Is it my misconception or am I wron 3

No, you are not wrong, there are a lot of people in the working world that are only engineers by title and have no degree. Is this right, no. But they are doing a job that can endanger people and I can only wonder what would happen if they decided agains asking real engineers the question and decided the anser without help.

Most of the time this is occuring in industry, who typically can not afford real engineers. Under "industry exempt" status, it gets real fuzzy what the defination of engineer is. Most of the time, the ability to work a 40 hour week is qualification enough.

For those of you out there that read this and feel differently, pleas comment. I am a degreed engineer with a professional license and I would love to hear what the other side is thinking.

BobPE

This one is a hot potato.
Firstly I agree with both Dicksewerrat & BobPe, but I don't see how you can stop "non engineers" putting questions or for that matter answers on the site.

However a small thought for us to reflect on :
Does a recently qualified engineer have the knowledge and experience of say someone who has had 15 / 20 years or more in a industry working along side engineers, installing, servicing & repairing equipment and the like, which may have given him / her a much better understanding of particular industries problems and operational requirements than a young engineer.
I have seen many many young engineers & for that matter older ones with no or very little experience of the application and its associated problems, offer advice to clients, who in turn have followed their advice to there bitter cost.
So who does the client use ?? thats the million dollar question.

Electricsub

Thanks for the replies. What I am wondering about is the simple questions. 'How to convert the cubic yds of asphalt to tons, finding head loss in a pipe'. These are the elementary things you learn before any engineering classes at school. And these people pretend to be engineers. It scares me that these people may be as Electricsub puts it offering advice to people that may have paid for a P.E. and got a wantabe Engr.

Don't forget this is an open forum to the world. There are alot of people out there. But what I generally see from the questions is that many may be students. Also, we all want to survive and sometimes that means expanding into the more productive areas. If you don't change you may be out of work. We all want to make money. Some of us have morals, ethics, and if we attempt work in new areas we are cautious. We use good engineering judgement. I have to beleive that a good engineer has the training and thinking to solve a problem no matter what. He has the understanding, and can have an intelligent exchange of ideas. Then on the other hand, there are always those who will look for the easy way. I once ask a fundamental question outside my field and got hammered. That wasn't fair.

Just one comment, where would the world be today if it had to wait on degrees to get anything done? Does this mean that Eli Whitney couldn't have produce the idea of interchangeable parts, or that Robert Fulton couldn't have invented the steam ship? What about, Tom Edison should he have been told not to bother because he didn't go to school? What about the Wright Brothers? They were only bicycle mechanics who out researched and engineered Ole Professor Langley. Or Alexander Graham Bell? Don't bother to invent the telephone your're not a degreed engineer. Or how about Howard Hughes dad? he was only a mechinist who invented the blow-out preventer. What about Bill Gates and his buddies?D on't bother with software engineering because you dropped out of Harvard. This list is endless.

Don't get me wrong, there is a place for Professional Certification. Especially when the public health, safety and the environment could be endangered by a wreckless technology and it's application or a complete failure to take into account the laws of physics. Professional Certification does make the world a safer place.

It's just a question of balance.

saxon

Saxon hit it on the head. A degree isn't what bears innovation. And plenty of degreed persona lack total innovation, let alone competence. I once scoffed at those "engineers" I didn't think deserved the title, simply because they didn't have a degree. But those individuals were geniuses in their fields. No degreed engineer could surpass the knowledge these people obtained through experience. And physics can be learned many more places than a university. My suggestion to any new engineer to enter a plant or something else new, if you want to learn about the process or precedures, go to the people that do the work first, your (non-degreed) operators and technicians. They know the ins and outs and ultimately, it's up to them to actually get results. Degree or not, they are the bread and butter of any industry. Engineers come and go.
-aspearin (degreed Chemical Engineer)

I totally agree tha inventors have opened the door for engineers to make the work a better place. But I offer this. Would you go to a Doctor that dropped out of college, or retain the services of a lawyer that never went through law school? How about a dentist that woked as a dental technician and then decided to practice on their own because they got all the training they needed through experience? I really think the answer to those questions would be no. Engineering evloved out of a time where the public was routinely hurt from people practicing and applying science with good intentions. Professional engineering status was devised to set a minimum of qualifications to apply science to the public. My argument for those who do not seek a degree is, why not?....It's never too late to learn. And why not take the next logical step towards recognition in your profession.

BobPE

Doctor's and such don't have the checks and balances that are key in engineering teams, those eyes that see problems from different angles. Does a PE take on a project from beginning to end without assistance or mistake proofs? I would hope not. I realize the brunt of responsibility lies on the shoulders of the PE in most cases, but seldom have I seen just one signature stamp of approval closing out a project. Peer review is key, such that cannot be undertaken while under the scalpel. Doctors are charged with making split-second life-saving decisions, while engineers are quite often given years to consult a handbook.
I don't see the comparison.

I'm not a PE, never went to college or university. I am a stationary/ship's engineer. Learned my trade the hard way by actually doing it.
While there is nothing wrong with taking the university courses and achieving professional qualifications, there are some problems with it. I've seen many young engineers come out of school who think they know everything. In theory they may be correct, but practically they are all to often wrong. Frankly, anyone who wishes to become an engineer should be required to actually work on the actual systems they will be designing and building. The actual hands dirty, bash your head on a pipe stuff. Might help prevent idiocies like having to cut a rotted condensate return line out because you can't remove it any other way. Or spending two hours removing a nut from a three inch bolt on a motor mount because the designer didn't allow enough room in the access to allow a ratchet to work. Etc. Please note I have yet to meet a system or machine that works exactly as the specs say. They come close but not right on and generally have to be tweaked or adjusted for local conditions.
On the other hand someone who claims to be an engineer does need to know the theory, the codes and be properly certified. For safety's sake if nothing else. Which is what I am in the process of doing, myself. And why I check out boards such as this. A firm believer in the aphorism that the only time you stop learning is when you die. Trouble is I either have the time and no money or the money and no time.

Are we forgeting the basics here. Many people including engineers "dont know what they dont know". They get into trouble very time. I applaud those who have the humility to ask a dumb question as for them it isnt dumb. I also applaud those who give their time and energy to freely offer advice. If you think a question is beneath you dont answer it. Its your loss not the one who asked the question.

As the Dalai Lama said of the New Millenium

"Share your knowledge. Its a way to immortality."

By the way I dont have a degree but am a Fellow of two learned Institutions. A degree is but an indication that you are prepared to work hard even though exposed to copious amounts of beer. It hardly teaches you to engineer anything practical.

Lets face it, there are talented people with and without degrees/certs. I am a 12 year registered engineer, but I still call my friend who dropped out of HS to ask about water systems because he installs water delivery systems every day. And when it comes time to design and install a system, I am responsible for my drawings and he is responsible for the installation. There will be conflicts and there will be resolutions. It's not a matter of who is smarter or who doesn't have to get their hands dirty. It's about getting the job done. So ask and inform your counterpart, labor/operator with technician/professional.

Gtrainor: Dang straight! Communicate! Absolutely nothing worse than someone who treats what he/she knows as a state secret or thinks he/she knows everything.
For those who design, don't forget. The equations you use for design are based on idealizations/assumptions and cannot take into account every factor. It's not an ideal world out there. Remember the guy who used the math to prove that bumblebees can't fly?

All hail to Murphy the maleficient and powerful. Preserve us from his wrath.

I was lucky enough to have served a 4 year toolmakers apprenticeship before doing my Mechanical Engineering degree. This initial base of practical knowledge has definitely helped me when applying my engineering theory throughout my career.

I would say that I use 75% of what my apprenticeship/tech. college days taught me & maybe 25% degree theory in day to day work.

I did my degree 10+ years ago now, but it is a sad reflection on today's education systems, that a lot of my colleagues who would be in their 50's learnt the same theory in their tech. college diploma as I did in my BEng.

Unfortunately modern degrees try & cram too much in & thus every subject gets somewhat diluted as a result.

I have the title & qualification, but my colleagues are at least my equal & they don't have & never will have the PE status !!

As my University lecturer once said, a degree won't give you all the answers, only a better understanding of how to find them.

Graduates & Non Graduates alike can ask questions & it is usually experience & not a piece of paper that gets you there in the end.

just a little thought about doctors, without offend them, medicine has been a amtter of trial and errors. Doctors deals with a machine exactly the same model for ten thousand years. we poor simple and plain engineers graduated (my case ) or not have to deal with new devices, theories ,proceedings ,regulations,new equipment indecifrable handbooks, truble shooting lists,I think all you who answered this are aware. And Murphy laws of copurse, that are not included in any curricula of any uinversity of the world.
I liked too much dis discussion, is refreshing
rgds

I may be a little off base here, but the whole question of "engineer" vs. "Professional Engineer" is one more of a legal nature, based on professional and personal liability. Personally, I am a degreed and licensed Professional Engineer in the Province of Ontario. As a member, I am bound by a legislated code of ethical conduct, with regard for public safety being paramount. All designs or advice, stamped/signed/sealed or not, provided by a Professional Engineer (in most parts of North America) that has a negative impact can, and often does, result in either a civil or tort law case. Most states and provinces require a combination of work experience (attested and approved by surpervisors past and present), at least a large protion of which is performed under the supervision of a licensed Professional Engineer, a check on the personal character,and mandatory exams (content varies, depending on state/province/country). Transfer of licenses between regions is not always guaranteed, and may require further exams. Non-degreed engineers may also apply, but typically require more extensive examinations to test their knowledge of theory and mathematics, as well as more detailed experience and descriptions of how the experience relates to the overall "field" of engineering.

That said, there are many situations where an unlicensed engineer may still perform design work, the most common being when a licensed engineer assumes overall responsibility for the work (and they better have good liability insurance if they do not check the details before signing off on a design). Any person can design or manufacture an item; the question is who will sue them first and how much jail time they will serve if the end result is damage to property or the public.

Jlevie: so check out the Operating Engineer's Act at,

One advantage of what I do is that occasionally I can and am legally required to tell the boss no. Politely of course.

As for ethics,

Wow...now this is what I call a forum. I am not a P.Eng either. But in my 16 or so years experience, there are always (generally the younger professionals - techs and eit's alike) which whom need to learn to apply the theoretical with the field observations. An engineer has earned his/her degree and licensed to practice engineering and conversely, also accepts the liability accociated with his/her practice. This must be respected, but respect is also a two way street too.

As former municipal (Public Works) director, I have seen excellent professionalism, and I have seen repugnant ego as well - all under the name of professional engineer or technologist. When I select a consulting engineer for a particular project I always seek out those with a balanced TEAM. The field people have to be well experienced and able to advise and direct accordingly, the project manager must be competant and the drafter efficient. The designers and engineers must be proficient and knowledgable. There is no room in my project for stuffed shirts and ego's.

I have had to release competant engineers due to their inability to listen and believe a wastewater treatment operator (20 years running that plant) desire to solve treatment issues. On the other hand I have had to hire and greatly admire the abilities of some engineering specialists whom through their experience and training could resolve some very complex hydrogeological problems.

Some stated it best by referring to the fact that no one individual can go it alone. Many engineers excel at the theoretical problem solving, but have tunnel vision when it comes to some simple designs and field conflicts. Likewise, many technologists and contractors have a seething distain for the P.Engs of the world, yet rely on the correctness of the drawings for assembly and integrity of the structure, whatever it may be. Everyone has their place and we all must work together for the client and safety of the public.

Now...lets all join hands in a big circle, and sing Kum-by-ya! KRS Services

Experience or education should not be matched against each other. The two go hand in hand. To be effective in the engineering field is to your advantage to posses both experience and education. Possessing both experience and education helps the person better understand the various aspects of the project from design to construction.

With that said, personal factors apply. Just because you have a PhD or 25 years experience you may not be a competent individual for the engineering field. Work ethic, attention to detail, natural abilities and many other individual traits all play a part in your personal performance. The reputation of the individual or firm counts for a lot.

This site is a great place for people to discuss engineering related topics regardless of who is starting the threads. The replies recieved from this site often convey years of experience and engineering knowledge. However, it is the responsibility of the individual to follow up/verify the advice and implement it in the proper manner.

Well thats my rant. regards,

In my case I am neither an Engineer nor a Technician but both of these groups come to me continuously for advice. What I do is sell process instrumentation, my purpose in the scheme of things is to effectively provide the best solution possible for their applications. What is most important for me is to understand the applications and how the process works. What better way, than to monitor boards like this. In my dealings with Engineers and Technicians from all disciplines, I am sometimes exposed to situations that require unique solutions. So if Joe from Plant A had a specific requirement and the solution that I provided him did the job, why shouldn't I be able to pass that information on to someone else? Does the fact that I don't have an Engineering degree hinder my ability to be able to read and understand product specifications? What about all the training that I am continuously being exposed to, is this not valid? I've never physically installed a DP transmitter, but I am smart enough to know that a shunt should be installed before both ports of said transmitter. You'de be surprised at how many Engineers or Technicians don't know this or how many $2000 DP transmitters have been scraped because the diaphram had drifted so far out of calibration.
I guess my point is that we all serve a purpose, if I can help any one of you guys make your jobs easier, then for me that's my reward. I believe that professionalism is in the attitude, not the degree.