×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Udate on "traffic light engineer".
6

Udate on "traffic light engineer".

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Good article and great news.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I like the public dressing down of the Board by the Judge.
Hopefully they will finally take this to heart.
A few decades ago, the Oregon board had a big problem with a company called
something like domestic engineers which was a maid service.

Hydrae

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Quote (article)

Specifically, his formula takes into account the time required for drivers to slow down if they are turning at an intersection.

Do US cameras catch you if you're still in the intersection when the light turns red? Entering the intersection after the light turns red (rather than still being in the intersection) is what triggers them here and I don't think that driving slowly to turn would be an excuse. If you're already slowing down to turn, you'd be better able to stop than if you were going straight, unless the yellow is really short.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I thought his analysis also had determined that the length of the yellow lights were not appropriate at certain rates of speed, i.e. the light changed to red too fast. But perhaps I'm just thinking about how locally where I am all amber lights are the same duration, regardless of it being a 50 km/hr or an 80 km/hr zone.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

In California, at least based on what I was told in 'traffic school' some 35 years ago (got a ticket my first year after moving to California - have only gotten one since) and that is that you're NOT allowed to 'enter' an intersection after the light turns RED. However, as long as your front tires were over the line indicating the edge of the cross lane, you're OK. Note that while some of the larger cities here use red-light cameras, they are often so inaccurate that if you challenge them in court, the driver often wins. Also, in order for the ticket to be legal, the camera must capture a clear image of BOTH the driver's face AND the license plate.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Red light cameras around here will net you a ticket regardless of it capturing your face... license plate is enough. Of course, there are no points on your license, but the fines can be stiff and they get attached to the car... so don't let lead-foot friends drive it while you're out of town.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

In California, only the driver can be ticketed for a moving violation. Now if the car is unsafe or something fails to meet regulation or the plates are expired, than the ticket goes to the owner.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I know this is primarily a US conversation, but you get off light. In Australia, if you trigger a red light camera or a fixed speed camera, a fine arrives in the mail to the registered owner, with a photo showing your plate and location. Points on the license of the owner, and to change that, you have to prove it by way of statutory declaration.

As well, we have random breath testing (booze buses). No reason required.

The latest, in Queensland, is a $1000 fine and four points for holding a mobile phone while driving.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

(OP)
That is because we have a Constitution that places the burden of proof on the government rather than the citizen.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Sure, how's that working out? We got 50% higher drunk driving involved fatalities than Australia, and that's with a lower BAC threshold in Australia.

https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/Alcoh...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Where I am, it's quite similar to Australia apparently, except we do not get points on the registered owner's license for a camera ticket. But the random breathalyzer and the fines for distracted driving are similar.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

JohnRBaker, Some states, including Oregon and apparently CA, require you to stop on yellow if it is safe to do so (e.g., you're far enough that you don't have to slam on the brakes to stop before entering the intersection, a semi isn't tailgating you, etc.). In NY, you can enter the intersection on yellow, if it's safe to do so. I think I prefer the stop on yellow rule.

My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5

Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. - http://xkcd.com/319/

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Quote:

apparently CA, require you to stop on yellow if it is safe to do so

Requirements and actualities are often very disparate things, particularly in protected left turns. They already slowed down to make the turn, yet, my light turns green and lefties are still crossing 3 lanes to finish their turns.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Quote:

As well, we have random breath testing (booze buses). No reason required.

We have similar stateside. Legally law enforcement cannot stop an individual without probable cause but they get around it by setting up random checkpoints where they stop everyone passing along a given stretch of highway. Mostly they catch petty crimes like not having proof of insurance in the vehicle or expired licenses and registration but occasionally they'll get a DUI or other felony. Personally I object to all of it, particularly when fines go directly into the dept's budget.

Quote:

Note that while some of the larger cities here use red-light cameras, they are often so inaccurate that if you challenge them in court, the driver often wins.

In many states today the driver automatically loses by going to court as even when proven innocent they still have to pay a hefty court fee.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I always thought the case was weird. It's not like he started an engineering firm and tried to sell advice to a city representing himself as a PE. Lot's of professor's and PHD's aren't licensed.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

In most states red light camera fines are not moving violations, because there is no one to testify on behalf of the state.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

In California, red-light violations, no matter how they're 'detected', carry a fine and points against your license, which is why it's imposed on the driver and not the owner of the vehicle, hence the need for a clear shot of the driver's face.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Good to hear the case was settled properly. The Oregon board was over stepping so far it was ridiculous.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Just to be clear; the update is regarding ITE's acceptance of Jarlstrom's work. The court case is old news.
But if you wish to get into old news, the board enforced Oregon law as written. Do you expect some volunteer engineers to overrule the legislature? The judge actually re-wrote the law to make it acceptable, although the Oregon Revised Statutes have not changed. See page 23.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

As the judge made clear, the ORS is overly broad and infringes on free speech. The ORS essentially means basically, ANYONE doing ANYTHING requiring "engineering education" to create a "design." is in violation of the law, including engineering teachers and students. If the Board were seriously enforcing the law "as written," they should be prosecuting every engineering student in Oregon when they turn in homework. The fact that they don't clearly means the law is overly broad and stupidly written. Even if you designed something for your backyard, and required any sort of calculation, you'd violate the law "as written."


Quote (https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/o...)


672.005 Additional definitions. As used in ORS 672.002 to 672.325, unless the context requires otherwise:
(1) “Practice of engineering” or “practice of professional engineering” means any of the following when done for others:
(a) Performing a service or creating an original work requiring engineering education, training and experience.
(b) In connection with utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works or projects, whether private or public, applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to services or original works such as:
(A) Consultation;
(B) Investigation;
(C) Evaluation;
(D) Planning;
(E) Design; and
(F) Services during construction, manufacture or fabrication for the purpose of ensuring compliance with specifications and design.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Quote:

(1) “Practice of engineering” or “practice of professional engineering” means any of the following when done for others:

The bold part should limit when the work can be called professional engineering. He wasn't asked or commissioned to do the studies.

Besides, the board having a fairly broad ability to enforce when necessary and doing rather silly borderline vindictive enforcement are two different things.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Ah, yes, but his wife is an "other," isn't she? She is, so technically he overstepped if you really want to read it word for word - which is ridiculous. Perhaps adding "for compensation" would be a worthwhile addition.


RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I'm torn on this. On the one hand, it's such a stretch to take it that way that I want to agree with LionelHutz. The board needs teeth so they can use them when the time is right and people need to use some sense interpreting this. But, on the other hand, lawyers exist (to the detriment of society, more often than not it seems). And the board apparently doesn't have the sense to know when it's inappropriate to use said teeth.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

It hasn't been a stretch for the Oregon board, by all accounts. They apparently relished gnashing and biting with their teeth, even though a reasonable person might have reasonably concluded that this was a one-off and could have been left alone.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/...
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/01/state-boar...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Quote:


ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties) do not apply to the following:

(6) The performance of engineering work by a person, or by full-time employees of the person, provided:

(a) The work is in connection with or incidental to the operations of the person; and

(b) The engineering work is not offered directly to the public.

I would offer that he was clearly operating under the industrial exemption as the work was for his own purposes and not offered to the public.

Beyond that, if its acceptable to title oneself an engineer when working in their niche and illegal to use the title outside of that niche, then OR needs to start pursuing PEs offering services outside their licensure ala SEs offering HVAC and electrical routing. They should also review state and college employees working/teaching outside their niche, and while they're at it should also review to ensure those employees actually have the required four years of experience outside academia.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

But he, in fact, "offered directly to the public," his engineering work when he sought/got interviews with local media. That specific clause essentially says that any unlicensed engineering work cannot be "offered directly to the public" without violating the law, so any publication of technical articles would be in violation and enforcement of the law would be an infringement of the authors' first amendment rights.

Obviously, Oregon doesn't seem particularly concerned about this gross violation of the Constitution.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I don't see it that way. So long as he made clear his qualifications (or lack thereof) and published it as an opinion, I don't see a violation. That would apply even if he said "I am an engineer" so long as he added "but my area of expertise is not in traffic planning or control" or something similar.

If he attempted to publish a white paper giving direction on the design of traffic signals and led people to believe that he was, in fact, an engineer and subject matter expert, then I'd say the Board would be within their rights to punish him for it.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I don't believe you're reading that correctly IR, otherwise the majority of technical papers, resumes, and product advertisements in OR are illegal. He did not offer to work for the public, he simply publicized his work like many other non-PEs do annually. I'd wager his regular business is advertised in a similarly public manner, showing his engineering work and capabilities publicly but not soliciting the public for engineering services.

Regardless, violating Constitutional/basic human rights is massively unethical and any board member voting to do so should be required to surrender their positions and licenses.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

"The performance of engineering work by a person" --> he performed an analysis

The engineering work is not offered directly to the public. --> he publicized (offered to the public) the analysis (engineering work)

He violated the statute as written; this is, as you said, why the board pro(per)secuted him. Nowhere does it require that a solicitation occur or that monies exchange hands.

I don't see anything that would exempt engineering articles or books.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I think the difference was he didn't publish his analysis in some obscure (to the board) journal or magazine; he went to publicly accessible media to show his analysis and repeatedly claimed to be an "engineer," specifically, in my opinion to thumb his nose at the board. I think the main reason he was persecuted was because publicly flouted the statute, as opposed to quietly flouting it in a trade or engineering magazine. He basically decided, somewhere, sometime, to pick this fight with the board.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

What a thankless job. The volunteer board gets spanked by the judge, the attorney general, free speech rags, and eng-tips for their reasonable interpretation of the statute they're trying to uphold. Any licensing board members among the eng-tips folks here throwing stones? The board made adjustments and has moved on.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Plenty of volunteers work hard to do their job with proper "intent" in mind... and some just love having the power of being able to tell others "no". I'll let everyone decide on their own which group of volunteers are being described here.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

View it how you will, but ultimately they chose to interpret and enforce a statute in an unethical manner. This is no different than someone in the military or civilian law enforcement choosing to obey an unjust/illegal order, except in this case the board got away with it. How the politicos wrote the statute is irrelevant as ultimately two decisions need to be made by the enforcement agency - how do I interpret? and do I enforce?

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

As a P.E. in Oregon, I can tell you that the OSBEELS board and employees DO NOT interpret the statutes. They follow them as written. I have learned this through several interactions with them. The court found that the statutes in question were written with too wide a scope and needed to be amended. Thanks for the link, stevenal - I hadn't seen that yet.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Not realizing which words in which combinations can be regulated and which are free speech prior to a judge's ruling is unethical? Luckily there's a process for dealing with these ethically challenged engineers: report them to the board.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Maths is restricted by law. I thought this was America...

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I read the OSBEELS statement that stevenal posted. The second-last paragraph is key. They didn't stop to consider whether what they - public servants - were doing was in the public interest. Xnuke suggested that's how they've operated for some time.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Quote:

public servants - were doing was in the public interest.

Therein lies the rub; you have, often, public service zealots who studiously follow the letter of the law, and ignore the raison d'être of the law. As stated in the Oregon law, the intent is to safeguard life, health and property, so regardless of what the other parts of the law say, there's room for selective enforcement, unless you have zealots that want to use every opportunity to send messages to the cowering masses to not mess with the board. I mean, if they're going to persecute some poor schmuck over revealing the arcane and mystical engineering maths to the general public, just think what they'd to to a real scofflaw. Zealots tend to ignore the greater good and drill down to the minutiae.

Quote (https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/o...)

672.020 Practice of engineering without registration prohibited; seal required. (1) In order to safeguard life, health and property, no person shall practice or offer to practice engineering in this state unless the person is registered and has a valid certificate to practice engineering issued under ORS 672.002 to 672.325.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

Yes, if you asked the people who originally wrote the law why text such as "done for others" and "offered directly to the public" are in the law, I would suspect the response would be along the lines of it being written that way to avoid loophole type arguments. People will find ways to argue that they aren't practicing engineering if the definition for practicing engineering is too specific.

RE: Udate on "traffic light engineer".

I actually had our now no longer working with us Division Manager place that ruling in the lunch room because there was a lot of talk about him signing stamped professional work as "Chief Engineer". The Chief Engineer position no longer existed. It was replaced with the "Division Manager" position with all degree and licensing requirements removed. But the work flow was never changed and still required the review and approval of the "Chief Engineer".

It was basically a legacy that shouldn't exist anymore but he really loved calling himself "chief engineer".

I took the article and wrote on it in my best penmanship

'If you actually read the ruling what matters is context. If you have an engineering degree and are talking about engineering in general you are not representing yourself as a professional engineer to a reasonable person. If you are running an engineering division at a major utility and calling yourself the "chief engineer" now a reasonable person could wrongly believe that you are a professional engineer.

Its like calling yourself Dr. Dre at a rap studio vs. calling yourself Dr. Dre at a hospital. '

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members! Already a Member? Login


Resources

White Paper - How ESI is Helping Move New Medical Device Product to Market Quicker & More Cost Effic
Early Supplier Involvement has long been a strategy employed by manufacturers to produce innovative products. Now, it almost seems like a necessity. Because decisions made in the design phase can positively affect product quality and costs, this can help add value to OEM bottom lines. This white paper will discuss many facets of ESI, including why it’s so valuable today, what challenges limit the benefits of ESI, how cost is impacted, and more. Download Now
White Paper - Moving to a Driverless Future
This white paper describes what we see as the best practices to support a sustainable engineering process for autonomous vehicle design. It exposes how to use simulation and testing in common frameworks to enable design exploration, verification and validation for the development of autonomous cars at a system, software and full-vehicle level to drive a mature product development process for automated driving. Download Now
Research Report - How Engineers are Using Remote Access
Remote access enables engineers to work from anywhere provided they have an internet connection. We surveyed our audience of engineers, designers and product managers to learn how they use remote access within their organizations. We wanted to know which industries have adopted remote access, which software they are using, and what features matter most. Download Now

Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close