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Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)

"The guns and barons marked
That, from the western Lusitanian beach,
By seas never before sailed
They went beyond Taprobana,
In perils and hard-working wars,
More than promised human strength,
And among remote people, they built a
New kingdom, which they have much sublimated."

— The Lusiadas, Song I, Stanza 1 by Camões

Today UNESCO commemorates de Portuguese language, as the fourth more talked in the world. My homage as Portuguese, is to show you a free translation of the first stanza of the epic “Lusiadas” poem of Camões who reveals the Portuguese soul and adventure challenge.

please correct my translation if you understand it.

Obrigado

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Yea, but you have to give most of that credit to Brazil, right?

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Irvine, CA
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RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

0707


http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.com/2018/06/cam...

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

IRS: According to your lists, it's #9... and I would never have guessed it was so high...

Dik

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

There is seemingly a bit of dipute on numbers as Unesco quote 265 million, but the top four are way ahead so 5th at best.

If you use Indo euopean languages it might creep in

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

I heard they speak an archaic form of Brazilian in Portugal.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

makes sense … the colony separates from the mother tongue when the colony is settled.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
The Portuguese were not saints, but in terms of colonialism in the ranking, let the evil comes to choose, they are far from Spanish, English, Holland, Belgians and French...ok we can put Portuguese in six.

Ok IRstuff I read somewhere the Portuguese language was the fourth, but no problem we can be the five or six more spoken, our tomatoes do not fall down because of that

“Organisers note that Portuguese is spoken by more than 260 million people on five continents – 3.7% of the world’s population – as an official language of the nine member countries of the CPLP (Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Equatorial Guinea, Mozambique, Portugal, Sao Tome and Principe and East Timor) and of Macau, as well as being a working or official language of a number of international organisations, including the European Union, African Union and Mercosul/Mercosur.”

Hi Artisi
Thank you for your input but, in the spirit of Camões, I think my translation "which they have much sublimated" is more poetic and less deathly.

"Among a distant people, to bring the name
Of a New Kingdom, and earn it deathless fame;"

"And among remote people, they built a
New kingdom, which they have much sublimated."

dik I give you the same answer to IRstuff.

IRstuff I don´t understand your confusion between Brazil and South Africa, please explicit...

LittleInch I agree with you.

TheTick, you are a lot wrong, Portuguese is an archaic form of Galicia/Portugal. There are also languages driven from Portuguese in some colonies as the "Criolo" in Cape Verde and in some points of Brazil with some similitudes with French and its old colonies like for instance Madascar and French Guinea.

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

What's the Portugese word for joke?

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Nice to see a list of horrible things that doesn't include Germany.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
TheTick

Portuguese words for joke are "piada" "anedota" "brincadeira", it all depends on the context.

German can also be in the ranking list, whatever the position, I just forgot them… Sorry

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

What was the question?

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
FACS, you have to go to the beginning of the the thread!. Help in the translation from Portuguese into English of the first stanza 1 by Camões, from the epic poem of "Lusíadas".

"The guns and barons marked
That, from the western Lusitanian beach,
By seas never before sailed
They went beyond Taprobana,
In perils and hard-working wars,
More than promised human strength,
And among remote people, they built a
New kingdom, which they have much sublimated."

— The Lusiadas, Song I, Stanza 1 by Camões

thank you FACS!

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Since asked for help with English:

Remove the the comma in the title, replace more with most, replace talked with spoken, and move language over a bit. Portuguese is the fourth most spoken language in the world.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
Thank you very much to correct me stevenal!

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Well, it is a poem so that would make it hard to translate.
Poems are lines that may or may not go together. They also use strange words.

If you want to check your translations, try copying the translated text into a word processing program and do a grammar check.

Engineers are the worst reference. I can spend hours fixing their writings.

But being a poem, it can go more than one way.

"The guns and barons marked that from the western Lusitanian beach.
By seas never before sailed, they went beyond Taprobana.
In perils and hard-working wars, they promised more than human strength.
Among remote people, they built a New kingdom which they have much sublimated."

OR

"The guns and barons marked that from the western Lusitanian beach by seas never before sailed.
They went beyond Taprobana in peril and hard-working wars as they promised more than human strength, and among remote people they built a new kingdom; which they have much sublimated."

OR

"The guns and barons marked that from the western Lusitanian beach by seas never before sailed. They went beyond Taprobana in peril and hard-working wars.
They promised more than human strength, and among remote people they built a New kingdom; which they have much sublimated."

I like the last one

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

The link above looks a much better translation

These are the tales of arms and matchless men
Who put to sea from Portugal's west shore
And trekked to Taprobana and beyond
By oceans nobody had braved before,
And in combat and crises held their own, 
Drawing on more than human skill, in war
Among a distant people, to bring the name
Of a New Kingdom, and earn it deathless fame;

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Oh, I see, now people want to actually answer the question.

Imagine that.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
Ok FACS

Your translation is without any charge of hate or colonial complex, those were times of discovery, adventure and also afraid of the unknown, "sublimated" is a much more poetic word than "deathless". Camões, the man who wrote these words was an adventurer, he dies poor, without fame, and really he has been in "perils and hard-working wars, more than promised human strength". He symbolizes the "fado" and the portuguese soul.

LittleInch, the translation you got somewhere, contains some racist complex, and it is not on the spirit of the poet, just only in my point of view, not as a statement.

Thank you both for the inputs

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Nevertheless, LI's translation is probably more consistent with what the morality and spirit that those explorers actually went by; they thought that bringing "God" to the "godless" heathens was not only their divine right, but their duty, as specified in the Bible.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

707

back to your original post, a couple of points for what they are worth

"In perils and hard-working won wars"
sublimated, far too academic - it has no feeling. no poetry ...

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

It came from artisis link in post no 4.

"Racist" how???

Anyway reads a lot more like a poem than the Google translate version.

Poetry is probably the hardest thing to translate and get close to the same sentiment. It's not a word by wooed thing.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

That's cute

Quote:

word by wooed

Perhaps not racist in the overtly pejorative sense, i.e., they didn't hate other races, per se; it was more of, "You need to be converted to Catholicism, to save your immortal souls, and I'll kill you and your family to save you."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
Sorry LI, racist is too strong, I didn´t meant that, instead I would say less poetic.

I like more FACS translations

Artisi, the meaning of the Portuguese word Sublimar - It is a direct transitive verb and means, Exalt or praise; make it, something or someone, to become sublime:

in the Portuguese National Anthem song, we have the word deathless, immortal, but in another context

“Heróis do mar, nobre povo nação valente e imortal”

"Heroes of the sea, noble people brave and immortal nation"

I understand your position IR, all the colonialist countries in name of the faith, they kill and submit colonized people, Portuguese were not the worse ones in that behaviour, they are far behind in that ranking.

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

707,
Irrespective of the meaning of sublimar in Portaguese, sublimate in English no longer expresses the meaning of sublimar(e)from Latin - - - academically yes / maybe but not in today's usage.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
I think you are wright but, the Portuguese language used By Camões is well different, than the actual Portuguese. Any way, as other posters said, to translate a poet is not an easy task.


thank you Artisi for your inputs

best regards

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)
Today is Europe day, The Lusiadas, Song I, Stanza 1 by Camões, because of its globality will be translated into, the several European

spoken languages.

luis

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

I thought Portugese developed on its own branch from the common Romance language being spoken over the Christian areas of the Iberian Peninsula at the time (1100 AD+/-), rather than directly from Gallego (Galician language) branch, like this "poetic" looking illustration shows. There are many simularities, but many differences too. I was trying to learn Portugese when I ws living near Coimbra, but I always had to count on my fingers to tell anyone what day of the week it was. You certainly did not get that from Gallego. What is the story behind that? It must be a good one. Is Portugese the only western language that does not name the days of the week after the Roman's gods? After all you got the months right. Was there some Euskara influence there?



“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

Sunday is not named after a Roman god, per se.

Sabado is ostensibly derived from whatever Sabbath used to be.

Days of the week in Chinese are numbered, although Monday is the first day of the week, unlike Portuguese. Sunday in Chinese is not numbered.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

OK I should have left it as "gods", not necessarily all of them Roman, but very few are not. Even Thursday. Well no, Sunday is in a way too. Actually the days are named for the planets, which were in turn named after Roman gods. Sunday, follows from the sun god Apollo. OK, it's backwards. But ya. I agree it's a little messed up. Ha! Gottcha! Sabbath is on Saturday! Saturday is derived directly from Saturn, even in English, Sāturni diēs in Latin. Monday, Lunes, diēs Lūnae, Moon. They thought the moon was a planet, right? Martes, Mars, but Tuesday in English is from Germanic roots as is Wednesday. Thursday, from Viking's Thor (roughly the equivalent to the Roman god Jupiter), but the more romantic languages use a more direct derivation, such as Jueves(ES), Jeudi(FR). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday
In any case I meant simply to use that to contrast the numbering of the days of the week, as is done in Portugese, as relatively unusual, and which they do except for Saturday and Sunday. I wasn't aware that Chinese use numbers for days. Figures, as I can't say it is illogical. Thanks. So we can infer that the Portugese borrowed the numbering system from the Chinese. It could be an alternative fact like many so popular these days, right?

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

OK, not English Saturday. You're saying Spanish "sabado" is from sabbath, which is not from Saturn. Reasonable. I can go with that. There were many Jews living in Andalucia at the time and quite a few Spanish words are almost, if not exactly Arabic and perhaps Ladino words as well.

So from where did the Portugese get the numbered days thing? Got to have been the Basques.

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

RE: Portuguese language, is the fourth more talked in the world.

(OP)

From Wikipedia

"Portuguese evolved from the medieval language, known today by linguists as Galician-Portuguese, Old Portuguese or Old Galician, of the northwestern medieval Kingdom of Galicia and County of Portugal.

Spoken area of Galician-Portuguese (also known as Old Portuguese or Medieval Galician) in the kingdoms of Galicia and León around the 10th century, before the separation of Galician and Portuguese
It is in Latin administrative documents of the 9th century that written Galician-Portuguese words and phrases are first recorded. This phase is known as Proto-Portuguese, which lasted from the 9th century until the 12th-century independence of the County of Portugal from the Kingdom of León, which had by then assumed reign over Galicia.

In the first part of the Galician-Portuguese period (from the 12th to the 14th century), the language was increasingly used for documents and other written forms. For some time, it was the language of preference for lyric poetry in Christian Hispania, much as Occitan was the language of the poetry of the troubadours in France. The Occitan digraphs lh and nh, used in its classical orthography, were adopted by the orthography of Portuguese, presumably by Gerald of Braga,[19] a monk from Moissac, who became bishop of Braga in Portugal in 1047, playing a major role in modernizing written Portuguese using classical Occitan norms.[20] Portugal became an independent kingdom in 1139, under King Afonso I of Portugal. In 1290, King Denis of Portugal created the first Portuguese university in Lisbon (the Estudos Gerais, which later moved to Coimbra) and decreed for Portuguese, then simply called the "common language", to be known as the Portuguese language and used officially."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_languag...

luis


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