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Electronic Signature for Florida 3

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SoFloJoe

SoFloJoe

Structural
Apr 3, 2018
76
Hi All,

I was searching the forum and found this thread but it does not seem like the question from the OP was really answered and I am wondering the same thing.
thread784-417284

I am a FL PE and a city is requesting the 3rd party verification process but I have no clue how to do it. And the 3rd party sites offer so many large scale business services that this service is hidden. In a chat I asked a rep and they told me its the "Digital Signatures" option and wanted $500 for 2 year subscription. I guess if I am doing many of these its worth it but I just need one for the moment.
The 3rd party services are:
•Entrust
•GlobalSign
•OpenTrust
•Symantec
•Identrust
•DigiCert

I agree that it is annoying that ADOBE Acrobat is not approved for whatever BS reason. I currently have a subscription with them and cannot use it [thumbsdown]But I do not want to get side tracked with that convo here. It is what it is.

The FBPE is just as confusing. There is no step by step way of doing this.
So my questions are:
How do I go about doing this? What ware the steps? Does a physical sheet still need to be sent to the building dept?
Is there a cheaper option for one time signatures? something along the lines of $10 per submission is reasonable.

Thanks you. I am about to tell my client that I am not doing a digital submission b/c this process is ridiculous and will probably take longer and have more issues than if we just handed in a printed physical one.
 
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Bumping to the top as I'm in the same boat right now.

Did you come to a reasonable solution here Joe?
 
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I went with Identrust (first option I found with the Google Machine)and haven't had any issues with it yet. I believe the total cost for a 3 year subscription plus the USB hardware key was $220.00 or very near that - they also offer a 1 year time frame that is a bit cheaper. I'm not aware of a pay per use option - I believe the main reason for this is that the whole point is that they (whichever company you go with) have to confirm your identity before issuing the certificate - that takes time and money, it makes more financial sense to verify your identity once and issue a certificate that is good for a certain time frame.

The steps:
decide on which 3rd party issuer you want to use - follow their steps to get the certificate. For me, Identrust took a few days to verify my identity before sending me my certificate - my verification was based background check information I believe. At my previous company the issuer they used required a video conference with a valid ID. Once verified, they send you the certificate you use to sign documents - this could be on a hardware key or may be cloud based depending on which options you go with.

You can now sign the PDF drawings using the digital certificate that they issued you. This saves a signed copy of the pdf, this pdf is the electronically submitted to the building department (I have seen some use email and others use an online portal that you upload documents to). I have not had to provide hard copies when submitting digitally, however some jurisdiction may require this.
 
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My experience, based on different usage than what you're looking at SoFloJoe, is that Adobe doesn't have a robust signature system.

Our office has adopted Adobe signatures based on internal preferences, not external requirements specified by our regulators. It was a practical decision to allow a traceable signature even though security is poor. The Adobe signature can be copied from one computer to another by resourceful users with no checks. Users cannot validate a signature on a document from their machine other than their own. When my Adobe installation "forgot" my signature last month, I had to generate a new one, and that reminded me how little security there is on the authentication process.

 
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Adobe's digital signature certificate requires a password to install, doesn't it? Mine does, and I have a 20-character password. Someone could try to duplicate the look, but the SHA1 signature wouldn't match

You could also use the digital certs from Entrust or Digicert, but those do cost money.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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I am not familiar with the Adobe signature certificate, but if it is similar to Bluebeam I believe the issue is that it doesn't require any verification of your identity when creating it.
Here is an excerpt from the Florida Law (many other state's have similar requirements):

(2) A professional engineer utilizing a digital signature to electronically sign and seal engineering plans,
specifications, reports or other documents shall have their identity authenticated by a certification authority
and shall assure that the digital signature is:
(a) Unique to the person using it;
(b) Capable of verification;
(c) Under the sole control of the person using it; and,
(d) Linked to a document in such a manner that the dig
Click to expand...

The main requirement above that makes Bluebeam's signature creation non compliant (and I assume Adobe's) is "have their identity authenticated by a certification authority"
 
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Who verified your identity when you bought a rubber stamp at a local print shop and then signed your drawings with an ink pen? Your clients, because they knew you. Because you lived in the same communities. The state accepted that if the client, a factory, say, hired a licensed professional engineer and then received a set of stamped drawings from her, then she was the person who created the drawings and sealed and signed them. The system still works if your client know you. Requiring that your identity be verified by a bunch of pencil-pushers via scanned Driver's Licenses or PE License cards is bureaucracy out of control.
 
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There is a difference between an Electronic Signature and a Digital Signature. A lot of us, including myself, are guilty of using the terms interchangeably. Orange County (Florida) does a good job describing the differences between the two.

Electronic Signature:
• Refers to any electronic process that indicates acceptance of an agreement or record.
• Uses a variety of common electronic authentication methods to verify signer identity, such as
email, social IDs, passwords, or a phone PIN. Standard e-signatures use single-factor
authentication. Enhanced e-signatures use multi-factor authentication to increase security when
needed.
• Demonstrates proof of signing using a secure process that often includes an audit trail along
with the final document.
• Does not necessarily guarantee that the document has not been altered.

Digital Signature:
• Digital signatures use a specific method to sign documents electronically.
• Online equivalent of a notarized signature
• Uses a certificate based-digital ID to authenticate the signer’s identity.
• Demonstrates proof of signing by binding each signature to the document with encryptionvalidation. This is done using trusted third-party Certificate Authorities (CA’s) or Trust Service
Providers (TSPs).
• Encrypted validation adds an additional layer of security and ensures data integrity.
• Proves that the document has not been altered by anyone since the verified signer sealed the
document.

What you need to do, and what the State of Florida will accept, is a Digital Signature. My present firm, and a few others that I worked for previously, use IdenTrust for this purpose.

A few words of caution:

1. Some PDF software accomplishes the signature process better than others. Stick with Adobe when signing. Bluebeam and others tend to produce un-verifiable signatures for others using different software.

2. PDFs cannot be modified in any way once the signature has been applied. The file name cannot be changed, the PDF can't be marked up, the PDF cannot be added to, or removed from, another PDF, etc. Doing any of these things will break the validity of the signature. You can, however, compress the files into a ZIP or other format.

3. Some jurisdictions in Florida will require you to submit electronically signed PDFs as one of the following:
-A combined PDF with individually signed sheets
-A combined PDF in which only the first page is signed
-Individually signed PDFs
 
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After thinking about this some more, I thought it would be prudent to just give you the link to Orange County's guide to electronic plans submissions. There are a few other requirements that need to be met in the State of Florida, such as the inclusion of a compliance statement adjacent to your seal.

The guide can be found here: Orange County Permit Application and E-Plan Submittal Guide.
 
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[ul]
[li]Tampa asked for all documents in the permit application to be combined into one pdf and they wanted my digital signature on the pdf even though I only did 3 of the 30 pages.[/li]
[li]An architect in Texas asked for me to separate each sheet into its own pdf and digital sign each pdf.[/li]
[li]City of Doral said before accepting my digital signature I had to submit "AFFIDAVIT AUTHORIZING SUBMITTAL OF SCANNED PLANS AND CONSTRUCTION DOCUMENTS IN LIEU OF DIGITAL SIGNED AND SEALED SET." When I told them the affidavit was for scanned plan not digital signature plan they said "That's the only affidavit we have you need to submit it."[/li]
[/ul]
I like to combine all my sheets into one pdf and digital sign the 1st page only. But I normally paste a picture of signature and seal on each sheet so when the customer prints it it looks stamped and each page has the Florida note "Printed copies are not considered signed and sealed."
 
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When I asked the Texas Board about the architect's request for each sheet in its own pdf he said,

Each page of the final version of engineering documents whether in a hard copy or an electronic format, must have the responsible professional engineer's seal and signature with the date affixed or placed on the page.
Sincerely,
Clifton A. Bond
Senior Investigator
Texas Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors

That does NOT mean I can put all the sheets in one pdf with one digital signature on the 1st page as long as I have electronic picture of signature and seal with date on each page. Clif went on to say a multipage pdf must have multiple digital signatures one for each page. WOW!

Board Rule 137.33(f) indicates that each sheet of plans or drawings must be signed and sealed by the professional engineer regardless of size or binding. I believe that requirement would also pertain to each sheet of plans or drawings submitted in a pdf format.

Sincerely,

Clifton A. Bond
Senior Investigator
Texas Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors

 
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Thanks everyone. I finally signed up.

dauwerda said:
I went with Identrust (first option I found with the Google Machine)and haven't had any issues with it yet. I believe the total cost for a 3 year subscription plus the USB hardware key was $220.00 or very near that - they also offer a 1 year time frame that is a bit cheaper. I'm not aware of a pay per use option - I believe the main reason for this is that the whole point is that they (whichever company you go with) have to confirm your identity before issuing the certificate - that takes time and money, it makes more financial sense to verify your identity once and issue a certificate that is good for a certain time frame.

The steps:
decide on which 3rd party issuer you want to use - follow their steps to get the certificate. For me, Identrust took a few days to verify my identity before sending me my certificate - my verification was based background check information I believe. At my previous company the issuer they used required a video conference with a valid ID. Once verified, they send you the certificate you use to sign documents - this could be on a hardware key or may be cloud based depending on which options you go with.

You can now sign the PDF drawings using the digital certificate that they issued you. This saves a signed copy of the pdf, this pdf is the electronically submitted to the building department (I have seen some use email and others use an online portal that you upload documents to). I have not had to provide hard copies when submitting digitally, however some jurisdiction may require this.
Click to expand...

I also went with Identrust, was the only one that did not have such a complicated website and clearly stated their fees. I too signed up for the 3 yr plan with the USB key, came to about $340 total.
 
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Joe...One of my partners and I use Identrust as well....happy so far. Most of our practice is in Florida.

 
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