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Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Here comes another big one (structural tower)

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

In case anyone else was as curious as I was about the health risks at the top of the tower without supplemental oxygen:
(assuming 1000m, since the elevation above sea level of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia is negligible)

Quote (http://www.webcitation.org/5zEnyu7K2)

Acclimatization is the process of the body adjusting to the decreased availability of oxygen at high altitudes. It is a slow process, taking place over a period of days to weeks.

High altitude is defined as:

- High Altitude: 1500 - 3500 m (5000 - 11500 ft)
- Very High Altitude: 3500 - 5500 m (11500 - 18000 ft)
- Extreme Altitude: above 5500 m
Practically speaking, however, we generally don't worry much about elevations below about 2500 m (8000 ft) since altitude illness rarely occurs lower than this.

Certain normal physiologic changes occur in every person who goes to altitude:

- Hyperventilation (breathing faster, deeper, or both)
- Shortness of breath during exertion
- Changed breathing pattern at night
- Awakening frequently at night
- Increased urination

So ... not really a concern. But I imagine mechanical engineers may soon have to consider oxygen plumbing if people keep trying to top the world record for tallest building! I suppose that's not unlike some hospital wards.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

With the thousand year conflict within Islam (between Sunni and Shiite) I can't see how these edifices will not become 'targets of opportunity' in the near future.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

My wife and I spent a long weekend in Colorado Springs this past August visiting some cousins (on both sides) while on our way to Michigan for vacation. While my wife had complained about feeling ill when we visited Mount Rushmore a few years ago we didn't attribute it to altitude sickness as we were only passing through and she recovered quickly. However, our visit to Colorado Springs, this was the first time we had spent any amount of time, more that 48 hours, above 6,000 feet, she became seriously ill and almost had to be hospitalized. Fortunately we were staying at my cousin's house and she's a retired RN. She kept watch on my wife and felt she was OK as long as we cancelled our planned trip to the top of Pike's Peak. Once we left Colorado and got down to the lower altitude of Kansas she completely recovered. I know that this is probably not a normal situation and those towers will still be much lower than the altitudes we experienced last summer, but altitude sickness is a real issue and there are many people who may not realize that they suffer from it if they only live at lower climes (we grew up in Michigan at about 900 ft altitude and currently live in SoCal at about 150 ft).

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

If you are skiing in Colorado at 8000 feet, it can be a problem. Not so at 3000 to 4000 feet. Do it all the time.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

I'm not a pilot, but 8000 ft sounds kind of low. Most Colorado/Utah ski resorts are higher than that. The City of Flagstaff is at 7000 ft. and the summit at Breckinridge is over 13,000 ft.

Back to the original topic: Frank Lloyd Wright proposed a mile high building




RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Well, my son went out of Denver (5000 feet) a few years back and was winded after skiing at only 8000 feet, twice what he was used to. I know there are higher runs there, but that would only be worse. Personally, I had no problems going over the continental divide at 12,000 feet, but I was not exerting myself then either. No worries.

Pretty soon the Saudi's will be building them so tall that when they fall, they will span over the Red Sea. Personally, I think they are trying to compete with Moses.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

@hawkaz:

I suppose it's a good thing no one paid Frank Lloyd Wright to design and build a mile high tower. Some of his every-day-sized buildings are falling apart after half a century. :)

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Not sure if this story, or something like it, is in the Koran, but these builders should do a quick review of chapters 10 and 11 of Genesis to see what happened the last time someone in the that part of the world tried to build a tower high enough to reach God.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

YMMV - a typical airliner at cruising altitude has cabin pressure at 6000 to 8000 ft altitude equivalent.

Tejon Pass on I-5 going north from Los Angeles is at about 4100 ft. Cajon Pass on I-15 to get to Vegas from Los Angeles is about 3800 ft.

Lake Tahoe is around 6000 ft, but you need to get up to about 7000 ft to get there from highway 50. The top of Heavenly is at about 10000 ft.

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RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

That's what led them to Babel(y)on.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

I just think it's pretty cool that mankind has reached the point where you can get altitude sickness (even if it's only John's wife) by taking an elevator in a building that rests near sea level, and chilling out on the balcony for a while. :)

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Pilot here. Supplemental oxygen is required for unpressurized aircraft for the flight crew above 12,500 feet for more than 30 minutes. Above 14,000 feet the crew needs oxygen immediately. Above 15,000 everyone on the plane needs oxygen.

The lowest I've seen someone show signs of altitude sickness from long-term exposure was also in Colorado Springs after a day or so there. This same person handled an hour flight with me at 7,500 feet with no issues.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

I flew to Boulder Colorado many years ago to visit some friends on a skiing vacation. I traveled there from upstate New York where I lived at an altitude that is slightly above sea level. We went skiing at Arapahoe Basin in the Rockies, and I spent 5+ hours skiing double black diamond trails at 10,780 - 13,000 feet. At the end of the day I had the worst headache that I've ever had in my life. I still remember how much it pounded. I could barely walk across the parking lot to get to the car. And I threw up along the way.

But once we got back down to the altitude of Boulder the headache was gone and I was perfectly fine.

Maui

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

As a completely off-topic aside people can buy small supplies of portable oxygen for just the scenario that Maui described. Crippling altitude sickness but not life threatening. Take a few hits to get back on your feet and make it down to lower altitudes. As an example (never used this myself): http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/8543?...

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

None of these fellows seem to be interested in the structure, JAE, just in the atmosphere up there. But then, considering its proposed location, I am not much interested either.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Hahahah, we have gotten a little off-topic. As for the structure is it going to be a predominantly reinforced concrete tower like the Burj Khalifa?

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

(OP)
My old boss from a previous life used to shake his head and say that tall towers like that were stupid efforts at bolstering someone's ego and to build that high was ridiculous.

I think there is a point where the vertical effort outweighs any actual benefit (cost/benefit) but on the other hand I celebrate people's freedom to attempt great things.

As far as altitude, Colorado Springs isn't that elevated - I've never had headaches there (been there many times) and I live at about 900 ft. or so.

However, once at 10,000 ft. plus I've had headaches.
The key is to drink lots of water before going to higher elevations and to get up there gradually...over a few days.

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RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Interesting that this monstrosity is to be called the "Kingdom Tower".

They think that this means the Saudi Royal's Kingdom? Personally, I do not think they have any idea of what "The Kingdom" is. They are clueless.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Atmospheric pressure change is exponential, at 18,000 ft. half the atmosphere is below you... half above you. In unpressurized aircraft, USAF requires flight crew members to be on oxygen starting at 10,000 ft. during daylight. At night, supplemental oxygen is required above 5000 ft. - night vision is the first sense affected. Passengers don't require oxygen until 14,000 ft. For pressurized aircraft the requirements vary depending on the type plane and the mission.

This does not conflict with the numbers that TME stated, just the difference between FAA and Air Force requirements.

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea
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RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

(OP)
I think the "dead zone" elevation at Mt. Everest is 24,000 ft. Above that most folks can't survive without oxygen.

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RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

True, but even sleeping overnight at 8000 ft can cause fatal embolisms. The cerebral ones hurt, the pulmonary ones kill you quite quickly, if not treated. You do acclimatise but it takes time and exercise. That's why on an Everest trek they limit you to 1000 ft of effective ascent per day, and on your 'rest' days you are expected to climb up and down some local peak. This exercise helps you acclimatise.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

SRE: Yeah, for FAA it's a recommendation to use oxygen above 5000 feet at night but not a requirement.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

If you build it they will come buy condos to flip.

A lot of these impressive buildings in that area are mostly investments, and actual occupancy is not that high.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Kinda like China, huh?

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Wikipedia has a bit more info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeddah_Tower

... actually far that I read just now. little info on actual construction.

I 'like' this tidbit: "...much of the intention of Jeddah Tower is to be symbolic as well as to raise the surrounding land value rather than its own profitability."

I wonder if the same money wouldnt be better spent on a solar desalination plant. If you build a huge solar tower power plant (to drive RO), you'd even have an excuise to build a freakin high tower and one-up your neighbors.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Dang, I thought my comment about oxygen was just going to be a random aside, separate from the core conversation... not a conversation starter on its own. lol. The internet at large should have taught me to know differently.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

JNieman, I'm glad I didn't ask the question about the hydraulic pressure on the sanitary sewers at the building base.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

What sewers?

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Hopefully they will plan for a better sewage handling scenario than the Burj Khalifa.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

I'm sure it would be interesting to see how they design the structure and solve problems related to its massive size, but overall I find these giant penile structures boring.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

(OP)

Quote:

...giant penile structures...

A very apt description! lol

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RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

And yet they allow women to look at these "penile structures".

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Yea, it's definitely an ego driven project, but I can't think of many humility-driven buildings that were all that interesting!

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Quote (JNieman)



I suppose it's a good thing no one paid Frank Lloyd Wright to design and build a mile high tower. Some of his every-day-sized buildings are falling apart after half a century. :)

I understand that most of his roofs leaked. In a tall tower, most of us would not be directly underneath the roof!

--
JHG

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Ron has always said that buried buildings are humble.

As for the Saudi tower, it would be far more functional if it went up and down.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Reminds me of the Citicorp Tower in NYC.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Of course these towers are also tourist attractions due to their height with many allowing the public access to observation levels at or near the top of the structures. Note that while I never did make it to the top of the World Trade Center, I have been to the observation levels of several TALL buildings/structures around the world including the Sears Tower (1354 ft - Chicago), Petronas Towers (1230 ft - Kuala Lumpur), Empire State Building (1224 ft - NYC), Eiffel Tower (896 ft - Paris), Rialto Towers (768 ft - Melbourne), Renaissance Center (696 ft - Detroit), Gateway Arch (630 ft - St. Louis) as well as few other edifices, which is pretty good for a guy who suffers from acrophobia (actually, glass elevators are the worse).

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

(actually, glass elevators are the worse)

Yes. They. Are. CN Tower in Toronto, 1st observation deck 1135 ft. Entrance into the elevator is made from the gift shop, if memory serves, so it was not readily apparent that the glass door I was pressed up against would be fully exposed and on the edge of the wild blue yonder for the duration of the ride. My nerves still tingle just thinking about it.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

I hate the platforms or elevators with the glass floors with the cracks in them. The cracks prevent you from seeing the view!

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

Interesting that this one seems to have the green light.

Unlike many others that have come before it and failed to launch.

I know my boss was involved in the schematic stage of the Nakheel Tower (1400m or 4600ft), but it fell through...

http://www.woodsbagot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/...

RE: Here comes another big one (structural tower)

The structural form looks to replicate that of the CN tower.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds - Albert Einstein

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