×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Contact US

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Diffraction limited spectrum

Diffraction limited spectrum

Diffraction limited spectrum

(OP)
I worked on a project long ago (around 1987) where we showed the spatial frequency distribution of a laser beam - the DC content was at the center of the beam and the harmonic content was at increasing radii from the center.  

Does the same spatial distribution apply if the system gets diffraction limited (I have limited knowledge of what that term really means...)?  An engineer has told me the distribution is flipped for a DL system (high frequency at center, DC at the radii).  Is that true?  

We have an 'optical' (wavelength ~970nm) spectroscopy system where the optical path is showing a high pass filter effect.  If the optical spatial distribution holds, that implies there is something blocking the center of the beam.  This EE is trying to understand what is going on.  Any references will be appreciated.  

Z
 

RE: Diffraction limited spectrum

Seems like you're mixing a bunch of different concepts.  Bear in mind that spatial "frequency" and "distribution" are not the same things and are extremely analogous to frequency and time in electrical signals.

Most lasers are designed to propagate Gaussian beams, whose peak intensities are in the center.  Concurrently, their frequency content has it peak at DC and drops off, and is smoewhat analogous to a low-passed electrical signal.  Diffraction-limited simply means that the frequency correlates to an ideal aperture, which still has its peak at DC and a cut off proportional to lambda/aperture diameter and monotonically decreasing frequency from DC to cutoff.  Your colleague is perhaps confused and thinking about a reflective Cassegrain teelscope system, which has a dip in in the middle of the diffraction limited spatial distribution, inbetween DC and the cutoff, with a possible slight rise in spatial response near cutoff.  However, the DC is still the peak response, as befitting a system that is roughly lowpass.  

If you are seeing an image of the beam with a dip in the middle, that spatial distribution, not frequency.  That generally suggests an optical obscuration in the middle of an aperture, and if you're seeing it, then possibly the system is grossly out of focus as well.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

RE: Diffraction limited spectrum

Quote (IRstuff):

If you are seeing an image of the beam with a dip in the middle, that spatial distribution, not frequency.  That generally suggests an optical obscuration in the middle of an aperture, and if you're seeing it, then possibly the system is grossly out of focus as well.
While this is true for a Gaussian beam distribution (or any other TEMxy mode, where the number of angular fields 'y' is zero), it's not true for higher-order modes with angular fields greater than zero, i.e., TEMx1.

Zapped, what power levels are you working with?  You're essentially in the range of Fiber/YAG laser output at 970nm, and my knowledge isn't as great there as if you were in the CO2 range (10,000nm).  For CO2, at least, as powers start to approach several hundred Watts, it's difficult to get a good quality TEM00 (Gaussian) beam, so it often drops down to TEM10 (or worse, TEM20).  I do not know if fiber reacts in a similar manner.  With that in mind, you very well could be trying to measure a TEM01 or TEM02 beam, which would explain the drop in power right at the center.

This link has some good pics of beam shapes:
http://www.mrl.columbia.edu/ntm/level2/ch02/html/l2c02s07.html
 

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Diffraction limited spectrum

(OP)
Thanks IR.  I remember the spatial distribution having something to do with a Fourier spectrum.  Maybe the math fit but the units were different.  

As I understand it though with our spectroscopy system if you start to block the beam through a radial shutter you lose the high frequencies first as the shutter closes; to me that implies the frequency content is spacial (or the optical beam has skin effect!).  

I just noticed that my last response never posted.  We found an optical component had the wrong coating on it.  This made it transparent in the low frequency part of the spectrum and reflective in the rest of the spectrum; as we are using it for spectroscopy we expected consistent reflectivity.  

Z
 

RE: Diffraction limited spectrum

Well, a couple of things:

> A spectroscopy system should have uniformly distributed light, so there shouldn't be any "high" frequencies in a particular part the light source.  

> Centering of the aperture is irrelevant.  Classical diffraction limited blur spot (This is not that different than EMI propagation through an aperture, i.e., the smaller the aperture, the lower the cutoff frequency) is 2.44*lambda/aperture, so the smaller the aperture, the fatter the blur, the lower the frequency content of the light that makes it through.   

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

RE: Diffraction limited spectrum

(OP)
Ah, I'm starting to get insight on diffraction limiting.  Are you saying that if I'm modulating the light the bandwidth for the modulation gets diffraction limited?  f = 2.44*lambda/aperture?  Kind of like a limit on the modulation index for FM?  

Is there a good book where I can learn more about this?  Or is that equation pretty much what it all boils down to?  

Z
 

RE: Diffraction limited spectrum

More or less, but remember that this is spatial modulation, i.e., imagine a sinusoidally varying intensity pattern across the image.  1/period of the sinusoidal pattern is the spatial frequency.  At low frequencies, i.e., widely spaced dark and light, the modulation can up as high as 100%.  As the spatial frequency increases, the modulation, for a diffraction limited system, will monotonically decrease to 0 at the cutoff frequency.  see: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html for some example modulation patterns.

So, as you can imagine, this is not something that is readily generated within a spectrometer, particularly if it's a non-imaging system.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members! Already a Member? Login


Resources

Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds
Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Download Now
Design for Additive Manufacturing (DfAM)
Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a part’s function at the center of their design considerations. Download Now
Taking Control of Engineering Documents
This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. Download Now

Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close