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Client Who Won't Pay

Client Who Won't Pay

Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
I recently did some work as an expert witness. The lawyer hired a search firm that found me. I signed a contract with the search firm that said in effect I would submit invoices and they would pay them within 60 days of the invoice date. The contract says NOTHING about the law firm paying the search firm or the defendant (in this case) paying the law firm. Just that the search firm would pay me. I have two invoices that have both gone over 90 days old. I (long since) contacted the search firm and was told "we know that your contract does not specify that you have to wait until we get paid, but we don't have the money to pay you so forget it." The snotty, cavalier response set me off, but I decided to wait until the first of December (when one invoice will be 150 days and the other will be 120 days old) before doing anything like visiting my lawyer (which I'd rather avoid paying for).

I've been in business for 12 years and this is the very very first time that I've ever had an invoice pass 90 days unpaid. I know, I have been outrageously lucky (or really good at not working for deadbeats). The norm seems to be some percentage of invoices that never get paid. How do you guys go after deadbeat clients? Combined, these guys are into me for nearly $100k so small claims is out of the question. I have written very strongly worded e-mails to all of the officers of the company. All I can think of remaining is to sue them, but I'm in New Mexico and the contract says that the court of jurisdiction is New York so suing them gets pricey (although the contract does allow prevailing party to collect legal fees, it may be a while before I see any of it and I don't want to be out of pocket any more than I already am).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David...a few comments....

Though the horse is out of the barn, signing a contract with a jurisdiction outside your general locale is always difficult. You might be able to get that part of the contract set aside though, particularly if you did services in your own state of residence and primary practice. You might have some luck with going back to the law firm for which you provided services. They might be willing to pay you or help you get paid, particularly if your service was beneficial to their outcome. Chances are they have a client with a deep pocket or good insurance, so maybe you'll find something there.

Search and referral firms are often low on assets and can disappear quickly. If you can trace the ownership, you might have some recourse legally, but it will cost you. Also, many attorneys who specialize in collections often work on a contingency, though it is usually high (40-50 percent).....but then 50 percent of something is better than nothing. Ideally you could prove this is a pattern of action by the company and their practice could be fraudulent. That might get some punitive damages in there! Your lawyer will be amazingly valuable in the contractual advice, assuming he/she is contact savvy.

Their attitude would piss anyone off. They have no sense of ethics.

Good luck. This one might have been an expensive lesson in contract review and client vetting.

Ron

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Good advice Ron. With my usual clients, the MSA is take it or leave it (I've refused to sign a bunch of them, but if you want the work you sign the contract) so I'm in the habit of treating contracts as a go-no-go and either sign it as is or walk away from the work. Never would have thought of arguing over the jurisdiction language. I will now.

I've had such a run of good luck with search firms that I never even asked myself the question "what do I do if they don't pay?". I have talked to the lawyer I was working with and the ultimate client is in to them for a bunch of money (3 partners in the firm and a bunch of associates full time for over a year and no payment since February) so he's not going to be a lot of help.

I get cold calls for expert witness stuff several times a month, I always look at the complaint and see if I can support the position they want me to support (mostly I can't and walk away), but next time even before reviewing the complaint I'm going to vet the firm. Live and learn.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David:

Judges generally will get really pissed off if an expert witness is not paid. Just a hint...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

New York...maybe you can get Vito and Tony to pay them a visit.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Ps.: Take Mike's hint.

I took a few beatings when I ran my one-man office. I walked away from trying to collect because of the anger it caused in me. I never did get rich but I survived. It happens to all of us.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David,
In this case you need a lawyer who specializes in collections. You may have to bankrupt the search company.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David,
Mike's right. I had to go to the judge presiding over a case once to get paid by the attorney. He was not happy with the attorney and by the time he was through with him, the only one happy was me!

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

It is a dog-eat-dog world which we have created, don't be so surprised.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

....and to quote "Norm"....we're all wearing Milkbone underwear

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

zdas04, would it of made a difference to you in taking the work, if the contract would have had said "paid when paid?"
In our company, we won't (maybe can't) pay our subcontractors until our client ponies up. We can't be loaning money to our clients by paying our subcontractors 60 days before we get the money. I'm not sure how this is spelled out in our contracts, but I'm sure it's clear.
It's kind of apples and oranges, since you had a different arrangement. But I wonder about the business acumen of any entity who would guarantee payment before they get the money.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
JedClampett,
I wouldn't have signed a contract that said "paid when paid". I would not work through your company if that is your contract language. In that situation I would have no influence on how aggressively your company was pursuing payment and I don't do passive very well. In a situation like that I would either walk or I would sign a contract with your client (with the agreement of your firm).

The search firm had two tasks: (1) find someone for the job; and (2) pay them. For that the search firm added 25% to my invoices. Over the whole relationship they've made considerable money for no ongoing work. For that obligation to pay me, they made a bunch of money. They failed to meet even that minimal obligation.

I've worked through third parties before, and this is always the deal. One of them in London (the client was in South Africa) guaranteed payment within 7 days and met it every time--they were averaging 85 days in getting paid by the company that I was working for, but the third party had their business structured to provide the float for a substantial fee, nothing wrong with their business acumen, just a different business model than yours. I though I was getting a deal like I had in London here, but I was wrong.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

"Pay When Paid" usually is a euphemism for "Pay If Paid"! I don't generally sign those contracts either. Another bad one is a "pass through" where you are obligated "second hand" to your client's contract with someone else and you don't even get an opportunity to review the client's contract. That could be the case here where the referral firm had a contract with the law firm with "pass through" provisions that you got stuck with.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
The way I read my contract (and the search firm agreed with my understanding) was that it absolutely was not a passthru contract. They are obligated (and admit it) to pay any invoice submitted in a timely manner, in the proper form that is not rejected by the client in a timely manner (2 weeks). They acknowledged that they owe the money, but stated that they don't care and are unwilling to "provide loans to big legal firms or big Texas Oil & Gas firms", they think that it is more appropriate for me to provide loans to sleezy search firms. I just keep getting angrier. I'm approaching the point where I'd be willing to pay most of the owed amount to cause them pain. I'm still going to let is soak until after the first of the month, but it is getting harder.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Can't blame you David. I'd be seething as well. Yes, it is sometimes worth a net zero just to make their life as miserable as they made yours!

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Take it to the Judge, David. This is no joke.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
I would, but the case is the new "Inter Parte Patent Review" process and there really isn't a "judge" to take it to. In my deposition there was a procedural issue that came up and the other side's lawyer called the clerk and she rounded up 3 random judges to hear the issue. The lawyer on my side said he had never heard of any of them and when all the documents were together there would be a different panel to review them and hear arguments. It is a strange process.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David ,
Bankrupt the search firm and get an official receiver appointed.
When a company enters bankruptcy, a trustee is appointed to liquidate the company's assets and use the proceeds to pay the creditors. The money owed them is one of the company’s assets.

If they do not pay the debt, they will face collection efforts. Since the company is going through bankruptcy, it will generally use an outside collection agency or third party collection agency. Once the money is collected, it goes to the trustee who then pays the company's creditors.
B.E.


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Are there any clauses in the contract that provide relief to one of the parties if the other side breaches the terms? In the future make sure any such agreements you sign have explicit clauses involving breach of contract, non-payment, and relief.

Do you have the part where they admit they owe you the money and not the firm they connected to you, in writing? An email from a company representative or employee? If so it may make your life a little easier later.

Hire a New York lawyer to write a letter outlining your intention to sue them for the amount owed plus damages plus legal fees if they don't pay within 30 days. If they don't respond to a legal threat, they aren't going to pay you the money without being sued, ever. At that point you have to decide if you're willing to pay for lawsuit to try to recover the money, bearing in mind that just because the contract said legal expenses could be covered, that doesn't mean you'll win them nor that the amount you win will cover all of your fees.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Can you sell the debt to a collection agency?

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
TheTick,
It still is a bit early to take that kind of hit, those guys charge a lot. Taking them to court would probably be around 4% of the total (recoverable by contract), collection would be around 50% (not recoverable).

allgoodnamestaken,
Not my first rodeo. The language on default includes the losing party in the suit being liable for legal fees. I do have their agreement that they are obligated to pay me regardless of who does or does not pay them in writing. Basically they are saying "we don't have the money until we get paid, sucks to be you". The guy has called a couple of times and keeps saying "we don't have it", and when I reply that if someone has to get a bridge loan, it really should be them. To that they reply, "well, it won't be us". When I asked "are you paying your light bill?", they say "yes, those guys will turn off the lights. Your project is over, what are you going to turn off?". The guy I talked to last week said that they intend to pay as soon as they get paid, but not before.

The law firm I've been working with asked me to destroy all information I had received through them from the defendant by December 7 (standard settlement requirement). I replied with "I am unable to put any additional work on this project until I get paid, and [the search] firm has indicated that they have no intention of paying" with copies to all of the corporate officers in the search firm. Apparently several of them had pretty heated conversations with the law firm. If it queers that consent decree then all the better. I have no patience with people who don't pay their bills.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

"...what are you going to turn off?". How about their corporate business license to practice?

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

So there is still a quid pro co. You have something the law firm would like to see destroyed. And you are unable to do that until you get paid.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David...good reply to the law firm. Have you considered Guido? lol

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Oh, have I considered Guido? I know a bunch of bomb techs too. But at the end of the day I would be out of pocket with those sorts of options and would never get paid. Lose-lose even if it feels good.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

I don't like spite, but I believe it has its uses. Even if I get nothing, they must pay their pound of flesh.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

But only flesh, Tick, only flesh.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Leave a bad yelp or google review, that'll learn 'em! :P

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

You have something that the law firm does not want sold or published.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
I do, but I'd rather not burn that bridge (they do a lot of patent suits in Oil & Gas and there aren't a lot of people putting themselves out as Experts in that field who are also patent holders, I'm thinking that once I eventually get paid, I'll notify the search firm that with their default our contract is void and notify the law firm that I'm available without paying the search firm's commission). I'm just hoping that the Law Firm is successful at applying pressure on their client to pay, but that isn't going all that well either.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

The law firm should cover you, as they have the money, even if they have not been paid. That would just be the right thing to do. After all, it is that time of the year, right? Moving on...

If they want, they could also blacklist the other firm under the table and effectively shut them down through a little communication. Not hard to do with the proper network. But I never said that, did I?...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

From the law firm's perspective, I wouldn't want to work with a search firm that will continue to alienate their clientelle when it suits them... it would eventually become an albatross around the law firm's neck, too, as they run out of expert witnesses who won't be burned twice.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Go get 'em David- these people are deadbeats and you need to teach them a lesson. I can guarantee you that you are not the first person they've stiffed.

When your product is services, you have a very hard time repossessing what you've delivered. If a client has no assets we can seize in the case of nonpayment, we handle that by means of an up-front retainer equal to an estimate of the last payment we expect to receive from them. If a payment is overdue, we stop work that day and the retainer covers us against being stiffed. If a client can't or won't pony up the retainer, we don't do the work. I'm sure that turns some potential clients off, but since we're employee owned, bad debts come out of our own pockets. We'd rather turn away business than be stiffed by people.

We honour our payment commitments to our subs based on the payment terms we agree with them before starting work. We negotiate payment terms with our clients separately. If a client is late paying us, we don't use that as an excuse to delay payment to our subs- that's what operating lines of credit are for, and why late payments are assessed interest. The only time we're late paying subs is when somebody screws up, misplaces an invoice etc., or when there's a matter of noncompliance where delayed payment is used as a lever to get the issue resolved. That's how solvent businesses behave in my opinion. I'm sure there are fields of business where "you get paid after we get paid" is the norm, and I'm very glad I don't work in one.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Moltenmetal,
Great point about the retainer. In fact, the search firm demanded a retainer before they would commit to telling me about the project. When I asked them about it, they said that they had paid it out to me for earlier invoices that the plaintiff was late paying them. In the future I'm going to look at getting a retainer prior to committing.

I run my business exactly the way that you run yours. I recently had a vessel built for a client and the fab shop wouldn't sign an agreement with the (international) client so I contracted with them. When the fab shop's invoice came due, I paid it and then had to wait another 30 days to get paid for it. No problem, I had added a "carrying cost" to the price I quoted on the vessel to pay for any bridge loans that slow payment might require. In the end everyone lived up to their contracts and life was good. It is when people take contract terms as "guidelines" (like the "Pirate Code" in Pirates of the Caribbean) that things get ugly.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

I ALWAYS get a retainer, and in legal cases, enough to cover 2/3 of the anticipated work prior to any court appearances. No exceptions. To me, if a client balks at that, there could be problems later.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
msquared,
That sounds like good advice. At what point in the process do you start drawing the retainer down? I've been on 7 cases that I thought were about half over when the case settled and my work stopped cold. I suppose I could take the last invoice out of the retainer and refund the rest.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David:

I try to get 90% of the time I expect to spend with the 2/3 retainer before any court action. That minimizes any losses to me, and has been workable and reasonable for the client.

If the client proves good over time, as with any client, I will relax that some, but not too much, as with any other type of project. I am still not a bank here, as you well know.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David....I also get a retainer, especially for new clients. I generally ask for a 10 hour retainer and I will bill against that for 1/2 the retainer, then hold the rest of the retainer for the final billing. For larger or long term projects, a larger retainer is necessary. I have required a $25k retainer on at least 1 project and similar on others.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Good to know. $25k is 1/4 of what I'm currently being stiffed for, but it would have at least covered my out of pocket expenses on this project.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

At 100k David, this is worth a court battle.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
It is, I'm working on timing and logistics.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

If they're in New York, call up Guido. He'll take care of it for you.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Well there was a twist in yesterday's mail. Of the $100 k about $7.4k was out of pocket expenses. I got a check yesterday from the search firm for the out of pocket amount. Not going to cash it until I talk to my lawyer, but I'm really curious about whether this puts me in a stronger position (the counterfoil showed the full amount pending and was clearly marked "partial pay" not "paid in full") because of their acknowledgement of the total amount on a check counterfoil. Or if it puts me in a weaker position since they made an effort to partially pay the bill.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

I agree about not depositing anything until you've talked to a lawyer. Pending doesn't mean much from a client who refused to pay previously. You also want interest payments on the amount due beyond the 60 day period, or you've given them an interest free loan they weren't willing to extend to others.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Not a lawyer, but I would deposit the check. Keep a copy.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

A side story about depositing the check (and why it shouldn't be done before consulting your attorney).

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... I dated a rental property manager for several years. You tend to pick up a few things over such a time period. One of those things was "Do not accept a partial payment for funds owed. It's full payment or nothing." If a renter was being evicted for failure to pay, they had 90 days to (make good faith attempts to) pay their debt. Of course, even a single penny was considered a good faith attempt, so if the penny was accepted, the 90-day clock started fresh. That clock was reset on more than one account because the rental agent didn't look up from their desk before accepting a $10 check.

Talk to that lawyer...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Dan,
That story is true, but it is based on contract language and rental law. The local government has an interest in people not being evicted, so they tend to write in that good-faith stuff in regulations about renting. They don't have that interest in business to business contracts.

When I was with Amoco, their policy was that every single penny that came in was immediately deposited. It didn't matter if it was an over-payment, an under-payment, or a payment in dispute (we would often get letters saying "by accepting the enclosed check, you are agreeing to ...", and we would deposit the check and when the party tried to enforce what they claimed we were agreeing to we would just say "the only mechanism we have to handle checks is to deposit them, we deposit them without prejudice or committment") and it held up in court every time).

I'm not going to cash the check until I confirm with a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that this is just an excess of caution.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

zdas04: we have a similar policy, and have never had an issue either- but lawyers are of course necessary for advice on legal issues like this.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David ,
I do not know what the law is in your state, but in some states, if you have a bill due and payable for services rendered, and you accept partial payment, you have just extended credit to that person or entity.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Pleasant surprise in yesterday's mail--payment in full. 90 days past due, is better than forever past due. I have an appointment with my lawyer for right after the new year, payment changes that discussion (now I just want to know how to void the contract so I can still work with the lawyer without going through the search firm). Definitely not ever working through that firm again.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Nice Christmas present! Congrats!

See if the terms of the contract address late payment. One would hope and think that late payment constitutes breach of contract.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
Not explicitly. That's why I'm keeping the appointment with my Lawyer.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Wonderful news- though I was looking forward to you tearing those idiots a new one!

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

David:

If you are able to legally, without jeopardizing your position, can you let us know the name of the search firm?

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
I'm pretty sure that my insurance company would have kittens if I did that. While I'm a fan of kittens, I'm not a fan of getting canceled.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Ok. Understand.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Congratulations on getting your money David. The question now, is would it have come anyway, if you had done nothing?
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
I really will never know. When I refused to spend the time required to destroy confidential data for the Lawyer, my e-mail was forwarded to the Lawyer's client and they paid the search firm within a week. I am starting to believe that the search firm was going to pay me when they got paid (and that they resented my assertion to the lawyer [with a copy to the search firm's entire board of directors] that they said they had no intention of ever paying), but there is no way to know now. Shining a very bright light on the problem by withholding something the Plaintiff was obligated by the court to do seemed to get thing moving nicely.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Yes the quid pro co. seems to have been the trick.
Congratulations again.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

congrats on getting paid!

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

I don't feel like that's something to congratulate him for, it should simply be like that without hassle.
I do get the nature of the gesture, but it's still a bad signal, congratulating someone for getting paid 90 days past due..

Nevertheless, zdas, good for you for taking the necessary actions without doing stupid things.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

Yeah, well,

Hey, dude, Congrats for breaking your arm!
(Breaking both legs would be worse)

See my point?

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

I think you need to work on your analogy skills, kingnero.

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

True, not my strong suit.

just one more try to get my point across, and then I'll go annoy someone else:

premium option would be: getting paid immediately.
second would be: getting paid on or just before due date.
from here on, it's only going downhill.
#3 : getting paid 90 days past due
#4: 180 days past
...
# last: not getting paid, and deep into the red because of all legal actions you've been forced to take.

Getting paid according to option number 1 or 2 should be considered the standard option, and about the only reasonable option.
Congratulating someone for arriving at option #3 is not a logic thing to do,
You'll always find worse options, so I din't think it's valid point to say that it's better than 180 days...


Having an office of my own, I fully understand the misery that comes with this situation, the time you put into this and the time you worry about it. And the money it costs you. aso.
I'd certainly not be happy with someone congratulating me with option #3; I'd much rather he'd go cursing the client (figure of speech, off course).

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

The most dissapointed athlete on the podium is usually the one getting the silver medal.

So, congrats on your silver medal, Zdas!

STF

RE: Client Who Won't Pay

(OP)
SparWeb,
That about explains my feelings. I got what they owed me. You can have good, cheep, or quick, pick one, but it wasn't cheep or quick.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

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