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Here comes another big one (structural tower)

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In case anyone else was as curious as I was about the health risks at the top of the tower without supplemental oxygen:
(assuming 1000m, since the elevation above sea level of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia is negligible)

[URL unfurl="true" said:
http://www.webcitation.org/5zEnyu7K2[/URL]]Acclimatization is the process of the body adjusting to the decreased availability of oxygen at high altitudes. It is a slow process, taking place over a period of days to weeks.

High altitude is defined as:

- High Altitude: 1500 - 3500 m (5000 - 11500 ft)
- Very High Altitude: 3500 - 5500 m (11500 - 18000 ft)
- Extreme Altitude: above 5500 m
Practically speaking, however, we generally don't worry much about elevations below about 2500 m (8000 ft) since altitude illness rarely occurs lower than this.

Certain normal physiologic changes occur in every person who goes to altitude:

- Hyperventilation (breathing faster, deeper, or both)
- Shortness of breath during exertion
- Changed breathing pattern at night
- Awakening frequently at night
- Increased urination
Click to expand...

So ... not really a concern. But I imagine mechanical engineers may soon have to consider oxygen plumbing if people keep trying to top the world record for tallest building! I suppose that's not unlike some hospital wards.
 
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With the thousand year conflict within Islam (between Sunni and Shiite) I can't see how these edifices will not become 'targets of opportunity' in the near future.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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My wife and I spent a long weekend in Colorado Springs this past August visiting some cousins (on both sides) while on our way to Michigan for vacation. While my wife had complained about feeling ill when we visited Mount Rushmore a few years ago we didn't attribute it to altitude sickness as we were only passing through and she recovered quickly. However, our visit to Colorado Springs, this was the first time we had spent any amount of time, more that 48 hours, above 6,000 feet, she became seriously ill and almost had to be hospitalized. Fortunately we were staying at my cousin's house and she's a retired RN. She kept watch on my wife and felt she was OK as long as we cancelled our planned trip to the top of Pike's Peak. Once we left Colorado and got down to the lower altitude of Kansas she completely recovered. I know that this is probably not a normal situation and those towers will still be much lower than the altitudes we experienced last summer, but altitude sickness is a real issue and there are many people who may not realize that they suffer from it if they only live at lower climes (we grew up in Michigan at about 900 ft altitude and currently live in SoCal at about 150 ft).

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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Back in flight school I seem to recall 8000 ft was the max without oxygen, not that I got up that high in our Cessna 150/152's.

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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If you are skiing in Colorado at 8000 feet, it can be a problem. Not so at 3000 to 4000 feet. Do it all the time.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


 
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I'm not a pilot, but 8000 ft sounds kind of low. Most Colorado/Utah ski resorts are higher than that. The City of Flagstaff is at 7000 ft. and the summit at Breckinridge is over 13,000 ft.

Back to the original topic: Frank Lloyd Wright proposed a mile high building




 
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Well, my son went out of Denver (5000 feet) a few years back and was winded after skiing at only 8000 feet, twice what he was used to. I know there are higher runs there, but that would only be worse. Personally, I had no problems going over the continental divide at 12,000 feet, but I was not exerting myself then either. No worries.

Pretty soon the Saudi's will be building them so tall that when they fall, they will span over the Red Sea. Personally, I think they are trying to compete with Moses.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


 
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@hawkaz:

I suppose it's a good thing no one paid Frank Lloyd Wright to design and build a mile high tower. Some of his every-day-sized buildings are falling apart after half a century. :)
 
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Not sure if this story, or something like it, is in the Koran, but these builders should do a quick review of chapters 10 and 11 of Genesis to see what happened the last time someone in the that part of the world tried to build a tower high enough to reach God.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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YMMV - a typical airliner at cruising altitude has cabin pressure at 6000 to 8000 ft altitude equivalent.

Tejon Pass on I-5 going north from Los Angeles is at about 4100 ft. Cajon Pass on I-15 to get to Vegas from Los Angeles is about 3800 ft.

Lake Tahoe is around 6000 ft, but you need to get up to about 7000 ft to get there from highway 50. The top of Heavenly is at about 10000 ft.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
 
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That's what led them to Babel(y)on.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


 
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I just think it's pretty cool that mankind has reached the point where you can get altitude sickness (even if it's only John's wife) by taking an elevator in a building that rests near sea level, and chilling out on the balcony for a while. :)
 
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Pilot here. Supplemental oxygen is required for unpressurized aircraft for the flight crew above 12,500 feet for more than 30 minutes. Above 14,000 feet the crew needs oxygen immediately. Above 15,000 everyone on the plane needs oxygen.

The lowest I've seen someone show signs of altitude sickness from long-term exposure was also in Colorado Springs after a day or so there. This same person handled an hour flight with me at 7,500 feet with no issues.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
 
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I flew to Boulder Colorado many years ago to visit some friends on a skiing vacation. I traveled there from upstate New York where I lived at an altitude that is slightly above sea level. We went skiing at Arapahoe Basin in the Rockies, and I spent 5+ hours skiing double black diamond trails at 10,780 - 13,000 feet. At the end of the day I had the worst headache that I've ever had in my life. I still remember how much it pounded. I could barely walk across the parking lot to get to the car. And I threw up along the way.

But once we got back down to the altitude of Boulder the headache was gone and I was perfectly fine.

Maui

 
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As a completely off-topic aside people can buy small supplies of portable oxygen for just the scenario that Maui described. Crippling altitude sickness but not life threatening. Take a few hits to get back on your feet and make it down to lower altitudes. As an example (never used this myself):
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
 
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None of these fellows seem to be interested in the structure, JAE, just in the atmosphere up there. But then, considering its proposed location, I am not much interested either.
 
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Hahahah, we have gotten a little off-topic. As for the structure is it going to be a predominantly reinforced concrete tower like the Burj Khalifa?

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
 
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My old boss from a previous life used to shake his head and say that tall towers like that were stupid efforts at bolstering someone's ego and to build that high was ridiculous.

I think there is a point where the vertical effort outweighs any actual benefit (cost/benefit) but on the other hand I celebrate people's freedom to attempt great things.

As far as altitude, Colorado Springs isn't that elevated - I've never had headaches there (been there many times) and I live at about 900 ft. or so.

However, once at 10,000 ft. plus I've had headaches.
The key is to drink lots of water before going to higher elevations and to get up there gradually...over a few days.


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Interesting that this monstrosity is to be called the "Kingdom Tower".

They think that this means the Saudi Royal's Kingdom? Personally, I do not think they have any idea of what "The Kingdom" is. They are clueless.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


 
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