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Women in Engineering II
27

Women in Engineering II

Women in Engineering II

(OP)
Since the first post on this is closed, I decided to begin a new post.

This is a dated but interesting report that I'm working my way through. As I read through it, I see improvements that can be made to benefit women as well as men.

Women in Engineering: An Untapped Resource

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

4
The first report was sponsored by outfits that wanted to be seen as supportive of women, or at least not hostile to them. ... aside from sex-based wage discrimination, of course.

The second report says US demographics are changing. Duh.



Why is it important to anyone that the m/f ratio in engineering, or any trade, should match the m/f ratio in the general population? ... especially given that there are behavioral and physiological differences between the sexes?


Dated example:
You are too young to remember this, but when McDonalds was new, they hired only teenage boys as staff. They guaranteed that a customer would be greeted at the window within something like ten seconds, and it mostly happened that way, because the manager was yelling at anyone who was immobile, and there was always a line of unemployed teenage boys at the back door waiting for someone to be fired so they could have a job, that typically paid twice minimum wage to start. And someone was replaced on nearly every shift, so the survivors literally ran from station to station, fetching orders and such, and sweating so much that they really didn't need to salt the french fries.

Then the world changed. When McDonalds started hiring girls, they had to rebuild the buildings, so there would be wider aisles internally, to accommodate the much larger staff moving slowly around, or standing and waiting for something to happen. When's the last time you saw a teenage girl sweat? Right; never.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Women in Engineering II

I don't think that anyone is necessarily arguing the ratio should be exactly 50:50, but there's no obvious reason why it should be 75:25, particularly since girls have historically done better in science and math before getting into high school and ratio is 60:40 in the physical and life sciences. Even outside of STEM, certain countries have demonstrated that the gender ratio in the US for politicians is unusually weighted.

Note, also, women with math degrees actually outnumber men with math degrees in STEM workers. The biggest factor appears to be that nearly 60% of women with STEM degrees and working in STEM have degrees in physical and life sciences. So, given that physics and math are not an impediment for women, that makes the enormous disparity engineering and computer science degrees all the more peculiar.

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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote (IRstuff)


...that the gender ratio in the US for politicians is unusually weighted.

I think we are in the process of seeing this change significantly.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

I would be disappointed at anyone who set quotas, as having a diverse workforce has it's own reward. In the world of ideas, no one has all the good or bad ideas.
It takes only one person to come up with a new idea, but several people to vet that idea.

What I see, and not to be critical, but more and more engineers are from a non-farm background, not just female, but also male. This is somewhat concerning, in that the farm background I feel makes a better start for engineers. But from that perspective, fewer farm girls, in the past, work on farm equipment.

The reason I have given this thought is that my daughter states she wants to be an engineer, but does not seem to interested in seeing how things work. And it makes me ponder.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Cranky, this goes beyond farm background to a basic interest in how things function.
By and large kids today don't play with physical toys where you build things or make simple machines.
How may electrical engineers over 50 started building Heathkits when they were young?
The same goes for other disciplines.
When I was a kid if we wanted to play we had to build it first.
Everything from simple structures to later, minibikes.
Get a group of kids and let them take stuff apart and put it back together. They will learn lots.
We don't all need to be master mechanics to be good engineers, but we do need an intuitive sense whether something is realistic or not before we do the calculations.
Every good engineer that I have ever worked with was good at estimating things.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

RE: Women in Engineering II

I came from a non-farm background and was really the only person in my extended family (I include in this grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, siblings and 1st cousins) to ever attend engineering school. My father never even finished high school, however, he did run, to help make ends meet, a small engine repair business so while I was still at home I got to help him work on lawn mowers, chainsaws, outboard motors, etc. He also had a full set of metal working tools including a lathe, drill press, welders (both gas and electric), hydraulic press, etc, so he also got involved in all sorts of other more general repair type jobs. He was also a pretty decent carpenter and cabinet maker, although I never got too much into his woodworking projects as I tended to stick with the mechanical stuff. And for the record, his 'day job' was working as a diesel mechanic and heavy equipment operator for the State of Michigan.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

I'm 57, but Heathkits were pretty much before my time.
The way kids play is changing, but then again, engineering is, too, so maybe spending hours on computer games is actually more useful (to an engineering degree) than spending hours throwing hay bales around.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Well, I'm 70 and back in the days, I built several Heathkits, including a Shortwave Radio...



...a VTVM (which I still have and still works)...



...and finally our first Color TV...



I also still have (and it still works) a Knight Kit Tube Tester that I built when I was in high school...



And before you ask, I still have a need for a tube tester as one of my hobbies are radios the 'glow-in-the-dark', my best one being a 1965 Hammarlund HQ-180AC general coverage receiver (AKA shortwave radio):

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

My son will be 16 this summer. He's capable with basic tools at a level probably 100x that of his peers as a result of projects that we've done together, or the times I've dragged him into things as a 2nd pair of hands, but he has no interest in building anything. And I get it- why would he bother, when the electronic world inside his computer games already provides him with a nearly limitless toolbox at no cost? He has no problems in the physical world that he would need to build something to solve. In his games there are no materials to buy, or scrounge- no safety rules to follow, no need to clean up afterward. He did spec, buy the parts for, and assemble his own gaming machine. Whenever he encountered a problem, there was a Youtube video explaining what you had to do to fix it.

That's with a parent who lives for solving problems in the physical world. Most of his peers have parents who couldn't be bothered to spend five minutes to figure out why the electric lawnmower stopped working- they throw it out and buy another one.

You'd think this would mean that the kids lucky enough to have the interest, inclination and opportunity to solve problems in the physical world combined with the ability in math and science to do an engineering degree would have the world as their oyster. Regrettably it isn't so, and hasn't been for a long, long time. I was one of very few mechanically capable kids in my chem eng class in university and that was decades ago already, before "helicopter parenting" and all that rubbish.

RE: Women in Engineering II

There will be more women engineers when more women graduate from engineering colleges and enter the work force. And that is and has been happening over the decades. When I graduated in 1969, we had 6 women in an engineering school of over 1100. When the article was published in 1992 less than 1% of engineers were women with 20 years of experience. No doubt there were few women enginering managers and roll models for other potential women engineering candidates.

While in college, I met many brilliant women majoring in math, chemistry and physics in my classes. I asked more than a few of them why they weren't planning to be engineers and suggested that they would make considerably more money to start after graduation. A graduate with BS in Chem E would start at over 40% more than a grduate with BS in Chemistry at that time. But I couldn't persaude them to change. I think it was mainly a fear of entering an almost all male world.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Interesting point. Nevertheless, those that entered non-engineering science careers followed trailblazers in those fields as well; it just appears that they were more amenable to change than engineering.

Let's not forget that barely 70 years ago, Crick and Watson became famous, supposedly partly on the back of unpublished work from Rosalind Franklin.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Supposedly?

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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Odd that the presence of women (or lack thereof) in certain areas of the workforce generates a lot of attention, while relatively little interest is shown in men occupying roles that were traditionally held by women such as nursing.

Maui

RE: Women in Engineering II

Do we really think that there's substantial discrimination that prevents men from exceeding their 14% share of the RN workforce (https://www.ncsbn.org/workforce.htm), particularly since foreign trained 23% of foreign-trained LPNs/LVNs are male.

What's interesting and telling, is that despite their low share of the market, male RNs make more money than female RNs. One cannot show that women engineers make more than male engineers.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

IR, I never said anything about discrimination. I said that I simply find it odd. Perhaps if objective, non-biased studies were performed to determine what motivates each gender to enter a certain career field while avoiding others we would have a better understanding behind what we observe in the workplace regarding the distribution in occupations for each gender. From my own point of view I can understand why many women would not find the occupation of engineering an attractive career choice. For example, they would have to work with us. smile

RE: Women in Engineering II

Here's someone who recently took a stab at the question in the Wall Street Journal:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-do-women-shun-ste...

A portion of the article:
Why do relatively few women work in science, technology, engineering and mathematics? University of Washington lecturer Stuart Reges —in a provocative essay, “Why Women Don’t Code”—suggests that women’s verbal and analytical skills lead to career choices outside STEM. Mr. Reges’s critics say he is making women feel inferior by implying they aren’t interested in tech. I’m a female engineering professor with decades of experience as well as a background in the humanities and social sciences, so perhaps I can lend some perspective to the controversy.
I’ve observed that women tend to choose disciplines other than STEM, often for the reasons Mr. Reges mentions. Yet his argument is incomplete. An important but often neglected factor is the attitudes of undergraduate professors. Not STEM professors, but professors in the humanities and social sciences.

Professors have profound influence over students’ career choices. I’m sometimes flabbergasted at the level of bias and antagonism toward STEM from professors outside scientific fields. I’ve heard it all: STEM is only for those who enjoy “rote” work. Engineering is not creative. There’s only one right answer. You’ll live your life in a cubicle. It’s dehumanizing. You’ll never talk to anyone. And, of course, it’s sexist. All this from professors whose only substantive experience with STEM is a forced march through a single statistics course in college, if that.

The article points out that there are also good and bad bosses in the workplace and that bias happens all the time, especially in fields like nursing.

Oakley's final paragraph sums it up:
I have experienced bias in my career, but I also would not be where I am today without the strong support of many wonderful men. Women are vitally important to STEM. Professors outside these disciplines should stop mischaracterizing to poach the best students, who are often women. And it’s time for everyone to step back, take a breath, and acknowledge that good and bad bosses and co-workers exist everywhere.


And another short article by the same author:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovation/barbara...

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RE: Women in Engineering II

JAE, that is interesting. I didn't know that the humanities often bashed STEM disciplines in that way. That could certainly influence the choices a college student might make.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Maui I didn't know that either - I might still be a little wary of the assertion but the writer seems to convey that she has seen this and knows it occurs.

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RE: Women in Engineering II

Maui,

I think that the discussions that have been going on demonstrate that objective study is nearly impossible at this stage in history. People don't really know what motivates them until much therapy and analysis have been performed. Certainly, people have convinced themselves to go a particular way, only to realize years or decade later that they actually were kowtowing to parental or societal desires.

Moreover, while we retain feelings generated by random events, we might not recall the specific events themselves; this is supposedly the root cause of certain discrepancies in the health of African-American that's being laid on the effect of pervasive discrimination on mental and physical health.

Men, if we believe that they are ostensibly the power class, ought not have the same concern applied to those of the underclass, whether they're women or blacks. This morning, there was a new bit about men claiming discrimination because they're excluded from certain women's groups and even "Ladies Nights." If this were a truly gender neutral world, that argument might hold water, but it's not, and won't be, for some time to come.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

In the real world, most people can make decisions without facts.

Engineers tend to be more fact based, weather needing most, or all the facts to make a decision.

And there are a few people who despite having all the facts can't make a decision.

And while I have no information on the gender breakdown of this, I seem to hear more from one gender than the other.
My takeaway from all of this is that I run in to more of one gender than the other (could it just be a nature thing).

Or said another way, things may not be what they appear.
Some people maybe wired differently and be more of followers, some leaders, and those who follow their own paths.



RE: Women in Engineering II

I don't think that there is any decision ability breakdown on gender. I think there are breakdowns in environments. A guy can be aggressive and decisive and be looked at as in charge. There are less than flattering remarks often made about women who do the same. Any differences, I believe are trained in by the environment. I can't accept the belief in there are differences in ability when at every level in the educational system, women perform men and now outnumber men substantially in university enrollment.

There are issues ,too, of not getting assigned the prime projects which allow for learning and growth. If you aren't properly mentored, supported, and given opportunities, your career will be very stunted. Biases play heavily in my opinion into that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Pam,
Interesting article. Note that it's not based on published results, but on preliminary evidence...

I would be the first to suggest the cause is the lack of participation in family life by men. I'm among the guilty.
It's hard to rationalize the "caught off guard" part, though. The amount of home and family duties carried out by men and women has been studied for decades and always found disparate.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

RE: Women in Engineering II

This is encouraging; https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/08/2... 39% increase in women taking AP Computer Science Exam bringing them up to a smidge over 28% participation rate.

Of course, the bad news is that it makes getting into a CS program in college all that much more competitive.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)

Quote (HamburgerHelper)

I think there are breakdowns in environments. A guy can be aggressive and decisive and be looked at as in charge. There are less than flattering remarks often made about women who do the same.

That's part of the problem. I've experienced it often. I've talked with several female engineers over the summer who experienced the same treatment often. Many men are taken aback by a strong woman. A female EE about 20 years my senior has been telling me that for about 10 years. A lot of men do not like nor want strong, smart, educated women. I don't understand why but they have their reasons and it's their right to have that attitude. It is not proper to use that attitude against any woman.

Some of the work environment that needs to change to benefit women I see as benefitting men, too. A more flexible, family friendly work environment would benefit men as much as women.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

"Many men are taken aback by a strong woman."

That speaks volumes about where gender equality is. I certainly have noticed that most of the female leads or program managers don't get the respect that a comparable male would get; the capital "B" label is often bandied about, but a guy would simply be "tough" and "in-charge."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Pam,
I feel bad that I haven't been participating in this thread as much as I'd like to. I feel like I have a lot to say, hopefully some of it useful, but also reluctant, because it's like talking about co-workers behind their backs. Normally I get by with vague references to people I work with, and move on to the question or concern to be discussed. On this subject, it's different because I would want to draw out my observations more specifically, but it would be obvious to the person involved who I'm talking about. While I believe I can justify anything I would say, good or bad, that doesn't mean I should be talking about it openly with a bunch of strangers. I see Eng-Tips on many of my co-workers' screens, and while few of them realize I'm "Sparweb" yet, some do, and there's no reason for me to keep that a secret from the rest.

So just in very vague terms, I've worked almost my entire 19-year career where >90% of my co-workers were men. Women, regardless of their technical background, were very rarely seen doing technical work, either in the design office, the shop, or the hangar, and if they got sidelined by family issues, well, that's the way it always is, right? In recent years, I was making protests about the hiring and training practices my employer was making, mistakes not specifically related to including women in the department, but if they were fixed, would make the department much less hostile to them anyway.
This suddenly changed when I moved to my current employer earlier this year, who is much more actively hiring not just women but a diversity, too. There are almost as many women in this engineering dept as men, and there are so many differences to what I've seen before I don't know where to begin. The whole atmosphere is different.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote (lacajun)

Some of the work environment that needs to change to benefit women I see as benefitting men, too. A more flexible, family friendly work environment would benefit men as much as women.

This is a great point.

RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)
SparWeb, I understand your situation and don't feel any pressure to reveal something that is inappropriate to reveal. I am glad you're in a different work atmosphere and I hope it's positive. I've worked in mostly or all male environments. When women were present, they did technical work but were not going anywhere in their careers.

RickyTickyTavi, congrats on the upcoming bundle of joy! I'm glad you have 12 weeks paid paternal leave and do take full advantage of it. It matters for your family and changing the work culture for the better.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

2
If a man is aggressive or rude then he is often said to be a 'c***'. If a woman is aggressive or rude then she is often said to be a 'b****'. While the words might be somewhat gendered in their application, the intent of the words is exactly the same. I don't know anyone who has been affronted by a man at work and just thought that was okay because that man was 'taking charge', or some other nonsense. To be honest I find that assertion ridiculous, unless your office has some form of collective Stockholm syndrome to that man.

Behaviour is viewed based on what is 'normal' for an individual: if a normally placid person decides to start screaming this would be viewed as out of the ordinary and invoke a much different reaction compared to if a naturally aggressive person started screaming. Peoples' views of others are based on a benchmark or baseline of what they expect from those others, so perceptions need to be considered in a normalised framework (i.e. baseline +/- amplitude). This 'baseline' for men would tend to be on the more aggressive side, considering the impact of hormones like testosterone and oestrogen on behaviour. As such, the type of aggressive behaviour we are discussing will inevitably be seen as less out of the ordinary from most men because the baseline behaviour tends to be on the more aggressive side. The reaction will therefore differ.

In the above there is an important part which explains the inequality of perception: 'what they expect'. Going through life all of us have tended to see men as relatively more aggressive or assertive than women, overall, for various reasons (cultural, social, economic and, yes, biological reasons are all influences). This experience-based perception is applied to identifiable groups and results in bias. Likewise, such experience-based perceptions have shaped all sorts of interactions between human groups throughout history.

This inequality of perception can only go away when the experience base is eroded. The only thing we can do to erode that experience base is to deal with the 'nurture' side of things: social constructs, institutional discrimination, etc. The 'nature' side cannot go away, so some bias will always remain. Nonetheless, the better use of effort in the short-term is turning an inequality of perception to an advantage.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Pamela,

Thanks for that link at the top. I found it pretty interesting, but it was 25 years old. Do you think the stuff in that report still holds true today? If so, which stuff has changed and which hasn't?

I've found out personally very recently that the "children" issue has not been resolved at all in my field. My wife and I are both engineers, and I began running my own business in part so I could split the child duties 50/50 with her. She's recently been stricken with cancer, and is on disability now, so I'm doing all the childcare, homemaking, as well as taking care of her medical needs. Since we were piggybacking on her insurance, I put some feelers out with some of my client companies to see if I could work for them at reduced hours and reduced pay, to handle my home responsibilities and still get medical covered. The feedback was pretty stark. Basically, "nope." I could work 50 hours a week for them and hire a nanny, or I could not work for them at all. Cultural barrier. And it strikes me that every single mom in the country, and plenty of women who want to take a more active role in their families, run into that barrier.

I see the same thing in the employee profiles at my clients offices. Lots of younger women in their 20s doing very well with their careers. The numbers drop off steeply in their 30s.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter. This seems to me like it might be one of the primary issues.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

And then, there's this: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/many-job-ad...

So, in principle, and in practice, one could advertise jobs, but tailor the ads to exclude all sorts of undesirable segments, like women, or minorities.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

During employee orientation in a room of 150 or so, we were asked to list out put together of five things the company did right and five things the company could work on. The HR rep went around asking people to say what they put on the list. One girl in engineering said matter factly, "senior engineering is made up of enclusively white males." A lot of sighs were let out when she said that but it isn't like what she was saying wasn't likely an accurate representation. The HR rep replied "That is something we are working on to try to change." It put HR on the spot for a problem with no quick or easy fixes. I had to admire though how much gumption she had with only having been at the company for 6 months or less.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Here's a rather amusing story; Amazon's AI for sorting through job applications is SEXIST! Apparently, it was trained to find qualified applicants, based on previous hires, which were mostly male, and successfully figured out how to discriminate against women based on the training set. It figured out words and colleges on resumes that indicated the applicant was not like the training set.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/364315/amazon-shut-down...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

I'm not a big fan of trumpeting "systemic sexism/racism!" all day every day like many other people seem to do. In my view, racism is fundamentally an act of the individual, and if a "system" is made of nonracist people then the system won't be racist itself. That's just a personal opinion, and others are welcome to hold different opinions.

This stuff, however:

Quote:

So, in principle, and in practice, one could advertise jobs, but tailor the ads to exclude all sorts of undesirable segments, like women, or minorities.

...where AIs or heuristics are allowing targeted ads within social media platforms, and that targeting is breaking down intentionally or not along gender/race lines, just freaking screams "systemic racism" to me. Ben Carson was right to go after Facebook for it.

Quote:

Here's a rather amusing story; Amazon's AI for sorting through job applications is SEXIST! Apparently, it was trained to find qualified applicants, based on previous hires, which were mostly male, and successfully figured out how to discriminate against women based on the training set. It figured out words and colleges on resumes that indicated the applicant was not like the training set.

Any nitwit who knows how neural networks operate should have been able to predict this. Neural Nets are blind learning machines, whose only job is to replicate predictions based on input data, without human judgment or reason. If you train an ANN against a set of data, it is going to try to reproduce that set of data as closely as possible. Train it on male resumes, get male hits. The programmers should have known better from the beginning. Makes me wonder what sort of talent they hired at Amazon that wouldn't pick up on that sooner.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

"if a "system" is made of nonracist people then the system won't be racist itself. "

You clearly argue the exact opposite 3 paragraphs later. If we all started perfectly non-racist and non-sexist as babies, we, like your neural nets, learn by example. We learn and assimilate the fact that 99% of the people currently in power are old, white men, and that taller Nordic types are the power players below them. We learn and assimilate that black and gay people are token participants in everyday life.

It's no different than watching one's weight; it's an ongoing and continual exercise to exercise and maintain the desired calorie counts. People mistake being vigilant as "trumpeting" but we don't claim that our continuing and constant battle against bad actors in our cyber lives as "trumpeting" some sort of PC behavior. Does anyone seriously doubt that Russia, China, etal, aren't engaged in cyber activities against American interests?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

You clearly argue the exact opposite 3 paragraphs later.

Yep. Now that these non-human actors are in play, we can build a system out of non-human actors that exhibits systemic racism without realizing it. Prior, all the nodes in our systems were ultimately people.

That's my view, anyway.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

You miss my point, which is that even if you dropped a bunch of non-racist people into the current world, they would learn, just like the neural nets, by example, and become racist. So that "system" of non-racists would become racist and sexist. You would have to actively force this system to constantly reset itself to maintain any level of unbias.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

....in 2 words it is called "victimhood obsession"...

RE: Women in Engineering II

If you want to take that angle, anyone who is religious has a "don't sin obsession". Anyone who exercises has a "be healthy obsession".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

RE: Women in Engineering II

This has been the traditional tactic since time immemorial; attack, denigrate, and ridicule the victim, because men are obviously not responsible for their actions or are constantly being accused of rape by radical feminists, and demonstrate why women don't even tell their own families about such things.

This is precisely why only 35% of sexual assaults are even reported and why 1 in 6 women will get sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. These statistics are simply unacceptable in a civilized society.

Certainly, if my wife or daughter got attacked, I wouldn't be blaming them; I'd go find the SOB(s) responsible and beat the crap out of them and make sure they'll never even think about doing anything with their 5th appendage besides peeing ever again.


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RE: Women in Engineering II

Hamburgerhelper,since you mention religion - my thoughts exactly, political correctness is the "middle ages" of today ( inquisition included as I can see...)

RE: Women in Engineering II

( inquisition included as I can see...)

only if men never lie and never sexually assault women, which has been positively demonstrated with Weinstein, Lauer, etal, to be patently false.

Which is more likely, that a guilty man will lie about their crime, or that a woman would go through abuse, innuendo, etc., to lie about a fake attack?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

Which is more likely, that a guilty man will lie about their crime, or that a woman would go through abuse, innuendo, etc., to lie about a fake attack?

I believe you mean the relief and sympathy.

Ask a group of men who are <40 and have "been around" quite a bit. A very common female excuse in recent decades for having been caught 1. cheating, 2. sleeping with someone others disapprove of, or 3. sleeping with someone they personally regret is "rape." THAT is why so many are unreported - bc they're simply not true. I personally experienced all three of the above btw and would recommend contacting the police before going after a "guilty" man. Even "good" girls make these ridiculous claims and from experience, involving the police quickly resolves the truth of the matter.

RE: Women in Engineering II

I used to believe brainwashing and fanaticism to be incompatible with engineering.Not always the case as it seems...

RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

You miss my point, which is that even if you dropped a bunch of non-racist people into the current world, they would learn, just like the neural nets, by example, and become racist. So that "system" of non-racists would become racist and sexist.

I've had this discussion before, and in the end, it all comes down to the interlocutors opinions on free will. If you believe that all people are neural net based robots who react to stimuli the same way the Amazon bot does, then your case is iron clad. I grant you this up front. I have a differing opinion of the nature of humanity.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)

Quote (LRJ)

the better use of effort in the short-term is turning an inequality of perception to an advantage.

My last director of engineering told me that I needed to "learn how to make being a woman work for me." My work was not speaking for itself and had not been for many years.

There are many forms of aggression and some do not belong in a professional setting, from what I consider to be highly educated people working in a professional setting. Evidently others agree because HR usually produces an employee handbook stating such behaviors are unacceptable. I thought as a small business owner I wouldn't have the need for an employee handbook. I was wrong and had to do it. People endlessly surprise me with crazy thoughts.

beej67, much of it, though dated, still applies. That was what struck me, as I read it. When I, as an older woman, have men 20 years my junior tell me that I have no business being an engineer or running my own company because I've taken "the" spot a man should have, that really sums it up. Just by getting the engineering degree I had taken "a" spot a man should have. As if that's the way life really works... Is there a lottery system to attend public institutions of higher learning? And what if no man fills that spot? Should I still go elsewhere? Men and women are doing things all the time in all aspects of life. Life is very dynamic not some rigid system of whatever their biases are. There are plenty of white, male owned companies that will not take on risky projects.

There are a lot of changes employers could make that would ease the burdens of life for their employees rather than make them continue in hardships. They don't, I suppose, because of greed. They're in the business to make as much money as possible and that means full-time employees making the money for them because they cannot do it alone, which is obvious to all. Some of the pieces that would make things better for women would also make things better for men, too. Families are units so when one has a hardship due to work the unit has hardship. I cannot see it any other way.

And I am very sorry your wife has cancer and hope she makes a full recovery. I hope your family supports you, too.

A friend attacked me recently blaming me for all of my career problems. He accused me, wrongly, of being arrogant and thinking less of him because he didn't get an engineering degree. I was floored by every accusation. I apologized but even that wasn't enough and wasn't deemed genuine. I was floored by that, too. I could do nothing right. Yet, the first time he broached the career problems years earlier, the example he used was a "sweet, young thing" doing great in sales. In my 50's, I'm not exactly young and some think I'm not sweet. He didn't even understand the adjectives he used in his example. Sex, with men, is a powerful motivator, whether they think they'll get sex from a sex kitten in sales or not. Some women, I know, use that to their advantage and they are fully aware that time is limited so they need to make the most of their time regardless of who they step on, too.

For the record, I will glove up and clean just about any toilet. I don't think arrogant people will do that or even come close to thinking it. I also don't discriminate against others for the education they get and I'm very tired of people doing it to me. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. We all make our choices and I am glad that others make theirs and invest in themselves through education.

Quote (IRstuff)

So, in principle, and in practice, one could advertise jobs, but tailor the ads to exclude all sorts of undesirable segments, like women, or minorities.

And that does happen.

As I've posted before, a man young enough to be my son refused to do business with me because he didn't think I could do the work. He "knew" how things worked. I was a front for a male owned engineering firm, which I would hire to "really" do the work because they could and I couldn't. It's just like the black owned engineering firms, which were his words. I was floored that he would say those things and surprised at his ignorance of how business does work. I don't care to do business with people like that.

Quote (beej67)

I'm not a big fan of trumpeting "systemic sexism/racism!" all day every day like many other people seem to do.

I don't either but sadly it is systemic and much of it hasn't been dealt with adequately because there are no adults in the room. I use "room" in a very broad sense.

Quote (vthomidis)

....in 2 words it is called "victimhood obsession"...

And while males are taking that exact tack now even though while males still have the bulk of the power, position, etc. A white male (ChemE) told me at work many years ago that they have the power, position, money, etc. and they're not about to give it up. They'll fight to keep it. So, as laws are made to level the playing field, they devise new, more subtle ways to discriminate against people. I thought that was quite the bold admission especially at work.

Quote (CWB1)

I believe you mean the relief and sympathy.

Many women, who come forward, receive death threats, costly relocation and security expenses, loss of employment, etc. Those far outweigh any relief and sympathy they may get. The last discussion, which was recent, I had with one of my childhood abusers was quite negative, threatening, and intimidating just like in childhood begging to be left alone. You learn not to speak because it will bring a heap of trouble on you! That was what they told me as a child. It would be my fault, not theirs. The culture then told me they were right and, sadly, it still does. Those men have voices and power I do not and I am not going to come forward to authorities and endure all of the problems that come with it. I avoid those men at all costs. And I don't need or want sympathy. I want change. I want better behavior from men.

Yes, it's a dangerous time for men. It's alwaysa been a dangerous time for women and will continue to be. We have always had to think of ways to avoid, work around, outsmart, etc. men because men don't respect women's boundaries or personhood. I've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to understand what happened to me for years during my childhood and why. More than one person called me crazy, as a young adult. The message was received and I got to work overcoming the problems of my family, culture, religious culture, etc. And do not misunderstand, I love men! I think men are great! But there are some men that I dislike a great deal and should.

Quote (vthomidis)

I used to believe brainwashing and fanaticism to be incompatible with engineering.

I saw the fallacies of that in engineering school.

*****************************************************************************************************

Dad told me once that he admired my ability to get knocked down and get back up, brush the dirt off, and get back on that horse. His delivery said more, really, than his words. His delivery implied that people had a right to knock me down. They do not. They do not even have the right to try and that is the genesis of laws.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Pamela. I really appreciate it.

Quote:

beej67, much of it, though dated, still applies. That was what struck me, as I read it. When I, as an older woman, have men 20 years my junior tell me that I have no business being an engineer or running my own company because I've taken "the" spot a man should have, that really sums it up.

Holy smokes. Wow.

That is completely outrageous, and I have never, ever run into anything like that in any workplace environment. While my environments are definitely male dominated, they've typically been about 20% to 25% women, and I've never even heard of anything like this. My wife was in construction for almost two decades and I've never heard of anything like that from her either. I've definitely heard stories, and there were occasions where we had some tough dinner table conversations about things that went on in her workplace, but never anything like that. That's astounding.

I googled you, and see you're in Denver. Did this happen there? Would you consider that sort of garbage to be common in places you've worked in/around/consulted for/etc?

Quote:

There are a lot of changes employers could make that would ease the burdens of life for their employees rather than make them continue in hardships. They don't, I suppose, because of greed. They're in the business to make as much money as possible and that means full-time employees making the money for them because they cannot do it alone, which is obvious to all. Some of the pieces that would make things better for women would also make things better for men, too. Families are units so when one has a hardship due to work the unit has hardship. I cannot see it any other way.

I really think big companies are missing the boat on this thing. I think it has to do with the salary mindset to begin with. I think if people were simply paid by how much they contribute, and the pay could easily fluctuate up or down, that people and businesses both could more easily adapt to changing circumstances, or to different employee's outside obligations. One of the boons of the "old" way of doing things - one breadwinner and one child rearer - is that it frees the employer up from having to worry about overburdening the employee. They don't have to worry about managing flexibility. I think whoever figures out a better business model to match the flexibility necessary for the next generation of employees who aren't monolithically within the (one breadwinner one child rearer) program is going to do well. But that will be a paradigm shift, and engineering businesses in particular are hesitant to shift paradigms.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

Back when I was working in 'hard engineering' (before my software days) in Michigan during the late 60's and the 70's, in our engineering department (we manufactured food and chemical processing machinery) there were no female engineers and only a couple of female draftsmen (I know that's not PC, but...). However the company did hire some females who did play a role in helping us sell equipment and I don't mean as salesmen (there I go again).

One young women in particular had a very outstanding appearance. Now don't get me wrong, she was a very competent secretary and no one ever had any complaints with either her work or even her deportment around the office. However, shortly after she was hired we had one of our semi-annual trade shows where we displayed our equipment and tended to wine & dine our prospective and current customers (remember this was the 60's and 70's). Well it seemed this secretary was included in the group that staffed our booth at the trade show. Now I'm not implying that anything untoward ever happened, but she did dress in a very different manner than any of us had ever seen her around the office and she was very friendly with everyone who walked into the booth. I know that other companies probably did the same thing, even going so far as the hiring 'professional' models to work their booths so at least our company 'kept it in the family' as it were, giving the job to an employee (trade show duty, while it could become a grind after awhile, was considered a perk by many people and those of us who went regularly were often the targets of envy around the office).

I guess the point I'm making is that hopefully we've come a long way. I do have to say that once I moved out to SoCal and started to work in the software industry, that first off, I was working with a lot more women, both as my peers and as my superiors (one of my best bosses ever was a female). And when I had my turn as a manager, short-lived though that might have been (I moved from sales management to a staff position in R&D after a couple of years) I had more than one female working for me, both in administration roles and in technical positions.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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RE: Women in Engineering II

I wonder how regional that stuff is.

Like, for instance, the last time I did a project in Miami-Dade, we had to hire a permit expediter because they literally wouldn't speak English to you in the building department unless you were a smoking hot bikini model. It was wild. I've never seen anything like it, before or since. This was mid 2000s, and was apparently totally culturally accepted down there at the time. We ended up hiring a very attractive yet very professional and intelligent lady to get us past the barrier, but most of the other expediters I saw looked like strippers with a day job. There was one lady with a thigh length semi translucent sundress on, dark skin, and an obvious white thong on underneath it, pulling a wagon full of construction plans. I did not speak to her, so it would be wrong to judge how intelligent and professional an expediter she was by her appearance, but good gracious.

Never seen such a scene in my life.

Don't know if it's still like that. That was my only Miami project. From an ethical standpoint, I think we did our best as a company (this is my prior firm) to find a saddle point in the venn diagram between professionalism, cultural norms, and responsibility to our client, in who we selected as our expeditor and how we approached the project. Sometimes I think that's all you can do.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

Welcome back, Pam. I was starting to think that you had finally given up on us winky smile

"it all comes down to the interlocutors opinions on free will"

Not necessarily; there are a number of possible ways to configure the experiment and I wasn't particularly looking at just one generation of people.
> All children are born unbiased, and even when their own parents create an environment that's unbiased, unless they live in a cave, the sheer inundation of culture, even in supposedly unbiased children's shows like Barney, can seep in and contaminate those pure angels. Barney once had a segment in the 2002 time frame, discussing careers for the kids in the show; lo and behold, girls were nurses and teachers, boys were firefighters and chefs. It's so pervasive that my 3-yo already figured out that the "pink" aisle at Walmart was not for boys.
> It's often said that evil exists so that we can appreciate good. So that raises an interesting question about these unbiased people; are they unbiased because they choose to or because they've never had to make a decision based on bias? I think that in the former case, unless they live in a cave, their children will develop biases. In the latter case, they themselves will develop biases, simply because that's partly wired into the human brain. Family before tribe. tribe before nation, etc., are basic biases. We're all different colors, so unless these unbiased people are genetically programmed for blindness, they'll see the color differences and the brain starts to accumulate characteristics that are associated with the color differences. The same mental mechanism applies to foods; as hunter/gatherers, we've evolved the need to make associations tied to color, shape, texture, taste, and smell of foods that correlate to delicious, tolerable, bad, or dangerous. Because we live in a biased world, anything pure will get contaminated.
> An argument could be made that it should go the other way around; the pure should be able to cleanse the impure. But, we've seen historically, that people don't necessarily have good behavior unless someone forces them. We can see that democracy, ostensibly good, is fragile, easily abused, and is extraordinarily difficult to get started in most countries. Sexual equality is tantalizingly close, but never close enough to take root.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Dealing with a 100 people .Getting inappropriate behavior by 10 of them .Then, ignoring the 90 and pointing out the 10 as if they were the total.
That's typical of any lot of persons who get comfortable in feeling discriminated upon and in playing the victim part.

RE: Women in Engineering II

I'm trying to understand your position vthomidis because I'm not sure I follow. Are you stating that because actual victims arent thinking about the "good men" that theyre subsequently playing the victim part?

RE: Women in Engineering II

JohnRBaker:
"...there were no female engineers and only a couple of female draftsmen (I know that's not PC, but...). However the company did hire some females who did play a role in helping us sell equipment and I don't mean as salesmen (there I go again)."

John-in the time it took you to type your callout recognizing that "men" is a problem, you could have thought for a sec and used a gender-neutral term-e.g., drafter and salesperson. Language matters-keep telling a little kid there are draftsmen and she starts to believe there are no females in drafting.

McSEpllc:
Meyer Briggs is falling into disfavor in some circles-I've take it several times, and I can tweak my results by being in a different mood. Just one of the articles I've seen on the topic:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-t...
I totally disagree that life expectations are a function of gender-I'm with the nurture not nature crowd on that.

I spent a large part of my career smacking my head into a wall, in hopes that the hole I made would make it a bit easier on the next woman to get past the wall.

RE: Women in Engineering II

"Then, ignoring the 90 and pointing out the 10 as if they were the total. That's typical of any lot of persons who get comfortable in feeling discriminated upon and in playing the victim part. "

Is this what Faux News is reporting, because no woman I know is taking that position.

Are you saying that women aren't discriminated against?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

greenone, back in the 60's and 70's, absolutely no one was using terms like 'draftsperson' or 'salesperson' at least not in that part of the country where I was working. And while I might agree with you philosophically, at least back then, I can't recall anyone being particularly upset with the use of historically non-gender-neutral terms when there was no misogynistic intent in the context of their usage.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

No one was upset? Maybe not that you noticed.
How about the time I was at a railroad engineers meeting, and the keynote speaker opened with "Welcome, gentlemen...". When I approached him afterwards, he brushed me off with it was no big deal. His perception was I had no right or reason to be upset at being addressed as gentlemen. This was in the 70's.
I'm not trying to get you to drive a Delorean back to then, I'm just asking that you consider the impact of language today.

RE: Women in Engineering II

I did get tired to continue arguing.

My position has been stated in my previous posts : victimhood obsession, political correctness brainwashing, neomedievalism.
(i am not a native English speaker, therefore please excuse my poor vocabulary)
At the end of the day, if you gals (and you "supporting guys") believe that US society of the previous say 40 years has been so sexist, racist, chauvinist or whatever - you may know better than me.
In my corner of the globe (Greece), we have a better impression on the US.

Hope that some Martin Luther Queen will come along and fight for your rights...

RE: Women in Engineering II

greenone,
It was no big deal in the 70's because no one made it a big deal. Now, however, lots of folks want to butcher the English language by making everything non-gender. A move is underway even to remove gender from birth certificates. I for one am not buying any of it. Call me what you want, just call me to dinner.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Dinner time, come get it!

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

and the keynote speaker opened with "Welcome, gentlemen...". When I approached him afterwards, he brushed me off with it was no big deal. His perception was I had no right or reason to be upset at being addressed as gentlemen.

If this was in the US then he probably just thought you were rude as hell for calling him out on a faux-pas as most would. You might as well have called him out on minor grammar or spelling mistakes in his presentation while at it. In either case you come off as an arrogant ass most likely compensating for lack of ability otherwise.

Quote:

John-in the time it took you to type your callout recognizing that "men" is a problem, you could have thought for a sec and used a gender-neutral term-e.g., drafter and salesperson. Language matters-keep telling a little kid there are draftsmen and she starts to believe there are no females in drafting.

As every American child and I'm sure many foreign children are taught, words ending in "man" or "men" are gender neutral. Both my 60 year old copy of Webster's and the current online version define those words as "a person who..." My wife is a fireman as are two other women in her dept. Children dont recognize her uniform, but add turnout gear and they come running and recognize her as a "fireman" with no concept of what boys or girls can/cannot do. Tell them she's a "firefighter," "firewoman" or something otherwise and you'll get a confused stare from most preteens.

My father told me at an early age that you can either choose to live a happy life or a miserable one. If you go looking for misery or offense, there's no doubt you'll find it at every turn. In reality the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination, yet according to many we are hardly beyond slavery.

RE: Women in Engineering II

CWB1, I was generally agreeing with you, right up to your last sentence:

In reality the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination, yet according to many we are hardly beyond slavery.

I'm sorry, but I suspect that the people who fail to agree with you will be able to make a very good case for their position.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

Sure John, they can point out many ways in which specific groups are oppressed by a minority of folks in another group. I can then rebut with ways in which the oppressed groups knowingly do the same to their "oppressors" and they will defend it as balancing the scales. Tit for tat doesn't accomplish anything so is rather pointless. Much the same can be said for taking a militant approach toward reaching equilibrium, its counterproductive and chasing diminishing returns.

RE: Women in Engineering II

2
"they can point out many ways in which specific groups are oppressed by a minority of folks in another group"

And THAT makes "the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination?" Is DWB just mass hysteria in your view? Or that the fact that women have systematically been paid less for equal work not sexism?

" can then rebut with ways in which the oppressed groups knowingly do the same to their "oppressors" and they will defend it as balancing the scales."
Which examples of whites being oppressed by blacks can you cite?

The US government itself has had a history of discriminating against minorities and people of color. The Voting Rights Act is barely 53 years old, and it's pretty clear from what's been happening the US and elsewhere that not even 530 years is sufficient to weed out discrimination and racism. Korematsu's internment was not repudiated by the US Justice Department until 2011 and the Supreme Court in 2018. That means that US Government has held that it was within its right to summarily place their own citizens in concentration camps solely because the color of their skin. Despite helping the US expand to the Pacific by working on the Transcontinental Railroad, the US enacted the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, whose provisions were not fully abolished until 1965.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

And THAT makes "the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination?"

As good as its likely to get? Yes. I watch junior engineers chase perfection daily because they can't recognize "good enough," often taking 10 steps backward to end up at the same conclusion for no gain. In any large population of data there's going to be anomalies, just as in human nature there's always going to be hate and jealousy of others causing a minority of folks to do stupid things and cause issues. So long as those anomalies are a statistically rare occurrence then you often stand a better chance of causing more harm than good when proposing change. IME discussing these issues with friends and family an interesting observation regularly comes up, folks point out that those pushing for social justice change today are mostly older Americans whereas younger generations prefer to focus on improving our economy and regaining personal freedoms after decades of loss.

Quote:

Which examples of whites being oppressed by blacks can you cite?

The most relevant example for this forum that comes to mind are the various social welfare quotas that have favored minority education at the expense of other, better qualified candidates.

RE: Women in Engineering II

"at the expense of other, better qualified candidates"


And how did they get their better qualifications? Was it not through the status quo that favors whiter and more affluent children? And how did these oppressed minorities achieve this coup in power over their oppressors? Was it not actually that some of their oppressors recognized the inequity in the status quo and changed it? Certainly, prior to Obama, there was no black president and/or Congress that could have achieved such and upset in oppression, was there?

And, does anyone really forget that even decades after the Voting Rights Act, there's been a continued stream of racists in power, such as David Duke? Did racism suddenly disappear in the last 20 years? Did a avowed racist named Steve Bannon become an advisor to the current president?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote (CWB1)


The most relevant example for this forum that comes to mind are the various social welfare quotas that have favored minority education at the expense of other, better qualified candidates.

And how are 'legacy' admissions any different? The result is exactly the same, yet very few people are suggesting that this is somehow a problem that needs to be addressed. Why is that?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

IRstuff,
David Duke is a racist, but when has he been "in power"? And where did you get the idea that Bannon is an "avowed racist"? This rhetoric sounds very akin to Hillary Clinton's "deplorables" description of many of us, and look where it got her.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Well, David Duke was elected to the Louisiana legislature so he had at least some 'power'.

As for Steve Bannon... well in his own words:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/10/politics/steve-bann...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

David duke was also rather close to being elected to the Senate or Governership in the early 90's I believe. He managed to get a majority of white voters to support him.

RE: Women in Engineering II

In that clip, he didn't call himself a racist or a xenophobe. He said other people call his audience that, and they should accept the insults as a badge of honor. Judge him however, but he did not "avow" that he is a racist.

RE: Women in Engineering II

If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

Bannon ran a white nationalist website; his actions are his avowal. He's certainly not by any stretch of anyone's imagination a multiculturalist.

"It’s been almost a Camp of the Saints invasion into Central and Western and then Northern Europe."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Whatever you think of Bannon, as far as I know he is not an avowed racist. You may think that he has demonstrated that he is a racist, but you don't avow by action, you avow by words. Maybe I'm just being pedantic, and Bannon doesn't need me to defend him, but I am a bit sick of the derogatory rhetoric (racist, misogynistic, jingoistic, homophobic, redneck, etc.) being thrown around indiscriminately. Not to speak of time honored words like patriotism and nationalism being given new meanings with the intention to demean.

RE: Women in Engineering II

I'm not aware of anyone trying to give new meaning to the word "Patriotism". However, it's the word "Nationalism" which is problematic. That word has a long history of being used by isolationists, national socialists, racists, etc during some of the darkest days of our democracy and its recent reintroduction into the political debate does not bode well for the future of the nation. Trust me, there's only ONE person who's trying to change the meaning of the word "Nationalism" and he's NOT doing it for the benefit of our country, but as a nod and a wink to groups who until recently knew better then to show themselves but who are now being emboldened, the results of which we all witnessed over the last 10 days, starting with a guy in Kentucky who decided to look for black people to kill at a Kroger store because he couldn't get into a predominantly black church, which appears to have been his original target, then to a 'mass bomber' and finally to a anti-Semite who kills 11 people while they were in prayer, all because he was convinced that Jews were helping to bring 'invaders' into our country that were going to kill "his people", which we can only imagine what he meant by that.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

"Trust me", you are blaming the wrong person.

RE: Women in Engineering II

3

Quote:

And how did they get their better qualifications? Was it not through the status quo that favors whiter and more affluent children?

Funny, you're supposedly beating the drum against systemic racism while openly supporting systemic racism. A poor white kid should be treated no differently than a poor black kid when it comes to being awarded govt grants/scholarships/aid/etc plain and simple. The question of who gets aid should be the one who has done the best in school previously. As it stands now, we have many C-D students with free rides while A students struggle or cant afford to attend.

Quote:

However, it's the word "Nationalism" which is problematic.

"Democrat" has the same problem, yet its rare that folks discuss that problem despite being associated with a political party that's been openly supported and staffed by white supremacy groups/members for more than a century now.

Contrary to the extreme left's baloney, Bannon actually has been an ardent patriot in the same way the POTUS has been. He preaches supporting our allies overseas but only from a strong "America first" standpoint. There's nothing racist about that, basic first aid teaches that before you can care for others you must care for yourself....put on your own oxygen mask before helping others....etc. The only folks he's encouraging to show themselves and act are other patriots who have quietly stood by and watched our jobs and security disappear overseas while our rights disappear at home. Its nationalism as properly defined, not nationalism as twisted by some socialist politician or "journalist." I'd also offer that nationalism is a job requirement of every elected and appointed official which Bannon was.

RE: Women in Engineering II

"Funny, you're supposedly beating the drum against systemic racism while openly supporting systemic racism."

That's only if one actually believes that the status quo isn't stacked against non-affluent, non-whites and non-males, but the evidence is to the contrary; white males of any background still get the better jobs and better pay. White females do better than non-white females. To say that we should ignore that fact is to permanently bake in the systemic racism that already exists.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote (IRstuff)

That's only if one actually believes that the status quo isn't stacked against non-affluent, non-whites and non-males, but the evidence is to the contrary; white males of any background still get the better jobs and better pay

IRstuff, the obvious logical inconsistency in your argument is that Asians earn and have always earned considerably more than whites. Are you also saying that there is systemic racism against non-Asians? And if we are now excluding certain races from our arguments for the purpose of making an assertion, can we also say that the status quo is stacked against Blacks in favour of Hispanics?

RE: Women in Engineering II

And your argument is that blacks and Hispanics make less because they choose to, as do women, because if they are not being discriminated against, then the only explanation is that they want it so?

Or, if we're going there, they make less because they're not capable of earning more?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

IRstuff,
I think it is obviously the latter. The people, whatever the colour, who are less capable, earn less.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Seen from Europe (so, from Venus) this kind of graphs looks like it's from another dimension.
I know Golden retriever is a race, I did not know the other ones.
I did not know Apu makes more than the rest of us. He is Asian, right? India is in Asia last time I checked. But Indians come in all colors.
(troll mode off)
Seriously this kind of data may be eloquent but only if filtered for one category of jobs.

Question (ref. title of the thread), who is the "household head"? :P

RE: Women in Engineering II

We recently lost a co-worker who was an extremely talented Engineer.

The American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE), through its Philadelphia chapter has established a scholarship in honor of Debbie Kennoy who passed away on September 29, 2018. Debbie had represented Arkema Inc. at ASHRAE for over 20 years and was highly respected for her knowledge and willingness to help other members. The scholarship is going to be earmarked to support women in engineering from the Philadelphia area, a great tribute to Debbie. More information can be found here.

Founded in 1894, ASHRAE is a global society that works to advance human well-being through sustainable technology. They focus on building systems, energy efficiency, indoor air quality, refrigeration and sustainability within the industry.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Women in Engineering II

"I think it is obviously the latter. The people, whatever the colour, who are less capable, earn less."

So, there it is, the entirety of the blacks and Hispanics in the US are less capable than the whites and Asians, since the medians are lower? By extension, since the same argument could be applied to women, they must likewise be less capable.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

2

Quote (IRstuff)

And your argument is that blacks and Hispanics make less because they choose to, as do women, because if they are not being discriminated against, then the only explanation is that they want it so?

No, my point is that there are many reasons why there would be disparities in income between races or sex. But it seems to be in vogue at the moment that the 'evil white man' is the one and only reason why there are disparities. Focusing so heavily and dogmatically on this one theory, which has so many logical contradictions, makes everyone blinded from finding the actual reasons and alleviating the problem.

For example, the proportion of single parent families and its correspondence to racial disparities in income lines up far better than the 'evil white man' theory (https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-chil...). It is a more consistent indication of whether a family will be in poverty and it also explains why Asians would earn more than whites. Having a stable and solid family foundation with stable mother and father role models will increase a child's chance to have a stable education and career. Being a single parent raising a child by yourself will dramatically increase your chance of falling into poverty no matter what race you are, and this has multi-generational effects. But this is just one of many contributing reasons why there would be disparities, and the solution to this is far more complicated than blaming the 40 year old white man doing his 9 till 5 office job.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Do you think single parent families could be in fact propagated by disproportionate incarceration of minorities for crimes committed at similar rates among the majority? - Could those affects be multi-generational?

RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)
beej67, it did, indeed, happen here. One instance was in Boulder. I thought starting my own business would garner me a bit more respect, as if my work record, education, and licensure wouldn't, but it didn't. What I've heard as a woman business owner has been as interesting as being a direct employee.

Everywhere I have worked has been difficult because of some men. Not all but some. They were relentless enough to make life miserable. They really made me feel unwelcome. In some cases, I felt as though I wasn't welcome in the human species.

I realize not all women endure what I have but quite a number of us do. Again, I don't have percentages on it but I know I am far from alone. I am glad some women don't have that to contend with at work. I suspect, for me, a lot of my troubles have been because I am single. A lot of men will not put married women through hardships because they don't want to have an angry husband on their backs. Sad to say, it makes a difference.

I've never been cool or popular so I don't understand why the hardships unless they perceive me as a threat. That is what one female quasi-manager told me years ago, while I endured a severe test, with a gang of five men. Yes, you read it right, a gang of five men.

I'm talking to other women in STEM. They've experienced what I have.

Again, I love men but some really do a grave disservice to your gender.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)
Irstuff, I’m close and some I’ve already written off. There are only so many hours in the day. I was diagnosed with sibo and had more bad days. I can’t subject people to my crankiness on those days. But, I’m feeling much better and also working diligently to catch up. Now that I feel better I can see how very ill I was.

Greenone, I’m not too impressed with any personality profiling because moods shift so much and so many variables influence mood in all of us.

Thank you for helping to make things a bit easier for the next woman. We all have that responsibility to the younger people.

I never got upset about how I was addressed. What bothered me was the treatment because it was over the top. I don’t think most men would have stood for it either. And, to have been brushed off as you were was not even common courtesy let alone professional courtesy. Integrity and leadership don't act in ways that don't acknowledge someone's humanity.

*********************************************************************

After doing a lot of research, listening to people who have done the work of government or whatever, digging into history, digging into definitions, reading government processes, etc., I have a much different understanding of life than I did previously. Even old dogs can learn new tricks; I am proof.

I realize no one in this forum knows me, which adds to a lot of supposition. Rest assured I do not arise daily looking for offenses, ill treatment, gloom, doom, etc. That’s a terrible way to live life and there are more important aspects of life to chase and expect. I was always one to have a good time.

I take each person as they present themselves to me. I work diligently to not let others’ negative biases influence my own experiences with the objects of their ire. I do that personally as well as professionally. I’ve told more than one person that I don’t care to hear the negative because I want to form my own opinions. I’ve told more than one person that I don’t see the negative traits in others that they see.

Some acquaintances and friends have called me snowflake implying weakness. I assure you I am far from weak. I don’t expect or seek confrontation but I will certainly end one, after more than one fair warning has been given. That always surprises the people who are belligerent and start fights. Enforcement of boundaries is always a surprise to them because they’re so used to obliterating or ignoring the boundaries of others.

One white, male manager told me that I didn’t need to get paid as much as the male engineers because I was a woman. I wasn’t the bread winner supporting a wife and kids. A lot of them had working wives, as did the white, male manager that imparted his reasoning to me. So much for free market capitalism.

All of us have areas that need reflection and correction. I’ve not set myself up as the oracle of anything. Over the last several years and especially the last two years, I have come to realize that platitudes are just that, platitudes. People utter them as though they are oracles, with their full humanity on display.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

"But it seems to be in vogue at the moment that the 'evil white man' is the one and only reason why there are disparities. Focusing so heavily and dogmatically on this one theory, which has so many logical contradictions, makes everyone blinded from finding the actual reasons and alleviating the problem."

Well, perhaps for some, but the bottom line is Occam's Razor, white men are at the top of the pyramid, and the simplest explanation is that they clawed their way to the top and whether consciously or not, they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. The history of the US is chock full of examples of this. To deny this is to simply ignore history and the fact that people in power, of any stripe, tend to want to stay there. I think that this attack on vogueness is simply a realization that those that are out of power actually had figured it out and are now vocalizing it more and louder than ever before.

This argument is eerily similar to the arguments against climate change, it's not the evil humans, it's the cows, the volcanoes, or the solar constant is changing but we simply can't detect it or the data is fudged.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

That's only if one actually believes that the status quo isn't stacked against non-affluent, non-whites and non-males...

No, you're quite literally defending racism as quid-pro-quo. I'm sorry, but there is no defense or excuse for racism, period. Supremacists defend it in much the same manner - "helping" others by holding back those "bad" others. Take two kids of different races that are both from broken homes with few financial means. They BOTH deserve an EQUAL opportunity to be judged on THEIR merits with NO consideration of race, religion, or anything beyond their scholastic achievements. Anything less than that is simply racist.

RE: Women in Engineering II

"They BOTH deserve an EQUAL opportunity"

No disagreement, but they haven't had equal opportunity, ever, and certainly, they don't have it now; every test of racial and gender bias has shown that there are large disparities in opportunity, even when tested with resumes where only the name is changed.

The percentage of the population that agrees with white supremacy is at least 8%, possibly higher, given that 31% believe in that "white European heritage" needs to be protected.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

I think both in India and China, there are more women in engineering compared to other countries and they seldom meet with any discrimination-may be because promotions are on the basis of seniority, most of the time. I studied Engineering more than 50 years back and our batch had only couple of young women as students. But when I went to my college for a talk after 12 years of graduation, 30 % of the hall was packed with women. Today Iam told women % is more than men in most of the engineering colleges. Recently I found managers of steel fabrication shops ( part of transformer factories) of two factories -one in India, my earlier company!) and in China are women engineers. Operation Director of largest transmission Company (may be one of the largest in the world) of India is a lady. Rocket division of Indian Space agency is headed by a lady engineer.( ex my college)

RE: Women in Engineering II

In most of my experience with women program managers, they rarely been given their due respect. They've often been treated with derision, particularly from older men.

Aside from pure biases, there are simple "comfort" factors that will tend to select for commonality with the person making the decision. Men like to be working with other men, because of the "hey, didja catch the game last night?" are easy conversation starters with common experiences/culture. So, even if there are zero racist/sexist biases, people are simply less comfortable with strangers with strange cultures and non-shared experiences. If we were to magically make everyone un-racist, there would be little change in the status quo, because of the comfort factors.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

No one was upset? Maybe not that you noticed.
How about the time I was at a railroad engineers meeting, and the keynote speaker opened with "Welcome, gentlemen...". When I approached him afterwards, he brushed me off with it was no big deal. His perception was I had no right or reason to be upset at being addressed as gentlemen. This was in the 70's.
I'm not trying to get you to drive a Delorean back to then, I'm just asking that you consider the impact of language today.

I have a funny(?) water cooler story to share.

One of my family members is a relatively successful female fiction author, with an advanced degree from a well known private northern school with an internationally recognized football team. (enough clues) She is very liberal, both by my own read and her own pretty staunch admission, and in her late 30s. She returned to her alma mater to do an hour long talk in front of the literature students there, about her experiences as an author, the act of writing, and such. She talked for about 45 minutes about the topic of writing, to a relatively attentive audience. When she was done, she opened the floor for questions by saying "Do you ladies and gentlemen have any questions?"

The first response was, "Don't you think you should rephrase that so as not to offend or exclude those who identify as nonbinary?"

So she said, "Okay, you (F)ers, got any questions?"

The sponsoring professor did admit that that was a more gender neutral way to address the audience.

Not sure what lesson we learn from this, exactly, but it seems to me that what constitutes "offensive speech" is a very sliding scale, and even people who are doing their best to not offend are getting worn out by what's going on with today's growing "culture of offense." There has to be some threshold, somewhere, where we just say "tough it out." I'm not saying I know what that threshold is, but I know it's nonzero.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

I'm still trying to figure out which football team you are talking about.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Boston College is first on my mind.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Women in Engineering II

I was thinking of Notre Dame...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

Could be ND, I tend to associate Indiana with the mid-West, but that's me.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Women in Engineering II

Since beej67 appears to be located in Georgia (at least that's what E-Tips is reporting), therefore, Indiana would qualify as a "northern" local.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Women in Engineering II

Boo Notre Dame!

/Purdue Graduate.

Anyway, discussing beej67's story, I'm inclined to agree - to an extent. My personal opinion is that the student might be correct, however he or she probably needs to learn a better way of having people change behavior. Language to me is pretty dynamic and subject to change; so while the english language may have had nouns that were perceived as gender-neutral; they are no longer perceived that way by many, which may constitute a change in language. I'm not one to get upset at a persons use of gender-nouns; and in the scheme things, I think what the student did was bit "nit-picky".

RE: Women in Engineering II

It sounded to me to be an attempt to publicly ding an invited speaker; there's ALWAYS one of those in a crowd, looking to show how smart or better they are. It likely had zero to do with actual sympathy or empathy with the genders in question.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

No disagreement, but they haven't had equal opportunity...

Actually you are disagreeing with me. You're saying that its perfectly acceptable to discriminate against an individual based upon a stereotype. I'm saying that's never acceptable, plain and simple with no buts, ifs, or other nonsense.

RE: Women in Engineering II

beej's story is "only" the modern equivalent of the previous post; diversity has (seemingly) no limit. "you're all individuals"

so instead of being polite with "ladies and gentleman", the question boils down to "do you have any questions?" or ( to give meaning to "you") "I now throw it open to the audience, do you have any questions ?"

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Women in Engineering II

3
Let's go back to this one, because there's an issue of disjointed realities when this topic is discussed.

Quote (IRStuff)

Or that the fact that women have systematically been paid less for equal work not sexism?

There's a huge trend in the media to talk about 22 cents on the dollar, and then slip "equal work" in the back door of the discussion when "equal work" does not fit the 22% figure, statistically.

Obama's department of labor did a pretty exhaustive multivariate analysis on the gender wage gap in 2009. Link:

https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-pub...

After controlling for the confounders for which they had data, which would include "equal work," the wage gap shrunk to between 4% and 7%. Those confounders included choice of profession, choice to have kids, how many kids, how many years people take off of their professional careers to do other things (which may include children, or taking care of the elderly), whether you're a single parent, whether your household is a two income household, and such. It did not include things like personality type, or how aggressively the different genders tend to negotiate salaries, or how often they switch employers to chase a better paycheck, because they didn't have data for those. But each of those impacts salary as well.

So the salary impact of those things (personality typing, negotiation, etc) as well as workplace sexism, all must fit within that band of 4% to 7% differential.

If we're going to speak honestly about the gender wage gap, we need to acknowledge up front that sexism likely does play a part, but that the media is grossly overstating that part. And that analysis is almost a decade old. The band may have shrunk further.

There's also some touchy math we'd have to do regarding the male variability hypothesis, which was a thing that sexists used (very improperly) to justify sexim for a while, but non-sexists are finding unbiased evidence for in modern studies. So for instance, the median scores across genders on the ASVAB are basically the same, but the male bell curve is flatter, with more males appearing on both tails of the graph. (more smarter males, more dumber males) This wouldn't matter at all for the "22 cents on the dollar" math if the income distribution were linear, because the high and low variabilities in men would average out. But income distribution is not linear, and that nonlinearity is increasing, with a higher share of the income being increasingly concentrated in the bank accounts at the right hand side of the bell curve. So that's going to skew the numbers some. I can't say how much, maybe not a lot, but it's worth mentioning. It would probably take an actuary to unravel how significant that effect is, honestly.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Women in Engineering II

Bottom line from the report- "Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that
collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and
thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. "

https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-pub...

I tend to see/ hear the 20% gap reported more than the 6% figure.

Probably never know the truth but there has been a big change in industry over the last 30 years, something to celebrate.

Still much to do but I suspect based on my 20 year old daughters attitude the up and comers will take their place and not complain about any mistreatment real or imagined.

Which is how such matters should be resolved.

IMHO

RE: Women in Engineering II

2
"Which is how such matters should be resolved.

So, if they get harassed or assaulted, they should "not complain about any mistreatment real or imagined?"

The implication is that they will not put up with it and will take whatever steps are necessary to correct the situation.

One should not automatically default to a victim mentality. It is not a healthy or productive lifestyle.

Nor is constantly being in virtue signalling mode.

RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)
Wage gap, I never made as much as my male counterparts. I mentioned this a manager once and was told that I didn't need to earn what they earned, since I was female, unmarried, and no kids. The men were married and had kids and needed to earn more than me. So much for free markets.

I listened to a social scientist and a financier discuss the economy recently. Both said we like to work and deal with people that look like us. That homogeneity is dominate in finance and it's not healthy.

I don't think some men understand the work, upheaval, complaining, disruptions, etc. that women and others have to produce to effect change. I don't know any woman that really views herself as a victim even though she has certainly been. Often I didn't respond to any offenses. Women, more often than not, just tolerate discrimination and poor treatment and keep doing their jobs. That's my observation of the women I've worked with and others I know. I've tried to effect change, when problems got too severe. You have no idea how difficult that is. Most people thought I was very easy to work with. I learned trying to effect change for the severest problems that if one party is not interested, it won't happen. A plant manager once told a group of us how we looked and the most problematic engineers didn't care one durn bit. There was nothing I could do to change those relationships and HR was useless. Some of those men had been to "play nice with others" training 3-4 times and it hadn't worked. The trainer recognized them and knew how many times they had been through his training. He's a good trainer. And some white men are claiming victimhood and joining support groups, too. Women and others don't carry that mantra alone now.

Speaking for myself, I never anticipate any man discriminating against me because of my gender. Yet, it has happened and more than once. Again, if a man will tell me that by getting the engineering degree that I have taken a spot a man should have, who is being discriminated against? If my business, per that same man, should belong to a man, who is being discriminated against?

When I talk to people and hear stuff like that, they reveal how little they truly understand about how life works. I know because I've been guilty of it myself.

If you have integrity, you will want to treat people as your equal because you see their value, too. I suppose kindness will produce the same treatment of others.

Recently, someone used the term "narcissistic arrogance," which I think fits in a lot of ways today. We really need to get over ourselves and learn some humility. It matters greatly.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

I think the whole notion of "victimhood" is a combination of deflection and denial, not that different than accusing a rape victim of wearing provocative clothing, so women are sexually harassed because they wear "victimhood."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Women in Engineering II

Quote:

was told that I didn't need to earn what they earned, since I was female, unmarried, and no kids.

That's actually not an uncommon belief. In the military I often saw myself or other single soldiers tasked with holiday, weekend, or other undesireable duty hours/locations because we were single and didnt have family concerns. In the civilian world I've heard it several times planning layoffs - lay off the single folks first, they dont have families to consider. In both worlds I've seen a serious tendency for folks with family to get progressed through the ranks faster, and several sham marriages between parties in the same office(s) to effect that end. By far the worst IMHO tho was a manager when I worked in Indiana (they'll kill you with the Bible says this quiet Christian) that told me I needed to "stop living in sin if I wanted to do well" within the company.

Quote:

Again, if a man will tell me that by getting the engineering degree that I have taken a spot a man should have, who is being discriminated against?

Not to defend this one, but I do have one possible bone to pick with it. In my field I have noticed many engineering grads coming out of college wanting to be in non-engineering roles, usually some form of project management. I have also witnessed quite a few folks hired to fulfill an EO quota, only one of which actually engineered anything. While I do not have a sexist, racist, or other discriminatory bone in my body, I have stated my belief on several occasions that an engineering degree does not make an engineer nor is an engineer someone who only holds project management responsibilities. I've worked with enough highly educated PMPs to find that a bit insulting to them and a waste of an engineering position. IMHO, if an engineer isnt willing to learn to be a proper engineer then yes, they have taken a spot someone else should have.

OTOH, if you were in a proper engineering slot and actually engineering (or at least attempting to learn to) then my apologies, there's no excuse for that garbage.

RE: Women in Engineering II

With a brief look at the OP's business website, one would not need to adorn one's posts with CYA statements... one could just delete the sidetracked part in the middle and leave it at that.
The first part about considering family status in promotions or layoffs is well taken, however, and something that I might consider myself, if I were in that position. However, I still don't see how the gender of the engineer facing such a promotion or layoff would factor into that part of the decision.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

RE: Women in Engineering II

My post wasn't CYA'ing anything, simply trying to take the gender out of both situations and see other considerations in case anything could've been misconstrued. As a species we are great at many things but terrible at communicating. In the later case, yes, there are many folks in engineering slots who shouldn't be in them because they have no interest in engineering. Those folks want a secretary's job at an engineer's salary, not a profession requiring regular & difficult work. In the former, yes, guys hear the same nonsense about family too. My wife and I were almost thirty before living together, which we did for six(?) years before getting married and are still considering kids. I've heard my fair share about things which are nobody's business, and having worked with many senior engineers who "coasted" the last decade prior to retirement I don't agree with giving anyone preference on layoffs, income, or otherwise unless its deserved by current merit.

RE: Women in Engineering II

(OP)
IRStuff, interesting take on it. I may email you separately about that one.

CWB1, I got the engineering degree to do engineering and I love engineering. I really enjoyed engineering education, too. I love to learn.

I worked with a number of male and female engineers that got an engineering degree because it is a great stepping stone to other careers, such as project management, purchasing, law, medicine, etc. Many of them were very open about their plans, which I didn't and still don't have a problem with. They had the mental horsepower and funds to get an engineering degree and they should be able to do so. Higher education is not a lottery system.

I still do engineering and I still love engineering. But, I also, running my own company, have found I enjoy negotiating contracts, planning business, etc. I enjoy meeting others in the business world. Running my own business has opened my eyes a lot to how dynamic the world really is. I wouldn't have seen it any other way; I'm not smart enough and was too focused on plant work, as a direct employee.

I've had to pull holiday/weekend duty because I am single. I get that and don't mind pulling my fair share. I don't mind giving someone else a break. That's being thoughtful and kind, which I think should be a requirement for the human species. Tying my gender and marital status to career and pay are not that, in my mind.

I no longer consider myself a Christian so Bible people can say what they want; I don't buy it. I've learned way too much to ever believe it. And, all of my Christian friends walked away from me due to Lyme disease. I've been through it all completely alone. It was brutal. I've had a hard life but the rest of it has been a cakewalk compared to Lyme disease. When I survey my life and what I've been through, I find it amusing for people to call me weak and other things. If they only knew...

SparWeb, IMHO, you missed the point of the middle stuff and it wasn't CYA but an expression of thoughts based upon a previous post. smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program: http://nspe-co.org/events.php

RE: Women in Engineering II

It did sound like an attempt to create a link between gender and the too-common desire to study engineering with only management interests. I've seen my share of PM's who didn't become good engineers before attempting to manage projects, so maybe CWB's comments touched that nerve.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

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