thread815-418158 Once bitten twice thread815-418158 Once bitten twice RRaghunath (Electrical) (OP) 12 Feb 20 05:06 thread815-418158: South Australia statewide electricity blackout. Once bitten twice shy! https://reneweconomy.com.au/wind-solar-projects-wa... RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice GregLocock (Automotive) 12 Feb 20 06:14 The main issue (I think) is that solar farm operators think that their responsibility ends at the fusebox (interconnector) on their farm, and that getting the power to where it is needed should be paid for by the consumer. Not surprisingly consumers have a different view on this. Just because you've got some cheap and sunny land to build on doesn't mean it makes sense to run a big piece of wire out to it. Cheers Greg Locock New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice FacEngrPE (Mechanical) 13 Feb 20 01:53 Network stability in a power system is a hard to explain subject. In Virginia the same issue was created with the retirement of the Yorktown Power Station (1,141 megawatts). The solution was installation of a 500kV bulk power river crossing. Risk was that the local load would exceed the transmission systems stability limit (but not the thermal limit). The alternative to adding transmission capacity was rolling blackouts on the hottest days of the year. https://www.dominionenergy.com/company/electric-pr... https://www.nao.usace.army.mil/Missions/Regulatory... If you read the links you will find the project is built and operating, but still in lawsuits over permitting. Fred RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice human909 (Structural) 13 Feb 20 09:33 Quote (GregLocock )The main issue (I think) is that solar farm operators think that their responsibility ends at the fusebox (interconnector) on their farm, and that getting the power to where it is needed should be paid for by the consumer. Well their responsibility DOES end at the fusebox. It is the transmission line owners and operators as well AEMO's responisibility to ensure that the capacity of transmission lines is suitable for the demand and the supply. If transmission capacity isn't suitable for supply they shouldn't be giving the goahead for the additional supply. A nice map to play with here: https://www.aemo.com.au/aemo/apps/visualisations/m... RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice hokie66 (Structural) 13 Feb 20 11:32 So who makes these decisions as to where to put wind and solar installations? The AEMO or the transmission line owners? Or just anyone who has a big field or a windy ridge? RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice IRstuff (Aerospace) 13 Feb 20 15:25 I think that question is more involved than that, since there's also insolation and actual availability of the land. Obviously, though, there's no way to force the utility to install cables and there's no way for a utility to force someone to install a farm. There has to a mutual desire and benefit. TTFN (ta ta for now) I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice JG2828 (Electrical) 13 Feb 20 18:55 Quote (hokie66)So who makes these decisions as to where to put wind and solar installations? The AEMO or the transmission line owners? Or just anyone who has a big field or a windy ridge? Not sure about Australia, but in California you have to run it through CAISO. They have a process you need to follow here: http://www.caiso.com/planning/Pages/GeneratorInter... Here is the application approval queue: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw... RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice dik (Structural) 15 Feb 20 20:59 Are you obligated to interconnect? Dik RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice hokie66 (Structural) 15 Feb 20 21:12 Not sure what you mean, dik. Why would you build a solar power station, without intending to connect it to the grid? RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) 15 Feb 20 21:35 Because there seems to be a huge number of countries that actually penalise people producing their own power. The power production is MAFIA setup that brings a load of poo down on the home owner if they want to. A lot of US states its in the bag and its extremely hard to produce sync Ac to top up your house never mind feed in. So people run separate circuits with various dodgy interconnects. I own two homes in countries next to each other. One I do make shite loads of money to be grid tied and its economic enough to have a 21.5 Kw solar farm attached to the grid. 20 km down the road and its virtually impossible to get grid tied and it to be cost effective. You get penalised at every point in the proceedings. To the point that all couriers will refuse to deliver battery's in country because they know that even intra EU that the movement will be spotted and a load of crap will ensue. Basically the local grid providers hold all the green power grants plus hydro carbon credits and they really don't want anyone producing. And it goes to government levels that this status quo is maintained. And even if you managed to walk the maze to get grid tied and sell on the Nordic power market you will get 4 blokes who have heavy Russian accents visiting you discussing your contact explaining that you need to pay a premium to the grid payable in cash to them every month. If you don't want too expect your house to burn down. The local police won't touch it because its all through the local presidents wife's family. RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice hokie66 (Structural) 15 Feb 20 23:11 That's another story, Alistair. What was being discussed here is a large array, many hectares, of solar collectors forming a solar power station. Planning coordination is the problem for connecting to the high voltage transmission grid. RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice 1503-44 (Petroleum) 19 Feb 20 22:01 "Not surprisingly consumers have a different view on this. Just because you've got some cheap and sunny land to build on doesn't mean it makes sense to run a big piece of wire out to it." Exactly. And those projects that don't make market sense are soon washed ou, not making it past FEED stages. Wherever a comodity is available, it won't be marketable if the cost of producing and delivering it runs it up over the market price. Thus in a free market both producer and transporter must agree on each of their respective risks and costs before committing to construct their respective portions of any kind of project in their combined effort to deliver the product at competitive prices. Consumers of the products must generally expect to pay for all of those associated costs of production, storage, transportation, delivery, cost of sales and risk amortatization, if they do indeed wish to purchase such products. If they don't, one of the parties underestimated their risk and must accept the consequences. Typical negotiations between all the parties involved will normally set out terms that fall within all market constraints even before getting to permit phases. The ultimate consumer of the goods generally pays all costs involved, unless there is some regulatory decision to the contrary (add that to the risk). Otherwise known as "There is no free lunch". So, if there is a far away sunny space with a solar farm on it, there probably was a big piece of wire already running nearby, or its a seller's market. RE: thread815-418158 Once bitten twice MDEAus (Mechanical) 24 Feb 20 06:34 Dik, There is a few mines going solar with no need to interconnect to the main grid (Vast distance makes it unfeasible). The national grid doesn't even cover every state. I think a large proportion of projects are planned close to existing transmission lines. For example there is a large solar farm and battery storage planned near Gympie QLD which is practically under the transmission lines(350MW Solar, 1000MW/4000MWh Storage). AEMO Update on South Australia "Islanding" At the time of the "islanding" of SA from the national engergy market it was supplying power to Victoria, when the lines went down the frequency rise was arrested by the Hornsdale Power Reserve. Over the course of the next few weeks the SA grid was supplying the Portland Aluminium Smelter in Vic (500MW) Which was supplied via the Mortlake Power Station (566MW Open Cycle Gas-fired Generator). While solar and wind capacities wouldn't have been able to handle the smelter itself the event proved the worth of the power reserve as a grid stabilisation tool. During a high frequency incident it acts as a load and during a low frequency it injects power. It had already usurped some of the gas generators market share for ancillary services by acting on much quicker timescales than a gas generator can physically act to provide the ancillary services. There was also suggestions that gas generators were waiting as long as possible to bid on ancillary services thus driving up prices overall but that could be purely speculation.