3 months, vacation was 6 months, bonuses/profit sharing vary based on hire date and other factors (since they're paid out at a fixed date for all).
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I spent 15 months with Parker Hannifin in the 80's on one of their projects. The day after I was hired I started with 2 weeks of paid vacation. They shut down for 2 weeks over the 4th and that's just the way it lined up.
Also because I worked mostly as an expat for foreign owned companies or with ghosted companies the rules on IRA's and 401k's from both the US and the foreign countries made them more hassle than they were worth. Although the rules are much easier to work with now than what they were, most foreign companies provide for alternative planning and investment methods.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
They called me back 1 day later and told me they didn't want me to work for them anymore.
Also, during the interview with this company (who was a very large construction company in the food processing industry with projects all over the world) I had asked why their headquarters were in a burned out old mill city in the middle of nowhere thousands of miles away from their projects (I asked the question tactfully). Their answer was that they could get professional labor cheaper than if they moved their company 100 miles to the east where there was ample talent at a more expensive cost.
buh-bye.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
No skin off your back. Much the better off for avoiding that scam outfit.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
That was 8 years ago, right before I lost my job (writing was on the wall that the company was going out of business.... and did). I had no other options other than trying to go it alone. To date (which isn't saying much over one of the longest economic expansions on record) I have been better off going out on my own then I would have been working for them. Had we come to some sort of terms I don't know what I would have done.
That's one thing I learned at my old job.... perks are nice and can end up with a huge $ in the end. I was one of very few who paid form my own car and gas to and from work. I had to pay 50% of my ever eroding health insurance and there was no 401K match (there was profit sharing.... but when there was no profit, there was no sharing) and I paid for my own cellphone.
Currently my wife works for a company that pays 90% of health insurance. That benefit has be a game changer for our family and has allowed us enormous flexibility.... every time her boss offers her a small raise I feel like she shouldn't take it just so we can keep that simple benefit.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Seeing the phrase Other duties as assigned also makes them klaxon horns go off.
If some yahoo makes vague promises of some future promotion or other such enticement: make them put it in writing or walk away.
You and the hiring manager should engage in a blunt conversation with the outcome of developing acceptable ranges and limits of working hours per week. And have it written into the offer.
Finally, again after that long career resulting in lots of battle scars, I have concluded that most Managers......aren't, and shouldn't be. Nothing that is said during job negotiations has any merit. Only the written word will survive the inevitable conflict and debate.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
before my retirement every one but me were giving additional duties. and given no additional pay raise for it.
I refused and chose to retire early , my has the industry has changed, more work, long hours, less pay.
more responsibilities.
my early years I was on salary, bennies were excellent, Eye Care, Health care, 401 K , excellent Vacation
as the years pass, eye care went away, health care degraded, no bonuses. for every one.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Ding, ding, ding! The root of most of the nonsense mentioned so far.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
You can more than likely blame the bean counters for that, and most of the problems listed above.... and most to the economic problems in general. They are obviously a very important part of business, but when the bean counters begin to rule, ultimately the workers suffer.
I had a buddy of mine, a bean counter... and a business owner, ask me in confusion why a he was being sued by a civil engineer over a $4k unpaid bill when he had promised to pay and in fact, had already paid a portion of his bill. I tried to explain to him that the civil engineer had completed his contract and deserved to be paid and that it wasn't the engineers fault that the bean counter over extended himself and couldn't pay his bill.
The bean counter insisted that we were all d***s.
The bean counter didn't get what I was trying to explain to him.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Likely, he was also a spectrum psychopath.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I am counting down the days. No way would I recommend my son or daughter to go into engineering or manufacturing fields these days. Medicine, law, or finance would be the only career fields I would recommend.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Skyrocketing student debt, mortgage issues, and ever-extending car loans may make the finance market tricky in the next few years, similar to 2008.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Sounds almost like Buffalo.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Some of the trades look promising - plumbing for example. It's not a surprise how grateful people are to have a non-functioning toilet repaired or replaced.
For a while a compounding pharmacist was a great job, but that may also be going away.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Aerospace companies bill out at up to $300/hr, but the actual worker is paid only about 1/3 of that; the rest is general & administrative, overhead, utilities, benefits, etc.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I know a couple trade electricians in my state who could not find enough work. One left the local electrician's union and took a private sector job. The other moved west for work. Doesn't seem promising from what I have seen.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Electrical
Civil engineering
Surveying
Drilling
Excavation
You name it
Up to $50/hr
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
And be good at it, just like us.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
During the interview, the company tries hard to impress you, telling you how wonderful it is to work for them, all the great benefits (well, sort of), the great teamwork, etc.
Then, 1 minute after you show up for your first day of work, they start piling on work, giving you more projects than you could do well in an 80-hour work week, plus HR training and keeping up with your PDH requirements. Then they degrade you by threatening your job if you work less than 60 hours per week.
Imagine if they told you this in the interview, "If we hire you, you'll be working 10 hour days, Monday through Saturday and maybe on Sunday afternoon, too." I'd walk out right there.
Why can't WE determine the amount of work we can do WELL? Are we professionals or not?
The current style of "management" treats engineering professionals as though they are machines that can be driven harder and harder. Even a machine overheats and breaks down if driven too fast; is it any surprise that humans do, too?
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
But I included be cause there are many engineering positions.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Personally, the biggest post-interview surprise for me was simply the difference in attitudes and ability when I moved from a Fortune 50 to a small manufacturer. The Fortune 50 attracted real talent and consequently had a highly efficient, highly competent, highly experienced, "keep up" atmosphere. You learned to work fast, learn fast, and stayed on the edge of technology or you were gone and replaced quickly. Granted, there were seemingly endless opportunities in research, manufacturing, and other niches to grow as an engineer. The small office was lackadaisical all around - nobody worked fast, nobody went out of their way to learn, and competency regarding engineering tools and knowledge was lousy. They had little in terms of research or manufacturing facilities, so to be fair, growth opportunities were limited to waiting on someone above you to retire or die. It only took me a few months there to become more competent than most of the engineering staff and management. Shortly thereafter I wrote a bit of FEA code as a sales tool which inadvertently obsoleted most of my position and forced me into the choice of being fired or let go due to lack of work. That experience definitely changed my view on professionalism.
I agree with the belief that the trades have a bright future for those willing to master them. Two important considerations tho that weren't mentioned - hours and ownership. Anybody with talent thats willing to work the hours can make really good money, last I knew my brother the lineman makes ~$27/hr straight time but works 60-90 most weeks and occasionally travels to other states on storm duty where he's on OT 24/7 for 1-3 weeks. ~$27/hr ~ $140k one year. Business ownership also makes a huge difference to one's income, tho to be fair it comes with liability and other headaches.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Me. Got bored and sick of this particular type of work.
Them. Oh we don't do that type of work, we'll sometime but very rarely
Me. Mmmm sounds good, happy to mentor others through it, but don't want to be doing it myself.
Them. Totally understand, like I said we've only done one of those types of jobs in the last few years.
Me. Cool, so when do I start?
Them. Next week.
First day on the job... Guess what I'm working on... FML.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Happened to someone I know.
Always ask yourself when a headhunter calls you: "Am I solving my problem, or am I solving their problem."
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
What does "FML" mean???
After you tell me, it is usually obvious.
Jim H
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Aside from that I've never noticed a problem.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Exactly why I have wondered for a long time why there is no professional union for engineers. I have worked in some union shops, where the hourly employees were protected by their union, all while the white collar staff was beat up daily and stressed for their jobs.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
You nailed the exact reason I do not relocate for a job. What are the chances they get me out to the middle of BFE and the new company dumps on me even worse than I had it before? Probably good chances these days since all company owners and HR idiots seem to share "trade secrets".
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Guess it depends upon the field...
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I think as well it really has a lot to do with the leadership and whose pushing the direction a company or team is going, get some good people in charge who know their stuff and a small number of competent people can achieve big things. Get some stale talent in charge who is afraid to make decisions or is too risk adverse and/or hire the wrong people and any innovation gets crushed.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I think this is a problem globally. I know some French people and they make working in a profession over there sound like a true nightmare. Endless unpaid overtime and the Sword of Damocles forever over your head.
I'm in a white-collar union but I find it pretty useless. The unions for tradespeople and service staff close the plants down and block the traffic whenever they don't like something, whereas ours spends years "negotiating" on things behind closed doors that seem to go nowhere. Perhaps it's because a white-collar union includes too many people who sympathise with management or are aware of the company budget... E
Even before shift pay and danger money come into it, the tradespeople recently got put on the same pay grades as engineering.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
IME the mega-corps are all very compartmentalized/niche-focused and process-driven on the product development side. Despite incremental changes in technology, they've made the same products for decades and have documented both the design process and time needed for each step of development. I've worked for several with automated PM systems that would send email reminders of tasks to perform, and if you didnt mark that you'd begun or completed a task within X hours of that email then management was notified to resolve the situation. With the exception of radically different products and pandemics/odd shutdowns, that might allow a poorly run 2-3 year project's launch to be off 2-3 weeks from its predicted launch. When you combine an effective PM with every engineer being "pigeon-holed" into a small niche, management becomes very effective. You might only own a few parts but you're effectively an assembly line worker and expected to be very proficient at doing your small bit on projects filling your entire week plus a few hours. Its boring, but professional. OTOH small companies IME tend not to have the luxury of broad product lines. Engineers consequently work on a much wider variety of projects, development is slower, and documentation of process and development time is generally terrible. That results in nothing being efficiently done. Combined with lousy career tracks (lack of management slots) and lousy personal development opportunities (lack of research/other facilities), the professionalism and ability generally sucks. Its not nearly as stressful or as boring, but going from a fast-paced professional environment to that seems about like going from the big leagues to intramural softball. My employer now is a medium-sized (several-hundred engineers) firm that I like to think has the best characteristics of both, but I dont think I will ever work for a smaller firm again.
As to engineering unions, I know several defense companies that have white-collar unions but honestly have never looked into the matter much as they are a bit of a rarity as are unbiased opinions of them. I've known a few of their employees and opinions swing greatly both ways with few in the middle, so I'll reserve mine until I am in that position personally.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
We once hired a hotshot designer, who was great for about 2 months; then, he started work around 10am, went to lunch around 11:30, came back around 1:30, and left for the day around 3pm. We had to fire his ass after several warnings.
Even if you only have one boss, prioritization can often be challenging; one coworker had this nice trick where he had a continually updated list of projects he was working on and would simply ask, "which of these other projects do you wish to eliminate or delay?" The manager would splutter and then go off to find a greener pasture.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I agree, your boss is the one who does your appraisals. The others are 'just' customers. Oh, and customers who stamp their feet and/or scream become targets of sarcasm.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
1. A succession of ever-changing people from the formal bureaucracy, as I moved among projects and departments.
2. The Founder/ Chairman/ Owner and VP, who had a set of projects all his own. I was one of maybe 50 "Champions" of his worldwide. He put us in touch with each other as needed.
All resources were siphoned off from the formal bureaucracy by simple theft.
The formal bureaucracy could never figure out where the resources were going, or how partially completed projects just sort of showed up.
It was a grand adventure.
Mike Halloran
Corinth, NY, USA
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
On the plus side, they each had their own strengths as engineers and in business, so I had an opportunity to learn a pretty wide range of stuff from them. But it sure was dizzying at times...
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
(OP)
18 Jun 20 15:07
Anyone other than me that has to try answering to three "bosses" and never sure whose project takes precedence over the others?
Yes many times and it caused many conflicts, beware when one boss gives you instructions with out consulting the other two.
I smarten up real fast and CC all of them.
even now I have more than three boss in my business and it never ends.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Didn't work out like that with large differences in approach between the partners and us/me stick in the middle.
I nicknamed it project Cerberus. Look it up.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Some people are looking for a company to retire from, others just want to learn and grow. If you can find both, great; they don't have to be mutually exclusive but more oft than not, you'll have to figure out what you're willing to put up with in staying with a company or, simply move on.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
What I was going to say was, now you are aware that our Board of Directors has been indicted, myself included, and we're prohibited from doing business until the investigation is completed. So obviously, we would have no use for you.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I was very fortunate that I got life lessons early, and learned from them. Life lessons hurt, and cost, much more later in life...
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Sounds like an issue between your supervisor and the PM office, both of whom should know your workload almost better than you. JMO but one of the hallmarks of a great company is how well they manage. The less I need to see a supervisor or PM the better the organization and the less time wasted on non-engineering details. My favorite past employer had their system set up so well that most months I saw my supervisor and a PM exactly once each outside of each project's monthly management review. My least favorite past employer was so poorly organized that my supervisor assigned new tasks almost daily.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
I ended up essentially working there, just on different terms and conditions
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
No, more like the white-collars were hoping to sit in the other chair within 5 years. Couldn't offend their future peers too much. On the other hand, the tradespeople knew they had no hope of joining management, so they wouldn't hedge their bets.
www.sparweb.ca
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
The pay laws and structures in the US automatically puts the trades and white collars on opposite sides, even though less than 10% of the white collars will actually move up into the upper echelons.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
In ductility we trust.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Unfortunately, I have seen that a time or two also. It always makes me wonder how "management" does not realize that jerking engineers from one project to the other in quick succession inevitably leads to more mistakes and errors.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
Especially given that a main theme of both agile and lean philosophies is that multitasking causes waste, both in terms of time lost and rework.
RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
> we know we're not supposed to overeat, but we do
> we know we're not supposed to procrastinate, but we do
> we know we're not supposed to smoke or inhale tobacco products, but we do
These are life-shortening thing, so presumably demand higher compliance; if we can't do that, how can we compliant to things that are merely efficient for business?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Things they forgot to mention in the interview
What I've learnt is to never give any value to subjective claims such as "career development" and "working on interesting projects". Rather, add-up all the quantifiable and quantifiable statements when assessing how good the job is (or isn't). If possible, everything discussed in the interview should be presented in writing (in the offer letter or employment contract). Any funny stuff (especially in the employment offer/contract) early on means run away, unless you have no other options.