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maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...
2

maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
i found this an interesting read ...
http://mol.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/RobertB...

i liked the way he illuminated the alarmist claims and hyperbole on both sides of the issue and stayed with the "facts". What I took from the article was ...
1) there was no ozone hole (but a naturally occurring thinning) and there was no threat of increased skin cancers,
2) CFCs do add atomic Chlorine to the upper stratosphere (which doesn't sound like a good thing), and
3) the economic disaster predicted by the CFC manufacturers didn't happen.

i think there's a similar story playing out with the climate change debate. I think it is irrelevent that the climate hasn't warmed or cooled significantly over the last decade ... the timescale is too short for any change to be relevent.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
true enough ... i only noticed the site's links to Ayn Rand when i started looking at other pages

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Based on the contents of these threads, the subject of this subforum is 'Where is Engineering Going?', and I've have to say, 'into the garbage can'.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
@10p,

don't you think that both sides in the ozone debate made outragious claims ... outragiously +ve supporting their case, outragiously -ve attacking the other side ? do you think the truth is somewhere else ?

don't you think something similar is happening with the climate debate ?

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Don't mistake objectivism for objectivity.

Ayn Rand didn't come up with anything new. It's called "science", repackaged and regurgitated and decorated in a manner appealing to a certain mindset.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
ok ... i mistyped

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

The real lesson to be learned from CFC depletion of ozone is that conservatives like Reagan used to accept science and they saw the need for government regulation to protect the environment.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Accept Science, OK. Accept the opinions of scientests, not OK.

Can we see the results of the testing done by the EPA on the many products they have banned? Probally not. A secreative goverment is the playground of people with an agenda, not a belivable protection of the public.
There is proof that DDT can safely protect lives in places with minimal enveromental damage, however the UN still bans it's use. That children are dying so we can protect the enviroment is a shame.

I think the bigger problem is excessive waste that happens when a product is allowed. Where a product is restricted there is much less waste.
With CFC's they were allowed, and expencive enough, that contractors would vent it so they could latter charge the customer to replace it. This was a different problem then the use of CFC's as a propelent for antipersperent. However banning CFCs solve the second problem, but shifted the second to another type of theft by contracters.

To me the problem isen't just inappropiate use, but graft by contractors. And worse these industries are regulated, by an inept goverment agency.

Not that I have a solution, but outlining a problem is the first step in developing a solution.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
sorry, i read it differently.

the ozone hole lobbyists put out a message that resonated with the general public that then drove the law making process.

the ozone hole "deniers" tried to fight the bad science being presented with (IMHO) bad science of their own.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

One analogy that I could take away from this presentation is that the ozone scare was really about skin cancers caused by increased UV from reduced stratospheric ozone (the so-called ozone-holes). Fair enough - as the author of that piece said - so measure the darn UV. Well, apparently it went down, and not up. So, real problem (CFC's cause ozone depletion in specific regions under specific conditions), but the follow-on consequence was not actually observed. Good deductive reasoning, but because it lacked a crucial observation, led to a scientifically-incorrect outcome.

Carry that to the climate debate (CAGW). The first premise of this debate is that the earth is warming. The second is that the primary cause is man-made - through CO2 emissions. The third premise is that warming is bad. And the fourth is that the magnitude of warming will result in catastrophe.

Some people argue the first premise. We do spend a lot of time arguing the second premise - with likely some bad science on both sides (I'm thinking here of the Slaying the Sky Dragons folks, for example, and Al Gore's "experiments", too). But, we lose focus on the third and fourth premise. That's where the ultimate truth lies.

Although I may disagree with brad1979, I think that he is on to something and not even realize it. Whether warming is bad and whether the projected warming will result in catastrophe is less about hard science and more about value judgements - which is a socio-political function. And that leads to all sorts of secondary and tertiary issues that may be completely divorced from the matter at hand. Such as: who's more important, Canadians/Russians freezing their butts off less (and being able to grow more food), or Bangladeshis being inundated with rising sea levels, or Chinese peasants who could electricity for the first time, etc?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

No one has explained why we need to reduce ozone emissions from cars if we don't have enough ozone in the air. Oh yea, Ozone is heaver than air so it naturally sinks, not rises to join it brothers.

I'm still missing something here.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Isn't excessive ground level ozone linked to health concerns cranky108?

I realize it's an EPA site so some of you will dismiss it out of hand but it's the first one that came up http://www.epa.gov/apti/ozonehealth/population.htm...

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

"...not even realize it."

TGS4,

I realize it. I really haven't said anything about 3 or 4. I honestly don't have a big problem with people who say the temp is rising but it won't rise the 3 degrees that most scientists say. I mean, 1 deg is still within the tolerance of the models (I think it is unlikely but not impossible). That's where the political debate should be and I fully admit there is no right answer.

The whole reason I even spoke up in the original "can of worms" post was because zdas04 had no clue what he was talking about when he said stuff about the greenhouse effect:

Quote (zdas04)

"The Greenhouse Effect is a hypotheses "supported" by a computer model designed expressly to show the [cataclysmic] outcome of the hypotheses. I look at the temperature gradient in a physical "greenhouse" and find a maximum temperature near the glass wall, with decreasing temperature a function of distance from the glass. I watched the guy in the balloon on Sunday and the temperatures that were displayed on the screen looked very different from the greenhouse model. All of the elevation vs. temperature measurements that I've ever seen have matched what I saw from the guy in the balloon. None of them look anything like a greenhouse."

I'd like to believe this is just ignorance but its pretty basic physics and even if you were ignorant, any engineer should be able to take an hour or so to read up on how the greenhouse effect works. But when that doesn't happen the explanation has to move from simple ignorance to willful disbelief. And I know there are skeptics like yourself that know better than that. I mean, the greenhouse effect has been known since the 1860's and is widely accepted by most skeptics (Lindzen, Spencer, Curry, etc) yet he acts like there's some reason to doubt it.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Ozone hole - try hanging out in the sun in Australia or New Zealand without sunscreen on.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

There's increased UVB levels due to the lack of ozone compared to countries with full ozone coverage.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Um, is that not what that piece from 1994 is saying?

"Even so, the bottom line is not CFCs, chlorine, or even ozone levels. From a health and environmental standpoint, the only worry is UV levels. And guess what? The only actual measurements of UV penetrating to the ground show that UV levels have been going DOWN, not up." etc.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Perhaps my brain is working rather slowly today, but I don't quite see how the single point observation that whitish people in the Antipodes currently tend to get skin cancer if they don't wear sunscreen and hats says anything useful at all about science, history, CFCs or ozone. If you are attempting to point out that UV is still important to antipodeans even though (or even if...) it is declining, yes I agree, but nobody said it isn't, and if that is your point then you are making it in a most perverse fashion. I can assure you whiteish people were getting skin cancer in Oz before CFCs were used, if they lived long enough.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

The point I am making is that while that piece from 1994 infers UV levels are dropping and the ozone hole is therefore hardly an issue in this regards is poor.

Forget about the colour of your skin, go 30 minutes in the summer sun in Christchurch and compare it with 30 minutes in the summer sun in Carins. One is a lot hotter than the other, but it won't burn you anywhere near as much as the other.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Fine. Cairns is hot. Christchurch is cold. You'll get sunburnt far quicker in Chch than Cairns. Why would this be?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Is this an anecdote or actual measures data?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Oh no, that bit is right. Cairns is cloudier and further from the ozone hole, Victoria or Tasmania are less cloudy and significantly closer to the ozone hole. But that has presumably been the case for thousands of years.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Quote (thetick)

Ayn Rand didn't come up with anything new. It's called "science", repackaged and regurgitated and decorated in a manner appealing to a certain mindset.

Probably the single best line regarding Ayn Rand

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Brad1979,
You are really big on calling other people "ignorant" and "have no clue what they are talking about", I don't see you adding much value here. Saying

Quote:

I'd like to believe this is just ignorance but its pretty basic physics and even if you were ignorant, any engineer should be able to take an hour or so to read up on how the greenhouse effect works. But when that doesn't happen the explanation has to move from simple ignorance to willful disbelief
seems to imply that you have some basic knowledge of physics that I sorely lack. Please oh wise asshat, enlighten us as to what the "Greenhouse Effect" really is.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

I spent way more time than I should have trying to show you this in the "can of worms" thread and I have no desire to hash through that again.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
back to 'canes and greg's discussion ...
i think there is a depletion of ozone between August and November for natural reasons. I believe that this has always been happening (for the same natural processes). I'd reckon that these are probably not prime sun-bathing months, particularly in the southern parts of Oz, NZ and "the republic" SA. So I think that the skin cancer "scare" was produced by the "believers" of the ozone hole, a "logical" conclusion from "if ozone reduces the amount of UV light reaching the surface, then reducing the amount of ozone will increase the amount of UV light, which will increase the skin cancer rate". however the link says this isn't so; well, i think it is more that the ozone depletion doesn't coincide with the peak UV so the elevated UV under the depleted ozone is less than the peak UV (under the full ozone layer at peak summer). but then i haven't done to much research on skin cancer rates in Oz, NZ ...

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Is the health concern of ozone real, or is it like the thousands of linemen dieing from exposure to PCB's? The EPA has published so much BS that I don't consiter any of what they say as credible. Just another goverment ABC orginization up there with the IRS, NSA, and ATF.

My thoughts are the CFC thing was just made up scare. However I do believe Cl is a health concern in itself, and it should be banned from water supplies. Ozone would be a much better treatment for water because it has fewer residules in the water treated.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Reading all this leads to only one conclusion: Listening to Commander Cody singing about getting lost in the ozone again is much more interesting.

Any good fluoridation conspiracies still out there?

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

I do know that too much fluordation causes problems, and that has been confirmed.

But we can add it to hot dogs and no one will care.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

urgross, listening to Commander Cody sing about anything is its own reward:)

Anybody remember the whole Radon thing? It's (was) gonna kill us all.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

In places, a radon test is completed with a termite inspection, and meth test of a home before you purchase it.

Radon was discovered because of three mile island and measurment of employees for radation exposure. Who ever though workers would come to work with higher exposure than when they left. Still consitered one of the worst nucular events, but the positive side effect is never discussed in the news.

Did radon cause lung cancer, or was that just the smoking habit? Can't sew the person who dug your basement, but you can sew the smoke seller.

Yea, yea, it seems like everyone has an agenda.

So, in God we trust, everyone else bring data.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

So is being called a "flat earther" a political slur? It is certently insulting and demeaning, and should be put on the same level as any rase based slur.

Bet the news media won't report that angle.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
maybe it implies "holding to out-dated ideas" which doesn't sound particularly nasty.

maybe it means "stupidly holding to out-dated ideas" which is somewhat nasty.

the sluriness (??) of a comment is IMO in the ear of the beholder as much as it is in the mouth of the speaker

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Quote (cranky108)


So is being called a "flat earther" a political slur? It is certently insulting and demeaning...

How is this any different than what the far-Right has been trying to do for years with the word 'Liberal', and more recently, 'Progressive'? And how about all of this 'Democrat Party' crap?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epith...)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Have you looked up the meaning of liberal and progressive?

The science is not settled, and in many cases it has been shown to be questionable, so I guess name calling is the next step for a selfish little child. Beyond that I would expect a tantrum.

My viewpoint is simple, if simple ideas for a solution are ignored, then it is not a real concern. If it is not a real concern, why should I believe it is true?

So we at the point of name calling so as to dismiss anyone who disagrees. It's not like the president or anyone of his staff ever asked for ideas from me, or on this page.

I guess we as a group of engineers are unimportant, and have no value in what appears to be panic mode.

Maybe that's the future of engineering, shut up and get back to work. We don't want to hear from you.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Cranky,

I think you nailed it on the head. Now shut up and get back to work.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Quote (cranky108)


Have you looked up the meaning of liberal and progressive?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/liberal

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/progressive

I'm not sure what the point is that you're attempting to make? Perhaps your comments were a bit too nuanced for us folks.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

The dictonary meanings don't seem so bad. Progressive refers to the progressive movement of the early 1900's. Liberal refers, today, to the left leaning side of the political spectrum. So what's the big deal about being call those names?

Is that any different than being called a right wing extreamist? Which I also object to because it is an untrue, in my case, description of my political views.

I truely don't care about your political views (to be honest). However I do care that the president has stooped to the level of a child in name calling to ram an agenda down our shorts with which we the people have little say. The ends don't justify the means.

An honestly debated subject dosen't need any name calling.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

The president can't really ram anything except maybe declare war. Congress really holds all the power.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

nevermind, the president can't decare war.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

The president dosen't need to declare war. He's proven that already.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

And which President would that be?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

All the ones back to Harry S Truman, a "police" action in Korea, and deployment of 4 divisions to NATO w/out Congressional approval. That's why I think Mayor McCheese and the Hamburglar would be the best candidates-tough on crime, easy on flatulence.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

So writing in Micky Mouse hasen't been working? Must be better than the last several bafoons we have had. Hell maybe my vote wasen't even counted, or I was out voted by dead people.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Two sides of the same coin... Independents with fresh approaches are not permitted to participate in the debates, where many
(if not most) of the electorate learn about the candidates. Even then, the promises made in those debates aren't worth the paper (electrons?) that they are written on. Our current "leader" is a prime example. For example. exactly who is going to sit down and sign the peace agreement to stop this perpetual war in which we find ourselves?

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

Which war?
The over seas contengency, ideas, swine flu, race, affuence, or insects? None of which there is there an identifed party to sit down with. I guess they can make up some leader, and sit down with him (or her), but that won't end the conflect. It will only percipate a transfer of money (extortion).

Maybe we should forget the army, and send in the IRS.

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

You're correct in that there do seen to be many wars going on... I was refering to the perpetual war on a nebulous term, definition of which changes as required, was never voted on by congress, but is effectively making the constitution a quaint thing of the past. But hey! At least we (think we) are safer!

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

(OP)
oh dear ... my thread's been hi-jacked !?

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ...

In regards to climate change, perhaps. Sorry about that.
In regard to objectivity, not so much.

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

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