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What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

(OP)
I'm doing a couple of 4-plexes that by design don't fit the 13D condo application and have to be 13R installations. There's nothing in 13R that states or even implies these systems have to be stamped by an engineer. (That's after a rather quick perusal of a rather short document - I may have missed something). I'm pretty sure YES but is this something that varies by jurisdiction?

Thx
D

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

Varies widely by state and jurisdiction.

Florida requires a professional engineers seal.

Georgia requires a Certificate of Competency holder which has to be either a NICET III or can be a professional engineer,  Most I know are NICET III or IV'S but there are a couple of professional engineers that hold C of C's as well.  C of C holders are tied to specific companies so just any professional engineer can't seal drawings unless he is tied to a company as a C of C holder.

I believe Tennessee is nearly identical to Georgia and so is Kentucky.

Ohio can be professional engineer, architect or NICET III or IV which do not need be tied to companies. Indiana and Illinois are very similar to Ohio.

Unless the law has been changed drawings are not needed to be reviewed in Pennsylvania outside of certain jurisdictions usually larger towns.  Years ago I did a pretty good sized job in Pennsylvania and nobody wanted to see my drawings.

 

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

Texas requires a responsible managing employee (RME) who is NICET III or higher.

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

Nearly all states consider sprinklers the practice of engineering, and require a PE seal for the hatched plans, and most /also/ require a PE review the working plans, and in some states sign off (aka submittal stamp) on them.. The working plans by the way have to be prepared by a person who holds a license/certificate/[name varies] with the State.

Off hand I recall that is how it works in AL, TN, MO, CA, and a few others my memory is hazy on.   

NICET Policy No.32:
"The NICET certification programs are not designed or intended to award certification to any individual to perform engineering services as defined under any state law or regulation as the "practice of engineering."    "

Alabama's Engineering Board put out a statement that the sprinkler design must be based on an Engineer's plan, and then the PE must review the working plans:
http://www.bels.alabama.gov/pdfs/Fire%20Protection%20Letter%20&%20Statement.pdf
Note that they do NOT list any limitations on what size systems or denote 13R vs 13D vs 13..  ALL design work with sprinkler systems are then conceivably subject to civil penalties from the Board of Engineers if a PE is not involved..

Another example:
TN Standard of Care says the same thing only much more prescriptively:
http://tn.gov/commerce/boards/ae/documents/StandardofCare.pdf

"The engineer of record will document his review of the shop drawings and calculations, using a review stamp. ..The engineer should never place his P.E. seal on the sprinkler contractor's drawings or calculations unless he actually prepared them or supervised their preparation. "

Tennessee, as an example, does NOT require a PE stamp for multi-family residential buildings which are <5,000 sq ft in Gross area..  But to find THAT OUT, you have to dig down into page 4 of the A-E Boards guidelines on what the TN Arch-Eng Registration board has declared to require a PE:
http://www.tn.gov/commerce/boards/ae/documents/ReferenceManual.pdf

IOW be VERY very careful.. Those are just two examples of the landmines you could step in..Do all your homework in whatever state you are working in, find out exactly what their SFM and Engineering Board's policies are.  


 

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.  

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

Dave, you're in Canada, correct?  NICET doesn't get us far up here.

In Saskatchewan, I've never had a drawing go through town hall without a P.Eng stamp on it.  I've done a few small additions to systems where the plan reviewer accepted an as-built set and my signature, but those were essentially service jobs.

I don't believe NFPA 13 has a requirement for a P.Eng stamp either, just that working plans shall be submitted for approval to the AHJ.  It's up to the various stakeholders.  

   

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

On NICET's web site

The NICET programs that are most commonly required by local and state jurisdictions, and by federal agencies are in the fire protection field. For a listing of such requirements, click on the map below:

Fire Protection Jurisdictional Requirements

http://www.nicet.org/employers/whouses.cfm

Not completely but pretty much accurate.

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

(OP)
Saskatchewan... Hence skdesigner :) I've lived in both Saskatoon and Regina, but you say 'town' hall so I'll assume you're not in either. You're quite correct. NICET doesn't mean much in Canada and I've never seen it required for anything. It seems to get a lot of press in the States though.

You say you've never had a drawing go through without a stamp? What about 13D? Half the idea behind 13D is to limit costs imposed upon it's installation by the stricter requirements of 13 and 13R where you need the 200 psi hydrostatic test, pipe and fittings listed for sprinkler systems, and of course engineering.

And sometimes it's a very small step between a 13D and a 13R installation. The 4-plexes I speak of are a 2 up, 2 down affairs with separate entrances for each, no common areas. They are effectively 13D but because of building codes, the installation will be to 13R. I design my own 13D. I have a designer that I've used for 20 years that does everything above that and knows more about code than the engineer I get to stamp them when required. If the AHJ is fine with that (and they are in this instance) I don't see the necessity of adding an extra $1,500.00 to the cost of the sprinkler installation just to have a stamp.

Unless of course it's "to cover my butt" for liability reasons. In my humble opinion though you draw the line somewhere. Or get out of the trade all together.

Regards
Dave

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

Saskatoon to be exact.  I've never done a 13d drawing, as sprinklers in 1 and 2 family dwellings are not a requirement here, so can't comment on that.

You state "the AHJ is fine with that", so I'm in agreement with you.  If they'll accept it without a stamp, why pay more?

  

 

RE: What are the requirements in your area for 13R design?

(OP)
Saskatoon! Good to hear. Beautiful town. Regina sucks. Personal opinion of course.

D

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