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Tesla Autopilot Update
3

Tesla Autopilot Update

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I see this statement in the article-
"Some critics have said it's past time for NHTSA to stop investigating and to take action, such as forcing Tesla to make sure drivers pay attention when the system is being used".
How the hell do you do that? I guess you could play 'Love Shack' over and over, that should keep them from falling asleep.

Brad Waybright

It's all okay as long as it's okay.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I wonder what the number of fatal accidents of Tesla drivers not using the "autopilot" feature is compared the the number while using it. Or can it not be turned off?

Andrew H.
www.mototribology.com

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Autopilot operation has to be activated manually - it's just like setting cruise control in a normal car.

I haven't driven a Tesla but I have driven a couple of rental Toyota cars with their "safety sense" system which includes distance-keeping cruise control and active lane-keeping assistance. It will not let you go hands-off for more than a couple of seconds before it starts giving warnings to hold the steering wheel. I did not push my luck to see what would happen if I ignored them.

Meanwhile, despite Tesla offering CYA warnings about always having to pay attention while using Autopilot, it is not hard to find photos in Tesla's own website showing no hands on the steering wheel. Scroll down. First picture. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/autopilot

And I'm sure plenty of people misunderstand the phrase "full self-driving capability" (scroll down further) without reading the fine print.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Driving in autopilot with your hands on the wheel sounds like using cruise control with your foot on the gas.

Brad Waybright

It's all okay as long as it's okay.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Nevertheless, the software is still defective, if the speculations about the Gardena crash are correct. Tesla's lane following routine is extremely dumb, and was implicated in the Silicon Valley crash as well. In the latter case, another Tesla owner drove the exact same stretch of road and their Tesla likewise veered toward a concrete barrier because it was following lane markers on only one side of the lane, and the speculation is that in the Gardena incident, the Tesla followed an exit ramp lane marker and left the freeway at freeway speed.

The stupidity comes from the fact that the lane-following routine ignores both the map navigation function as well as detected cars from the proximity detectors. In the Silicon Valley case, the lane following routine should have noted that the lane direction was not consistent with either the fact that the freeway turned nor the fact that all the surrounding cars were going in a different direction than the Tesla. In the Gardena case, assuming that the speculation is correct, the routine likewise ignored the fact that its map navigation would have known there was an exit lane. Clearly, if that's true, then Tesla has done nothing to improve the lane following routine in nearly two years.

The label "Autopilot" should be stricken from Tesla's vocabulary, permanently, because people clearly think it means something totally different. Of course, the issue is that semi-automation is possibly much worse for the driver than no automation; people cannot maintain vigilance if there's no active engagement required. With cruise control, you still need to actively steer the car and avoid the other cars on the road, but simply requiring you to monitor the system with no active problem to work will cause loss of attentiveness in around 15 minutes.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I'm pretty sure I'd fall asleep well before 15 minutes was up. I hope, but doubt, that somebody at NHTSA or IIHS is doing the correct analysis on the safety statistics of these systems, rather than Musk's bland assertions that ignore all factors other than miles driven.

Read this and weep. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/iihs-examines-dri...

None of the lane keepers really worked properly, although the Tesla 3 was pretty good on flat roads. It would be interesting to know how a human driver would measure up in the same tests.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

In the rental Corolla (with Safety Sense) that I drove last week, I tried the lane-keeping function - it can readily be turned on or off, independently of the cruise control - and found it annoying. It only works properly if there is a readily apparent painted line on both sides of the car. If the paint is worn or covered with dust or debris, or if there is a guardrail but no painted line, or if there is a drop-off into a ditch but no painted line, it doesn't work. But this system makes no attempt to lull the driver into inattention.

Re encouraging the driver to pay attention - I don't think this is possible without actually giving the driver something to do. You can require the driver to keep in contact with the steering wheel as a proxy for paying attention. Most of the lane-keeping systems do this, although seemingly Tesla allows much longer periods without contact. You can also use a camera to watch the driver's eyes as a proxy for paying attention. GM SuperCruise does this but that system is also geo-fenced to operate only on roads in which its proper operation has been validated ... which Tesla should have the technology to do (the cars all have navigation and are connected to the internet whenever it's available), but they don't.

That article linked to above, is scary.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I'm beginning to think we're going to have to install some sort of machine-visible devices (road signs and lane markings) along roads before general purpose AVs become a realistic proposal. The DAT people I chat with say that they are making good progress and that we ain't seen nothing yet.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

[sarcasm=TRUE]
I live in a place called Canada.
Those who have heard of this place may have also heard that it snows here.
People who have seen snow, quickly notice that snow is white, and tends to be opaque.
Canadians who want lane-keeping systems in their cars are, IMO, insane.
For 8 months of the year that system could kill me.

www.sparweb.ca

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Well, that's one of the cases I was thinking of. If the roadside system continually broadcast the centre of each lane's location as a series of points then driving down the road merely becomes an exercise in dead reckoning from absolute position updates. They'd have to be quite frequent. Differential GPS should be accurate enough for that.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Good luck with installing those along every unpaved country lane!

"Level 4" systems that only work on motorways and other such main roads, I can see that happening.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Tesla claims full autonomy coming later this year....

That'll be interesting

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Differential GPS accuracy ranges from centimeter level to 5 meters, depending on satellites in view and obstructions. At its best, DGPS could locate to an individual traffic lane, but at its worst, it would span almost 3 lanes.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

"Just because it is called Autopilot doesn't mean it is an autopilot. It isn't."

Maybe pilots are a little more diligent in their use of it... autopilot works pretty well... and they have a couple of added degrees of freedom.

dik

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

The base station is precisely the issue; the standard base station has ever worsening performance beyond ~100 km, so the country, or even the world would need a truckload of base stations to get meaningful accuracies. Note also that the base station needs to have RF access to the DGPS receiver to get the corrections to the receiver, which makes DGPS exceedingly difficult in the mountains or even heavy forests; on one trip, even my ordinary GPS couldn't get a fix because of tree cover, so that's another problem. SBAS, which is the satellite based version of DGPS, does not have cm-level accuracy, more like 2.5-m, and even then, it has similar issues with mountains, forests, and urban canyons.

Airplane autopilots have it much easier, I think; there aren't road shoulders, concrete barriers, etc. to contend with, nor are there 100 other airplanes flying on the same course only a few feet apart from each other. Moreover, collision avoidance is done at multiple levels, assuming you have the correct transponders, and the warnings have much more margin than with cars, and you have certain protocols for maneuvering. I suspect that if flying cars ever actually got off the ground, pilots would find their autopilots as woefully inadequate as Tesla's.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I rent cars all the time, and use every feature available. I find the driver assist features to be interesting but not infallible. Each car model is different. They are getting better, especially in the last year or two. Some constantly weave back and forth within the lane, which kept me awake especially when traffic is nearby, this is particularly scary on roads with oncomming traffic. Others are smoother but experience a "DUH" moment when the lane line just dissapears at an exit. Most will try to take every friggin exit - it's amlost comical. Most seem uncomfortable going in a straight line and need a line to hover near. None anticipate curves by looking ahead like my driving instructor taught. Most give you a bag of shit when you take your hand off the wheel (but who would EVER DO THAT???) Could it keep me alive if I drifted off or got distracted? Yes. Should I plan to be distracted or sleepy? NO.

My general take is that "autopilot" is poorly suited to your typical half-assed USA drivers who text, yell, comb, sip, read, snooze, get lost, have poor eyesight, go too fast, go too slow, tailgate, apply lipstick, play with their guns, search for buttons, wear high heels, drink, light cigarettes, pour hot coffee in their laps, flick ashed, play music for their neighbors (shall I go on???). It is at best a poor marketing gimmick and at worst a method of suicide by car. I'd say that your average driver who is at best marginally capable of reading signs and is currently driving distracted anyway won't be improved by lane assist but the better cruise control will help us all.

Adaptive cruise control was more consistent and useful, I have high hopes for this feature improving traffic flow in congested areas.

Oh ya - if you can't park or back your boat trailer, you should have your license revoked.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

(OP)
Re the snow issues- in the past, we would periodically drive through the Eisenhower Tunnel at Thanksgiving or Christmas break when it would be snowy. A frequent situation then was that there would be three marked lanes underneath all that, but actual traffic would be two "snow lanes" centered in the three actual lanes. So any system that detected the "real" lane would not work so well there.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Famously, "A.I. is hard..."

...especially outdoors.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I fly aircraft.

I also fly ones that can take us to 90 ft off the ground with auto pilot in doing 110 knots.

I have to do 8 hours training every 6 months to deal with "George" screwing it up. which I might add it does regularly.

16 years experience means I never trust an aircraft autopilot.

trust a car auto pilot that cost under 1 million.... they cant get it right on a 25 million aircraft.....

And lets not mention the 737 Max

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Re snow lanes versus real lanes ... I live in Canada. That happens all the time during the inevitable delay between when snow starts falling and when the plows come around. There is no way to tell under a layer of snow where the real lane is, so people just work it out the best they can at the time.

Matter of fact, it's like that outside right now as I type this.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Go to YouTube and watch all the Tesla non-fatal autopilot crashes as well as the Autopilot "oops" videos. It becomes very clear the system is just a half-assed lane line follower. Anyone (Musk) who claims a system like that is months or even a year away from full autonomy is full of it.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Quote (LionelHutz)

Go to YouTube and watch all the Tesla non-fatal autopilot crashes as well as the Autopilot "oops" videos. It becomes very clear the system is just a half-assed lane line follower. Anyone (Musk) who claims a system like that is months or even a year away from full autonomy is full of it.

Well to be fair, did he claim it would not cause death and mayhem while being fully autonomous? It may very well gain consciousness and force the human race into servitude for the purpose of painting orderly and clearly visible lines on all roads as well as clear all snowfall as to not obscure the roads in the great white north; therefore, saving us from ourselves.....robocop

Andrew H.
www.mototribology.com

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Quote:

It becomes very clear the system is just a half-assed lane line follower.

That was my point, earlier. There's ZERO integration of the line following with anything else in the system that could mitigate some of the "oops" cases. Moreover, Musk's insistence on not having lidar places a much heavier burden on the vision system, and from stuff we do at work, it's clear that any AI vision system in use is way dumber than that of any 18-month old. And, that ignores the fact that even a 3-yr old understands that an object going behind an obscuration still exists and needs to be accounted for. Tesla's and Uber's vision systems promptly forgets anything that "disappears" even when something else "appears" in its place.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Because apparently there are software programmers not system engineers running the show.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Or worse, egomaniacs running the show.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

I've got Adaptive Cruise control on my car and it's great. I can imagine sometime in the future hook up of these from one car to the next and a virtual road train developing.

But they only look one car in front.

To avoid rapid braking ( the ACC brakes as well) I frequently turn it off and gently slow down when I can see a whole bunch of red lights in the distance. The ACC wouldn't / can't/ won't see that so the result would be much more rapid braking and potentially more collisions.

The lane control thing I tried out on a car for a few days and found it dreadful. Not sure if this is more of an issue on the long straight boring interstates in the US where people are more likely to fall asleep but I've never had that on the more windy european motorways. Plus changing lanes becomes a fight with the steering wheel unless you indicate and make use of the 5 second window of no "lane assist". Solving a problem which doesn't exist.

As to all the other autopilot stuff Tesla goes on about.

Like the 737 Max issue, this will get stuck in the half fly by wire / full autonomous driver conumdrum aka "a little bit pregnant". It either is full auto or it isn't. Not this half and half rubbish we have now. Personally I can't see it getting approved anytime in the next decade and then only on certain strictly geo limited areas or types of road.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

The NTSB has identified apparent causes and made a number of recommendations, based on investigation of the March 2018 fatal crash. An abstract is available now and full report will follow. https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR2...

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

This nails it.

Quote:

“This tragic crash clearly demonstrates the limitations of advanced driver assistance systems available to consumers today,” said NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt. “There is not a vehicle currently available to US consumers that is self-driving. Period. Every vehicle sold to US consumers still requires the driver to be actively engaged in the driving task, even when advanced driver assistance systems are activated. If you are selling a car with an advanced driver assistance system, you’re not selling a self-driving car. If you are driving a car with an advanced driver assistance system, you don’t own a self-driving car,” said Sumwalt.


How much ability to effect change does the NTSB have these days? They gave recommendations. Is there an ability to force a change?

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Likely the marketing guys taking over from the engineering guys... just like the boardroom with Boeing, but different.

Dik

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Who in their right mind would ever think a car could be truly self driving in normal every day conditions other than George Jetson? What idiots the American sheep are!!! One generation believed everything their clergy told them, the next everything they heard on radio, the next everything they saw on TV, the next everything they read on the Internet. Except of course, science... Critical thinking is not taught in school. The circle Marketing-Idiots-Lawyers is a path for corporate profits and manipulators staying in power and getting rich. Nothing has changed since caveman days. Sometimes I wonder...

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

On the latter point, it's against the law in California, and there is signage telling drivers about this, so company policy is superfluous and encroaching on personal privacy, since the driver was driving their personal vehicle.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

IRS: "On the latter point, it's against the law in California, and there is signage telling drivers about this, so company policy is superfluous and encroaching on personal privacy, since the driver was driving their personal vehicle." Politicians never seem to learn that you cannot protect all people from stupidity by legislation... that's why they have Darwin awards.

Dik

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

IR Stuff, I thought it was interesting that the NTSB made such a point of company policies against using PED’s while driving too. In this case, while the deceased driver was using a personal vehicle he was also distracted by playing a game on his Apple-owned PED. Since the crash occurred while he was using his work-phone, perhaps the NTSB felt that companies (tech companies especially)should emphasize safety by having their own policies. They made a huge point of noting the NTSB rules on driving while using a PED.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Quote:

Politicians never seem to learn that you cannot protect all people from stupidity by legislation... that's why they have Darwin awards.

I think you miss a point. The law is also to protect the two people that might have died in that same accident because they were behind the nutter. If the Darwin awardees die in single-car accidents, that's one thing, but it's essentially involuntary manslaughter had either of the other two drivers died. Moreover, had the Tesla driver not died, but was seriously injured, they would have burdened someone's insurance, one way or another. This type of accident could have easily generated injuries that would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars that everyone else has to pay for. As it was, two other cars were probably totaled, so auto insurance sucked up those losses as well, and one of the other drivers was injured, and likely incurred lost work time and medical care.


TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Similarly, had the California DOT put up barrels or an energy absorbing device at a place that has, at least 3 times before, been hit by human controlled cars, no one else would have been involved. CALDOT designed an interchange that was unnecessarily and observably dangerous.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

No doubt... but, it's silly to try to legislate against stupidity...0.08 is there, and they still have DUIs.

Dik

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

But, the same argument applies; a 0.08 is a danger to EVERYONE else on the road with the sot. If you're going to get to higher than 0.08, you should do it at home, so that you can't fubar someone else's life. Too often, the drunk survives the crash and kills one or more people. If anything, the law is too lax. A first offense should do time, PERIOD.

There are already something like 2 million people who drive drunk at least once a month. That's 2 million bullets everyone else has to dodge.

The Yakuza have a method that's pretty effective; the offender loses a finger. There are very few Yakuza with more than one missing finger.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

IRS... good points

Dik

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Quote (IRStuff)

A first offense should do time, PERIOD.
Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but...

Plenty of drunk drivers have done significant time in jail... yet they continue to get drunk and drive. SWMBO and I enjoy watching Live PD, and hardly a show goes past where someone pulled over (often for failure to maintain lane, i.e., weaving) is drunk and has prior convictions for DUI. One guy we saw was released just that morning for DUI, and he was already at it again.

I'm all for stiffer penalties, but until that penalty for the first offense is death, there will always be folks who go back to their own vices.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

"I'm all for stiffer penalties, but until that penalty for the first offense is death, there will always be folks who go back to their own vices."

What if the penalty for DUI offenders was take away your license vehicle for one month for each offense. 3 offenses = 6 months without a license vehicle.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Wandering back to the topic at hand ...

Spotted today, on a section of motorway with snow blowing across it leading to slush built up between the lanes and occasionally across the whole road. And what do we have here, a Tesla Model 3 approaching from behind in the next lane. Hmm, driver is looking down, probably at a phone, with a hand kinda touching the steering wheel.

I'm pretty sure that system isn't designed to cope with slush and snow.

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Quote:

What if the penalty for DUI offenders was take away your license vehicle for one month for each offense. 3 offenses = 6 months without a license vehicle.

That's easy; they drive without. At some point, the punishment severity is too high to be practical. Given that so many people are living paycheck to paycheck, any perturbation to the ability to work sends them off to the poorhouse or onto the street, where they increase their burden society

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Tesla Autopilot Update

Quote (IFRs)

What if the penalty for DUI offenders was take away your license vehicle for one month for each offense. 3 offenses = 6 months without a license vehicle.
I had considered that, but all too often they end up driving someone else's car (something I'm still stunned happens as often as it does... NO ONE outside of my own family drives one of my cars unless it's an emergency!). Plenty of times I've seen someone pulled over on Live PD, only to find out their license is invalid. Instead of towing the car, the officers typically let someone come and pick the car up... but the car is often owned by a family member (or "friend"), not the actual driver.

Perhaps such a penalty would reduce the amount of people lending their vehicle to others, but that would be difficult for people who share a vehicle, etc.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

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