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Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...
8

Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

I am also glad that got resolved as it did. I'm all for protecting the title of professional engineer and similar protected professional titles, but the overreach of fining valid engineers who disciplines don't require professional licensure was getting absurd. For IRstuff and those who work in such industries I'm glad the "engineer" pushed back as hard as he did.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries https://americanconcrete.com/

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Good for him. Had a judge with good common sense, all too uncommon these days.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Yay! I can call myself an engineer in Oregon, anyways. We'll need to see how that shakes out for California, although I am in an exempt industry, but it's not clear whether the ruling by itself nullifies the comparable California statutes, or whether someone in California will need to sue and use the Oregon decision as a precedent.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Last I heard Microsoft had rename that acronym to be the more accurate Microsoft Certified Solutions Expert (MCSE).

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries https://americanconcrete.com/

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

When you Google MCSE, you get both the new and the old, which was Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. However, in California, "Systems Engineer" is not something that the PE board regulates and they have no test for it.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Glad to see common sense forced on to the Board,
and yes that is the board that I have my License from.

But my question is:
Did City of Beaverton adjust their traffic lights back to a reasonable timing?

Hydrae

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

4
You can't use the word "reasonable" with the name of any city on the west coast in the same sentence.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

I don't know about other places, but here in Wyoming if the light turns red while you're in the intersection, you ran the red light. His argument about the yellow needing to be longer to accommodate slowing down for a left turn wouldn't fly here.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

In California, as long as the light was NOT red when you entered (your front wheels crossed the white line) the intersection, you've not violated the law.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Quote (HotRod10)

His argument about the yellow needing to be longer to accommodate slowing down for a left turn wouldn't fly here.

Why?

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

As I said, wroggent, here the time the light is yellow does not account for the time it takes vehicles to clear the intersection. The light only has to be yellow long enough for the driver to be able to decelerate and stop from the posted speed after the light turns yellow, before it turns red. The time that it is yellow is dependent solely on the posted speed limit of the street or road, not the size of the intersection.

There may be some allowance for the intersection size in the delay between one direction turning red and the other direction turning green, but that is a separate issue from the one that was being argued.

Edit: I should add, even though that is the 'letter of the law', I have never known anyone to get a ticket because the light turned red while they were in the intersection.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

On the actual subject of the thread, I agree with the ruling - one does not need to be licensed to call oneself an engineer. Using the title 'engineer' to bolster his argument to the public, while likely misleading, should not be cause for prosecution or fines. To do so sets a dangerous precedent, especially for those work in exempt industries. I think the Board levying a fine was an overreach, as regulating speech is beyond their purview. If they could have proven their case that he was indeed 'practicing' engineering, then the board would have had standing.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Here is a article on the controversy about entering a intersection for a left hand turn:
https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/traffic/rule...

I agree with this driver's education blog, but it is Canadian:
https://drivinginstructorblog.com/q-should-i-pull-...

And:
https://www.quora.com/In-which-U-S-states-is-it-il....

To stay on topic, I agree with the decision the judge made about the engineering board. They have been trying to regulate the English language, not the Profession.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

(OP)
From the prior thread:

Quote (stevenal)

I find it interesting that an attorney, presumably a member of the Oregon Bar, is arguing the matter this way.

From the ruling:

Quote (Beckerman)

The word “engineer,” however, is different than the
other title restrictions courts have upheld in the past. Unlike “M.D.” or “certified public
accountant,” there is no fixed meaning to the title “engineer.” On the contrary, there are many
different types of engineers. Courts have long recognized that the term “engineer” has a generic
meaning separate from “professional engineer,” and that the term has enjoyed “widespread usage
in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.”

So i guess that's the difference. I still wonder whether the M.D., CPA, or J.D. licensed in another jurisdiction may use the title in this one.

Suggest taking a cue from Europe and begin using a term like ingenieur to distinguish us from train drivers.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

If you must check which state you are in before you can legally speak, there is a problem.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Certainly, lawyers are subject to state laws, so someone licensed to practice law in California is required to get the same license for each state they wish to practice in.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

(OP)
And what constitutes practice? Say the California licensed attorney writes to the Oregon Engineering Board regarding yellow light timings in Beaverton using his/her Oregon vacation home return address, signing Esq. Legal free speech or misrepresentation?

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

"And what constitutes practice"

I was referring to practicing law, in that post, so either appearing in court, or giving legal opinions about the light, such as whether the city was breaking the law, although, it's likely that it would still be moot if there were no actual client, which is the distinction that law licenses have, as opposed to engineering licenses, where even without a client, you can be charged with practicing without a license.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

(OP)
Just by signing Esq, I would say he/she is bringing a legal question into it. Client might be self or spouse.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Surely a signature ending in your title (Esq, MD, PE, etc) doesn't equate to practicing in your given profession?

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Here is the article in the libertarian journal Reason. The article seems to accept that the term "professional engineer" is protected. We are arguing about what an "engineer" is.

--
JHG

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Quote (Compositepro)



If you must check which state you are in before you can legally speak, there is a problem.

The problem is that he was analyzing traffic signals AND identifying himself as an engineer. If he had analyzed traffic signals and claimed to be a housewife, the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying would have had nothing to object about. If I pontificate about stuff and claim to be a professional, I am establishing my credibility. The State Board has a point, even if they are overzealous about protecting the title.

--
JHG

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

"Surely a signature ending in your title (Esq, MD, PE, etc) doesn't equate to practicing in your given profession?"
Yes, it does, at least, in California, you are not allowed to call yourself a "PE" unless you are licensed in the locale you are using that title.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Drawoh, the judge just ruled against your point.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Compositepro,

No he didn't.

Quote (The article in Reason)


"The regulation of the title 'enginneer' (sic) is more burdensome than necessary to protect the public from the unlicensed practice of engineering," wrote Beckerman. "The record demonstrates that the threat to free expression is not merely hypothetical."

The key phrase here is "more burdensome than necessary". The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying has some authority to dictate who the engineering professionals are. They exceeded it.

--
JHG

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

I think that aside from the issue of free speech, is whether someone professing to be an engineer and providing engineering advice in front of a public body would be considered an expert witness. In most legal settings an engineering expert witness has to be a licensed professional engineer. In the case above, the person may have been trying to improve his status above what it actually is. A misdirection?

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

It seems a couple of issues involved are:

1) Was he purporting to be something he was not? Is he he allowed to call himself an engineer in a public setting, without being a licensed PE in the jurisdiction? The court said yes he is, and it seems we're all in agreement that the decision was correct. To have ruled otherwise would potentially put us all in a risky position, I think. If he did not have a degree in engineering, it would be a somewhat less straightforward debate.

2) Was he 'practicing engineering'? By some very broad definitions, you could say he was. I would say it's too broad of a definition, based on what I've read of his activities. I think it was an overreach by the Board to classify his actions as such.

Even if you view it as him acting as an expert witness for himself, I believe, in general, it's up to the judge or the jury to decide if someone purporting to be an expert in some matter before the court is really an expert. Opposing counsel can question their expertise, but I don't believe there are legal repercussions for the purported expert if the jury or judge doesn't believe them to be really an expert.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Quote:

Even if you view it as him acting as an expert witness for himself, I believe, in general, it's up to the judge or the jury to decide if someone purporting to be an expert in some matter before the court is really an expert. Opposing counsel can question their expertise, but I don't believe there are legal repercussions for the purported expert if the jury or judge doesn't believe them to be really an expert.

Exactly. Neither government nor courts are considered a public body, only private citizens are.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Why isn't more emphasis placed on the designations of being a P.E. or being Chartered? As an engineer, I have a much different expectation of someone and their abilities and responsibilities when they have those designations. If someone is unlicensed, I don't automatically make any assumptions about them. I have met old unlicensed engineers who struggled with simple lighting calculations and those well known in industry who never bothered to get license because it offered them little benefit where they were at.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Quote:

Edit: I should add, even though that is the 'letter of the law', I have never known anyone to get a ticket because the light turned red while they were in the intersection.

I had this great joke about congratulating Wyoming on finally getting stoplights, but then I decided it would be rude.

But just so you know, it was great.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Thanks for showing restraint, beej67. Couldn't be worse than getting serious questions from people in Minneapolis about whether we had indoor plumbing or rode horses to school in Wyoming.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

HotRod10,

The concrete jungle is way overrated. I would trade my car for a horse if I could.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

I was in Minneapolis for 4 years; didn't mind the city too much. The 'Minne-snow-ta' weather is another matter - it wasn't bad from the middle of April to the middle of May, but the other 11 months were either too hot and muggy or too cold and clammy, and the snow stays all winter. I'll take the wind here over that any day of the week.

No horses for me; I love my cars.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

HamburgerHelper -- because the public at large does not even know that engineering licensure is a thing, let alone the differences between any of the alphabet soup designations we use.

----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

(OP)

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Interesting story, stevenal. Think their strong apology to Alley is related to the chance (albeit a slim one) that he could end up in a political position that would affect the OSBEELS one day? Or maybe they just don't want to run afoul of the Oregon DOJ again...

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

Probably both.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries https://americanconcrete.com/

RE: Update on Oregon suit of man claiming to be an engineer...

(OP)

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