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submission

submission

submission

(OP)
Submission is to defer to something. Submittal is an actual item that's submitted. Why is this so hard to grasp? I just can't tell you how often I read, "This submission contains our field reports during construction." Really?

Rant over. . .

f-d

¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

RE: submission

"Submission is to defer to something" ... does it ? not according to Word dictionary

submission "3) act of submitting something"

RE: submission

Well my 'Webster's II New College Dictionary' © 1995 (perhaps not so 'New' after all) lists three definitions for the word 'submission', the second one being what you say it means, that is 'Meek compliance'. However, the third one states: "3. a. The act of submitting something for consideration. b. Something thus submitted."

I don't know, but it would appear that the example which you provided is covered by this third definition. At least that's how I read it, particularly when applying the sub-definition ' b '...

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: submission

From my 1967 American College Dictionary:

The word "submission" is a noun, a thing acted on.
The word "submit" is a verb, the action of yielding to the authority of another.
The word "submittal" is also a noun, a thing acted on.

So, you submit a submittal, the result being the submission of a document.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: submission

(OP)
I just don't understand why a person would use "submission" when "submittal" seems the better word.

I didn't consult the dictionary in advance of my post - my bad as already shown. I feel equally about "utilize" and "issuance."

Sure, it might just be me. . .

f-d

¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

RE: submission

I suspect this is another of these English Vs American things.

In thirty years of engineering, the only place I've ever seen the fruits of peoples' labour described as a "submittal" is here.

In my corner of the UK Government, we make submissions (usually repeatedly) all the time.

A.

RE: submission

Everybody has their thing. For me it's the misuse of the words "imply" and "infer". They are constantly used incorrectly.

Infer means to derrive by reasoning FROM something.

Imply means to state something indirectly from which another can infer information.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: submission

I agree with you, fattdad, but maybe we are both wrong. Shop drawings are always called 'submittals' in my specifications.

RE: submission

"Make a submittal" or "transmit the submittal", mostly because I don't like to sound silly by saying submit the submittal. I don't think it is incorrect.

As a side note, any government entity I've been involved with as a supplier, I was the one doing all the submission. sadeyes They tend not to budge an inch.

RE: submission

Speaking as someone with a splitting headache, all I can say is that if you've only seen it from the outside, you have no idea how much internal bureaucracy a government organisation can generate.

I'm with you all the way (which was precisely nowhere today) on the "not budging an inch" bit though.

A.

RE: submission

(OP)
after 33 years in private practice (geotechnical consulting) I now work for Virginia Department of Transportation. I'd say by definition I'm a bureaucrat. When I began 2 years ago, I was expecting that I'd have to keep in my "box." I've been a bit surprised how much responsibility I actually have though. A plesant surprize!

f-d

¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

RE: submission

And the US Navy has got to be the worst of all. That's because many of the people in charge, even civlians, used to be high ranking officers, such as ship's Captains or Fleet Admirals, and once a ship leaves port, the Captain is given God-like powers. This is based on the fact that years ago, before radio communications, the ship's Captain was responsible for all the decisions made and he had no one to second-guess him. Even when modern communication technology allowed ship's Captains to 'call home', tradition held that ultimately he was in charge and his decisions were final. Now in the Army, and later the Air Force, there was always a way to run something 'up-the-chain-of-command' to get a higher authority to make a decision and so this attitude never permeated the officer ranks of these branches of the military as much as it did the Navy.

Now what does this have to do with having to contend with government bureaucracy? Well, if you end up having to deal with one of these former high-ranking Naval officers, many of them still think of themselves as standing in the wheel house of their ships giving orders assuming that there will be NO one who can object, or at least, be able to override them. Now some see this as a virtue, but it also tends to lead to people changing their minds, often on the slightest of whims, which can be devastating if you had assumed that the original agreed-to deal was what it was that you were eventually going to be expected to deliver. But if you're dealing with someone who thinks he can change that deal anytime he wishes and no one will there to object . . . well get the picture.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: submission

So if I submit a submittal, then tomorrow I can refer to yesterday's submission of said submittal?

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

RE: submission

That is surely safe syntax sir.

RE: submission

In my "English" dictionary, submission and submitted are interchangeable in the sense of presenting something or consideration- submission is noted as a formal use.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

RE: submission

Sounds like a case of dominance and submission in working with the Gubmint.

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