×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country
6

US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

(OP)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/energy-environment/...

The latest report commissioned by the US government (under the Trump administration) re-affirms the scientific consensus that climate change is happening and will inevitably affect the US, its infrastructure, and its economy. Inauspiciously released on Black Friday, the report is another warning bell that we need to move quickly and decisively to minimize the impending impacts.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Well, really, you'd hardly expect them to say anything else :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

(OP)
I agree; it's what happens when everyone agrees on a topic. It'll still be interesting to see how codes and standards are updated to incorporate new wind/flood/etc data in the coming years as the magnitude of the damage becomes more clear.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

I have seen at least one press report that describes this as a "White House report". I don't think so.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

(OP)
I believe it's similar to the report last year. The Trump admin commissioned a report on climate change and (much to their chagrin) it corroborates the scientific consensus that it's happening and will have negative impacts.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Yet the number of Cat 1 to 4 hurricanes making landfall has been generally falling since about 1960. The problem that the report no doubt glosses over is that there are more people living in hurricane prone areas and they have more stuff.

data http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/E23.html

graph 30 year simple moving average to the date shown, Cat1+ is top line cat2+ is the next one and so on down to Cat5+







Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Right or wrong, I think the theory of ever-worsening weather due to ACC does more damage to the cause than anything else. Every time there's a storm or drought bad enough to make national news, the same ignorant pundits are on the news spouting the same shallow narrative that they can't even explain. It's the boy who cried wolf ad infinitum. The credibility is non-existent. It's true that people tend to live in the now, but memories include more than the last week. Only an extraordinarily irrational person will be convinced of a global crisis based on one weather event. There are credible arguments to be made. They should make them. Abandon the threats of worse weather. We won't even know if the theory is valid for 50 years. Evidence so far is not convincing, but it's still somehow reported as an irrefutable fact. It's this hyperbole, blind belief in unproven theories, and total abandonment of logic that make it easy to breed and maintain skepticism.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

And never a single benefit due to the warming climate change stated either...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Most of us engineers, and most adults in general, can make up our own minds about climate change, the causes and consequences. What I find alarming is the brainwashing of the young which is taking place in schools, from primary to tertiary. Young impressionable minds are being filled with the politically correct religion of global warming. They are being taught that fossil fuels are evil, and that the use of same should cease immediately.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

You can't make up your own mind on a topic you aren't trained in / have no knowledge of!!

Imagine if you were in your college materials engineering class again and you told the professor that the textbook was full of trash. Wouldn't that be arrogant? To claim an entire field you know nothing about (as a student) is totally wrong and made up by kooks. Yet science is overwhelmingly telling you that anthropogenic climate change is happening and people are 'deciding for themselves' whether or not it is happening. It's extremely arrogant. It blows my mind.

If 97% of doctors believed that exercise was good for you, would be suspicious? Would you listen to the other 3%? What if you found out the other 3% were paid for by Netflix? Would you still 'believe' the 3% over the 97%?

Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories. Not believing in anthropogenic climate change is a conspiracy theory.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Nevertheless, there are possibly up to 16% of the US population that are unwilling to get their children vaccinated, in a situation which puts many children in mortal danger: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/201...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

"You can't make up your own mind on a topic you aren't trained in / have no knowledge of!!".

Sorry, but we can all have opinions. Possibly the "smarter" amongst us recongnise that we have limited knowledge and so the opinion is less well defendable than those few areas in life where we feel we are reasonably expert of have informed opinions. Possibly these also try to expand their knowledge, gathering opinions from both sides of the debate.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Arrogance is not reserved for one side of the climate change discussions...obviously.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

(OP)
The difference is yes, everyone can have opinions but that doesn't mean every opinion carries the same merit in a technical discussion. Like awhicker said, the people who actually study the subject are infinitely more qualified than the layperson, politician, or engineer not dedicated to environmental or climate studies.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

so we, the less informed, should accept whatever they say ?

and what of the contrary positions posed by other learned folks ?

oh, that's right, there's a consensus amongst "informed" opinion,
and every contrary opinion is "wrong".

yep, progress lies that way ...

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Global geoengineering/weather warfare/biological warfare programs are the greatest and most immediate threat currently faced by the human race short of nuclear cataclysm (a threat that climate engineering is also exacerbating by making Earth more vulnerable to solar flares, electric grid shutdown, and thus nuclear meltdown). The ongoing weather warfare assault is completely derailing the planet's climate systems, completely contaminating our air (all precipitation), our soils and waters. Geoengineering is also shredding the ozone layer. No ozone layer, no terrestrial life on Earth. From countless directions climate engineering is pushing the human race and all life on Earth toward mathematically certain near term total extinction. The greatest single leap we could take toward changing our current course of biosphere implosion is to expose and halt the geoengineering insanity.
One only has to look away from the phone for a second and look up. Solar Radiation Management programs and aerosol dispersing are alive and well. The latest goal and figures reported by the folks that spearhead these programs, are 20mm tons of nano particulates per year. Thats Aluminum, Barrium and strontium.
there are patents that exist for the application. the watch dog over these practices can be found at www.geoengineeringwatch.org

SJBoudreaux
www.machinetechservices.com

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

(OP)
Everyone who studies this agrees. Just because we're engineers and technical people doesn't mean we're experts in climate change. As a mechanical engineer, I defer to electrical engineers when appropriate. The same concept applies here.

If you're an expert on climate modeling and climate history, please publish a report to the contrary of every other climate change report. The scientific world would love to learn that the outlook isn't as bleak as it appears.

You can pontificate all you want, but the only people who have a contrary opinion are un-informed. There's no conspiracy to coverup anti-climate change reports, just like the earth isn't flat and vaccinations do work. Just because we're technical, intelligent people doesn't mean we (as engineers) fully understand how vaccines work. The same concept applies to climate change.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

"Everyone who studies this agrees." ... I don't think that is correct.

One of the issues is that there are (correctly IMHO) experts who disagree (at least question) with the ACC premise.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

(OP)
Define expert? As of now, 97% of climate scientists agree. There is not a single scientific body/group that disagrees. If you're referring to the random physicists, geologists, and other scientists who don't agree...frankly, they're not qualified.

Do we avoid using GPS because athletes believe the earth is flat? Of course not. That's hyperbole, but you get the idea.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

hokie66 - did you read the second link?

If not, you ought to read before linking.

If yes, why link to a post that is obviously so deliberately misleading?

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Of course I read it. Regardless of your position on climate change, the literature study done by John Cook was not a survey, as many people, I think including RVAmeche, assume with the 97% statement. "97% of climate scientists agree" is the deliberately misleading statement.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

So you don't think that counting the number of abstracts that "Explicitly endorses and quantifies AGW as 50+% ", and then equating that to the proportion of climate scientists who hold that opinion is deliberately deceptive?

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

There is indeed some deception in the numbers, whether created deliberately, ignorantly, or both. Browsing abstracts as a survey, as done by Mr Cook, is a funny way to show anything. But if you really want to confuse yourself, read this thread:

thread730-345352: Consensus Science

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

I would rather be on the safe side and do everything we can to prevent a potentially bleak future for our kids and grand kids. If we are all pulling in the same direction we can actually do something useful for humanity. Even if climate change fears turn out to be overblown, who cares? Worst case is we develop some breakthrough technologies and become more energy efficient, reduce pollution and increase global stability. But if the fears turn out to be valid, and the decision makers with power choose to be contrarians, well then we're screwed. I guess I just don't see much downside to operating on the assumption that the worst-case predictions are valid and likely to happen. It's just simple risk management.

I once did an analysis of a 2 ft by 2 ft louver being hit by a tornado-borne missile (telephone pole). The louver was on the exterior wall of the spent-fuel pool area in a nuclear plant. The hypothetical design scenario was that the pole would fly across the entire site, perforate the louver, then crash through the room and directly hit some safety-related equipment. The chances of that actually happening are minuscule, but everyone in the chain of command was on board with the due diligence being performed as a matter of routine risk management and regulatory compliance. I ask myself why we blithely spent thousands of ratepayer dollars doing that analysis but we squabble over the need to address a problem like climate change, with consequences a thousand-fold worse and that is an almost certain scenario in comparison. Is it that the scenario is just so overwhelming and depressing that people don't want to face it?

I respect people who don't blindly accept climate change as gospel, but what if you look at it not as a skeptic, but as a pragmatic manager of risk? does that change the calculus for you?





RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

"we blithely spent thousands of ratepayer dollars doing that analysis "

That's an easy one; there aren't any tornado deniers saying that tornadoes don't exist or that tornado-induced projectiles are myths perpetrated by money-seeking analysts.

Now, some people like to cherry pick their data to prove their point, so here's my cherry-pick, a 20-year running average of accumulated cyclonic energy (ACE) from the NOAA website cited earlier. Now, anything before 1960 is obviously limited by the lack of satellite imagery, but, nevertheless, we can see that there is a cyclical behavior, so studious cherry pickers can claim whatever they want. But, raw technical analysis says there's an upward trend, landfalls not withstanding.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

"Even if climate change fears turn out to be overblown, who cares?" ... well
(1) everyone who cares about how our government spends our money. This ACC is a huge, no HUGE, trough of money.
and (2) everyone concerned about the impact of our economy of work (etc) going elsewhere because of CC taxes (when other governments don't impose the same taxes).
and (3) everyone who doesn't like being "lied" to.

"I ask myself why we blithely spent thousands of ratepayer dollars doing that analysis but we squabble over the need to address a problem like climate change," ... well, the nuke business is extremely (and rightly) concerned with safety and is mandated to analyze the heck out of everything.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Even if we shift entires economic engines towards fighting climate change, isn’t it plausible that it will result in a net positive economic situation for the world in the long run? We currently pour trillions into defense which is an utter waste of energy as a species. If you pour half of that energy into something that actually leads to a better environment and sustainability as a species, that’s a worthy pursuit. My point is, I don’t see economies being worse off after investing in anti climate change technologies. We are already flushing our money down that military-industrial toilet as it is, so we have nothing to lose by spending it on environmental sustainability instead.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

that is, unfortunately, a whole different issue. Imagine the social change we could accomplish with 1% of the defense budget. Imagine where we'd be in the development of Fusion reactors with 1% of the defense budget. Imagine what we'd gain if x% wasn't siphoned off (directly or indirectly, legally or illegally) from the budget (eg "pork" projects), and instead the budget was spent on useful things (but who to define "useful" ?).

Personally I laugh when people say we have to terraform Mars to protect ourselves from extinction events ... by the time we can terraform Mars (if we should terraform Mars) social unrest will have killed us off a long time ago.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

I take it by those comments that you discount the military industrial complex as an important part of the economy. Or that defense readiness is a deterrent to war.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Quote:

I respect people who don't blindly accept climate change as gospel, but what if you look at it not as a skeptic, but as a pragmatic manager of risk? does that change the calculus for you?

I completely agree with the intent of your post, including the intent of the statement above, but we should not treat a skeptical approach and a risk management approach as two opposites. Skepticism is an integral part of risk management. We should be especially skeptical about:

1) Evidence that supports our preconceptions.
2) Evidence that leads us to discount the risk of adverse consequences.

Skepticism doesn't mean the automatic rejection of evidence that suggests our current activities may have significant adverse consequences. That is the very opposite of skepticism.

Skepticism means always considering the possibility that evidence may be wrong or misleading, and considering the consequences if it is.

Engineering is employing a skeptical approach to maximise the difference between long term benefits and long term costs, including our best estimate of hidden costs.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Congressional testimony from IPCC coordinating lead author Richard Tol discussing Cook's 2013 paper (The 97% consensus one):
Quote: "I had a close look at what this study really did and as far as I know, as far as I can see, this estimate just crumbles when you touch it. None of the statements in the paper are supported by any data that's actually in the paper, so unfortunately...ehh, I mean, it's pretty clear that most of the science agrees that climate change is real and mostly likely human-made, but this 97% is essentially pulled from thin air. It's not based on any credible research whatsoever."

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Nir J. Shaviv
Ph.D. Astrophysics
Associate Professor, Racah Institute of Physics, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

Dr. Shaviv, your paper 'On climate response to changes in the cosmic ray flux and radiative budget' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as; "Explicitly endorses but does not quantify or minimise"

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?
Shaviv: "Nope... it is not an accurate representation. The paper shows that if cosmic rays are included in empirical climate sensitivity analyses, then one finds that different time scales consistently give a low climate sensitiviity. i.e., it supports the idea that cosmic rays affect the climate and that climate sensitivity is low. This means that part of the 20th century should be attributed to the increased solar activity and that 21st century warming under a business as usual scenario should be low (about 1°C).

I couldn't write these things more explicitly in the paper because of the refereeing, however, you don't have to be a genius to reach these conclusions from the paper."

Any further comment on the Cook et al. (2013) paper?
Shaviv: "Science is not a democracy, even if the majority of scientists think one thing (and it translates to more papers saying so), they aren't necessarily correct. Moreover, as you can see from the above example, the analysis itself is faulty, namely, it doesn't even quantify correctly the number of scientists or the number of papers which endorse or diminish the importance of AGW."


How many of these do you want? I've got lots!

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Why do people spend so much time debating this 97% number?

A more interesting question is this:

What proportion of climate scientists would need to explicitly state that human GHG emissions will not have an adverse effect on the climate, for us to be confident that there was no need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

We can't put a precise figure on that because it would depend on who said it, and what they said, but surely there is no argument that the number is very much greater than 3%

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Because it seems to be a holy icon for the true believers, as you can see in previous posts in this thread. If the only argument you can muster is that 97% of whatever support your position, and in fact that number is bogus, then you are just waving your hands in the air.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

In the context of a corrupt society looking to exploit a niche for its own agenda - TRUST NOBODY.

Manipulation of scientific data and outright fraudulence is rife across all fields of science; the pharmaceutical and nutrition industries are arguably the most disgusting.

When the nutritional "experts", backed by dozens of peer-reviewed scientific studies, told us that eating animal fat would kill us and we should all switch to margarine, 97% of America obliged and those who questioned it were ridiculed. It was then uncovered that the "scientific" research had been manipulated beyond belief; coincidently, the research had been funded by the chaps marketing margarine.

I have to wonder if 97% of these damning Climate Change testimonies aren't a product of research funded by the organisations profiting from the mass hysteria?

Having said that, I appreciate the efforts of people who believe our world is frying and are stepping up to intervene- these are true heroes at heart, fighting for something they believe in. If we can fork out trillions for margarine, we can certainly do it again for climate change.

All the best,
Mike

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

@hokie66, "you discount the military industrial complex as an important part of the economy" ...
um, no in fact I think I'm almost saying the opposite. The amount we spend on the military is enormous and so is that "industry"s participation in the economy ... it has to be, that's where we're spending the money.

but could we reduce the military budget by a few %age points ? Would this detract significantly from our nation's security ? This would generate jobs etc in an industry more closely aligned to humanity'e end goals (as opposed to any one nation's goals). Would this be a "better" use of the money ??

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Maybe we should focus on the common ground.

Do we all agree that increasing energy efficiency would benefit us all?
Do we all agree that less pollution would benefit us all?
Do we all agree that having a sustainable/renewable energy source rather than a diminishing finite energy source would benefit us all?

I think we would all say yes, in general to the above. So why not drive towards those goals? What's really the downside? I don't see how we could possibly end up worse off in the long run if that is what we decide to put our human energy and resources into. If climate change is a real threat, then maybe we do enough to make our descendants' lives a little easier. If it's not really such a big threat, then our descendants will still thank us for investing in things that improved their quality of life and maybe even improve geopolitical stability, who knows?

I believe this is a cause that engineers around the world would love to put their hearts and minds into. It's an extremely worthy cause independent of whether this government report is accurate or not. But if we remain fractured and spinning our wheels in endless debate, I think we are just wasting time when we could be adding real value. I don't think military spending is furthering our species at all, but that's just my personal opinion so maybe I should have kept that part out of the discussion.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Military spending isn't all bad; this very forum exists because the Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA), the predecessor to DARPA, funded ARPANET, which morphed into the internet we know today.

Arguably, there are lots of bad actors and evildoers across the globe, and without a strong military, the US would certainly be hard pressed to protect its interests and citizens internationally.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Outstanding post, bones. Right up until the end. You definitely should have kept that part out of the discussion.

The devil is in the details; she also wears prada.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Even though there might be agreement on the general goals, the timescale and scope are what's at the crux of the discussion. We've had fuel efficiency standards that have made slow progress over the decades, so they fit into the overall "increasing energy efficiency" goal, but if we were to decide that we needed to get 50 mpge from every vehicle sold and on the road by 2029, that would be a different matter altogether, and any further discussion would grind to a halt. The same goal with 2079 timeframe would probably not create much fuss, but it wouldn't help that much with current pollution or conservation concerns.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Quote (IRstuff)

Even though there might be agreement on the general goals, the timescale and scope are what's at the crux of the discussion

I tend to think we make the most strides when the scope of the task is monumental and there is a great sense of urgency. How many innovations throughout history were made out of some urgent necessity? But I think that approach requires someone who’s in charge to set the agenda and force us to adapt and innovate and reallocate resources and energy. If not, we may end up getting to the same place eventually through the normal incremental process of change, but why risk it if there really does turn out to be a “point of no return” for habitability that is within our lifetimes?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

Quote:

If the only argument you can muster is that 97% of whatever support your position

That is not the only argument that can be mustered of course, as you are surely aware.

But even if it was, if the 97% turned out to be 3%, but those 3% were qualified in their field, and the consequences if they were right were severe, and the consequences of taking action were beneficial to neutral whether they were right or not, then it would be foolish to ignore them.

By the way, I really don't think it's helpful to divide people into "true believers" and "skeptics", or to divide people into two opposite camps at all, even if they did have less blatantly inaccurate titles.

Quote:

In the context of a corrupt society looking to exploit a niche for its own agenda - TRUST NOBODY.

I completely agree.

Especially when what they say agrees with your preconceptions.

And especially when what they are saying is "our activities, from which we make huge profits, are harmless, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Just trust us"

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

" task is monumental and there is a great sense of urgency"

True, but in the past, when such things came up, there was not an organized and unrelenting opposition. Had the same energy existed during the Kennedy era, we would have never gotten to the moon. We currently have one major party completely subsumed with wiping out any chance of reducing the climate change, even as they secretly admit that the change is happening.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

If the threat is perceived to be real and imminent, like in the case of an attack on native soil, political differences tend to be put aside. Climate change doesn't have that effect on people because it's relatively invisible in our daily lives. It will be interesting to see what China does, because they don't really have much in the way of political opposition and most of the senior leaders were trained as engineers. Also, pollution is very much visible in people's daily lives there. I believe they are already investing 2 to 3 times as much as the US in renewables and nuclear.

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

It isn't just invisible. As I showed above, the trends in climate have some positives, so depending on your particular encounters with whichever facets of global warming related changes affect you, to date it is quite reasonable for some people to say it doesn't seem to be a problem to date, or for the foreseeable future, that is, what can be affected by their actions now. In fact this is the dominant position when people are asked what their priorities are. Action on global warming is way down the list.

http://data.myworld2015.org/

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

RVAmeche, this is always a touchy subject. Many use unreliable sources for their information. I stopped debating because it's too time consuming and it's useless.

I used to be on the far right but am there no longer. Growth, I suppose. About 4 years ago, I finally decided to listen to the scientists and engineers doing the research and publishing their research. YouTube is a great resource for this endeavor. I read reports, looked at some of the data, looked at the math they used, etc. It was quite a lesson and eye-opening, i.e., my opinions were changed. There are standards for climate scientists for education, doing climate research, and publishing, consistently, their climate research. If people putting forth their opinions about climate science don't meet the criteria, I don't bother with them. I'd prefer having a more informed opinion than an uninformed one. The only way to get informed is to listen to the people doing the research and consistently publishing it.

I also know some of the climate scientists and have a good deal of respect for them and their work. They're trying to put together projects on shoe string budgets. For those that think climate scientists are all about money and the power money brings, that isn't true from my observations. They also understand the importance of being right and wrong. They get it in ways we do not.

I also used to believe the Bible but I don't any longer. I learned too much about microbiology because of Lyme disease to believe the Bible. And, there are flat earthers in pockets of the country you wouldn't expect due to education and affluence. There seems to be something about the Bible and unquestionably believing it that leads to flat earthism. A fellow engineer said gullibility is a problem peculiar to the USA and has roots in the early settlers, who came here for religious freedom. Does that mean it's genetic? I don't know and don't remember if he read that in his travels or not.

The Central Chapter of NSPE-CO is having a program tonight on climate science modeling. Colorado used to have plenty of permafrost for Kevin Schaefer to study. He now has to study it in Alaska because we don't have it now. I thought more would be interested but they are not. Last year, we had a Ph.D. chemist present on the chemistry of climate science, which was also not well attended. I don't have any feel for why but there is no interest. I guess things will have to get really bad for anyone to really understand the changes coming and the significance of those changes and to become curious enough to start listening to the people doing the research. It may well be the same principle at work here as it is with flat earthism and we "didn't put man on the moon" thinking.

When people start talking conspiracy theory stuff, with climate science, politics, money, etc., I just walk away, if I can. If I can't, I listen without engaging. I have childhood friends, and others, that believe outrageous stuff but it seems perfectly normal to them. They don't bother to fact check and it's really easy to do with history dating back to the Civil War. Laziness, lack of interest, belief that they're right, etc. could all be possibilities for not checking their sources. But they do not see themselves as part of the problems we have. They see themselves as part of the solution even though they believe lies. They can dig up more false information to refute than I have time or interest to deal with. They either get curious about truth on their own and listen to the people doing the work or they don't. I'm not in charge of anything including what they think, consume, decide, etc. I can barely do those things in my own life. winky smile

An educator I consider a friend wrote that she's glad she wasn't trained on the math the climate scientists use. That was in response to my statement that I recognize the math because I was trained in it. I've used it but for controls problems not climate science. I thought her response was ignorant and petty. But, she's welcome to her thoughts. But this is the attitude some have that are educating our youngsters.

As an EE, I am not trained to do climate research and my experience doesn't lend itself to doing it either. If I want them to trust me, I need to trust them. Trust is a fundamental aspect of human relationships. Sadly, we have too little of that these days. We're all "experts" even though we really are not.

I was taught in HS to vet my sources. The teachers didn't want to read reports based upon charlatans or unreliable sources. They taught us how to vet sources. That requirement continued in college. Sadly we do too little of that today and the internet makes it easy to find false information.

Keep up the good work!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

There was a cigarette smoker who used to believe cigarette smoking and cancer were simply correlated. He spent years arguing against attempts of drawing causal relationships. His arguments were sharp; they had to be: He was Ronald Fischer - a towering figure in statistics in the last century. But, no surprise to us, he was wrong. Funding from tobacco companies did not help his crusade. He let his bias prevent him from seeing the big picture.

I see some parallels of this story playing out in the climate change debate. Politicization of the debate has just made matters a lot worse.

*********************************************************
Are you new to this forum? If so, please read these FAQs:

http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=376
http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1083

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

IceBreakerSours, Ronald Fisher was an interesting man. Thanks for bringing him up. Makes one think that ideology shouldn't be too cemented as to not be able to change, when needed.

“Fisher was a political conservative and an elitist,” writes Paul Stolley. “Fisher was upset by the public health response to the dangers of smoking not only because he felt that the supporting data were weak, but also due to his holding certain ideological objections to mass public health campaigns.” from Priceonomics, Why the Father of Modern Statistics Didn't Believe Smoking Caused Cancer

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: US Government Climate Change Report says damage is intensifying across the country

"He let his bias prevent him from seeing the big picture."

That seems to be a common theme; there has always been a distrust of science and scientists by conservatives, particularly when the science is against them.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources

White Paper – Your Construction ERP RFP Checklist
Selecting business software for a medium to enterprise-sized construction concern is extremely challenging in large part because most enterprise resource planning (ERP) suites originated in the world of repetitive manufacturing and are therefore a poor fit for a project and asset-centric business. However, midsize to large contractors need the predictable, auditable processes that ERP delivers. Download Now

Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close