Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations cowski on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Historic Steel Pipe Columns
- Thread starter TCSE
- Start date
AISC Design Guide 15 has all the old shapes from way back.
Found here:
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376
Found here:
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376
- Thread starter
- #3
SlideRuleEra
Structural
TCSE - It would be very unusual for a 1908 round column to be steel. Cast iron was the material of choice for round columns until the 1920's. If the column you have is steel, it may have been installed later. If it is cast iron, go to this page of my website:
Any of the handbooks the handbooks there will have loading info for round cast iron columns. I suggest looking at pages 288 - 290 of the 1909 Cambria Steel Handbook.
![[idea]](/data/assets/smilies/idea.gif "[idea] [idea]")
![[r2d2]](/data/assets/smilies/r2d2.gif "[r2d2] [r2d2]")
Any of the handbooks the handbooks there will have loading info for round cast iron columns. I suggest looking at pages 288 - 290 of the 1909 Cambria Steel Handbook.
- Thread starter
- #6
Thanks. There's a steel beam seat welded to it which makes me think it's steel. There's also a bolted connection from the steel beam to the beam seat which I'm still investigating. This is in the 1st story of a 4 story historic building and supports concrete walls above so I believe the column is original construction.
- Thread starter
- #7
- Thread starter
- #8
SlideRuleEra
Structural
The earliest reference that I know of for steel pipe columns is in F.E. Kidder's "Building Construction", 1913. Perhaps your building is one of the early adopters of steel columns instead of iron. Pipe wall thickness for steel will need to be determined. Wall thickness for cast iron columns was well established for the various diameters by the early 20th century.
See pages of 696 - 698, and 849 - 854, of Kidder's book:
Perhaps you could run the calcs for both steel and iron. With a little luck, you may find that either would be acceptable... or that neither will work for your application.
K&E Decilon... impressive! I used the comparable Pickett N4-ES
See pages of 696 - 698, and 849 - 854, of Kidder's book:
Perhaps you could run the calcs for both steel and iron. With a little luck, you may find that either would be acceptable... or that neither will work for your application.
K&E Decilon... impressive! I used the comparable Pickett N4-ES
racookpe1978
Nuclear
Arc "Welding" of any kind was rare before WWII ship building forced changes in riveting techniques.
And they learned a lot then, but in 1908? I suspect the angle iron attachment is a "later detail" added with no QA and probably no NDE and probably no welding procedure or preheat or confirmed electrodes.
The round surface in your photo doesn't look like "steel" but has the coarser "feel" of a cast iron column. What does the rest of the column look like? End pieces? Caps? Ornamental ends or flutes or decorations? Once a cast mold is made, the old guys usually added embellishments and decorations to mimic stone columns if they could afford it. The extra decorations don't cost much after the first mold is carved.
Welding to cast iron can produce a "sticky joint" but you really don't know how strong it is.
If visible, treat the column like an ornamental piece, and remove the weld. Do something else to replace the suspect joint. If invisible, replace the column and salvage the cast iron - others WILL want it in other projects.
And they learned a lot then, but in 1908? I suspect the angle iron attachment is a "later detail" added with no QA and probably no NDE and probably no welding procedure or preheat or confirmed electrodes.
The round surface in your photo doesn't look like "steel" but has the coarser "feel" of a cast iron column. What does the rest of the column look like? End pieces? Caps? Ornamental ends or flutes or decorations? Once a cast mold is made, the old guys usually added embellishments and decorations to mimic stone columns if they could afford it. The extra decorations don't cost much after the first mold is carved.
Welding to cast iron can produce a "sticky joint" but you really don't know how strong it is.
If visible, treat the column like an ornamental piece, and remove the weld. Do something else to replace the suspect joint. If invisible, replace the column and salvage the cast iron - others WILL want it in other projects.
LittleInch
Petroleum
Are you sure that beam seat is welded? Looks from here like it was part of the original casting. Is there a support Web under neath?
My motto: Learn something new every day
Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way
My motto: Learn something new every day
Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way
- Thread starter
- #12
racookpe1978
Nuclear
TCSE - replying to SlideRule Era said:
I started college with a slide rule, but I had competed in slide rule in high school, so I was more comfortable with them than many. Changed to one of the early (very expensive! 200 dollar+) HP calculators near the end of my sophomore year for ME 213 (dynamics), and haven't done anything with them since.
I have done a number of jobs lately that involve Cast Iron Columns (circa 1900 to 1910)in former retail stores that are being converted /repurposed into combo retail/residential units and the seat you refer to is cast into the column when it is sand cast.
If you have to anchor a new seat into the CI Column consider Lindapter Expanding Wedge bolts or Boxx Bolts (same thing).
I have reinforced these type of hollow Cast Iron columns by installing a small diameter rebar cage and filling them with concrete mix w/ 1/4" aggregate.
If you have to anchor a new seat into the CI Column consider Lindapter Expanding Wedge bolts or Boxx Bolts (same thing).
I have reinforced these type of hollow Cast Iron columns by installing a small diameter rebar cage and filling them with concrete mix w/ 1/4" aggregate.
- Thread starter
- #15
Thanks yaschief.
I drilled a hole in the column to find the wall thickness and confirmed it on two of the columns with UT. It was 1 1/4" thick and very hard. That has to be cast iron. That was my conclusion on the seats too, the seats are cast with the columns. And thanks to slideruleera. I don't know if I could have found the old cast iron manuals without his help.
I was never able to find any information on structural steel pipe including when it was first made.
I drilled a hole in the column to find the wall thickness and confirmed it on two of the columns with UT. It was 1 1/4" thick and very hard. That has to be cast iron. That was my conclusion on the seats too, the seats are cast with the columns. And thanks to slideruleera. I don't know if I could have found the old cast iron manuals without his help.
I was never able to find any information on structural steel pipe including when it was first made.
Hi TCSE,
Did you analyse the seat to determine if it will hold up the new load?
If you did how did you analyse it?
Have you done any calcs, have you checked any allowable stresses?
I would be interested to know since i have same situation to deal with.
Thanks.
Did you analyse the seat to determine if it will hold up the new load?
If you did how did you analyse it?
Have you done any calcs, have you checked any allowable stresses?
I would be interested to know since i have same situation to deal with.
Thanks.
- Thread starter
- #18
- Status
Similar threads
- Question
- Question
