Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
(OP)
Simple situation, but it seems to crop up in different flavors and forms across engineering business so I want to get some opinions.
Client asks me for a proposal, I need survey, I give her my fee and my favorite surveyor's fee. She says my fee is fine, thinks the survey fee is high, asks me to get a check number from another surveyor. I get a check number from another surveyor, who is not my favorite, but they're still pretty good and could totally do the work. The check number is slightly under my favorite surveyor's number. I give both numbers to the client, she says, "get your favorite surveyor to match the check number and lets get going."
Okay, now that's the sort of thing I would happily do to a car salesman. Is it the sort of thing that's commonly done between engineering professionals? My sense, particularly in these times, is unfortunately 'yes.' Second question, is it looked down upon? If I go to my favorite surveyor and explain that my client asked for a check number, it came in a little lower, and I ask him to match, is he going to be more likely to be thankful I came back to him, or be pissed that I'm asking him to shave his number?
Client asks me for a proposal, I need survey, I give her my fee and my favorite surveyor's fee. She says my fee is fine, thinks the survey fee is high, asks me to get a check number from another surveyor. I get a check number from another surveyor, who is not my favorite, but they're still pretty good and could totally do the work. The check number is slightly under my favorite surveyor's number. I give both numbers to the client, she says, "get your favorite surveyor to match the check number and lets get going."
Okay, now that's the sort of thing I would happily do to a car salesman. Is it the sort of thing that's commonly done between engineering professionals? My sense, particularly in these times, is unfortunately 'yes.' Second question, is it looked down upon? If I go to my favorite surveyor and explain that my client asked for a check number, it came in a little lower, and I ask him to match, is he going to be more likely to be thankful I came back to him, or be pissed that I'm asking him to shave his number?
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
2> That's what's called "negotiation" and is part of business. Seems to me that you got yourself in this situation when you didn't raise an objection at, "match the check number and lets get going."
TTFN
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RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
When I'm procuring anything, everybody gets a first fair shot through an RFQ, and then I choose based on the best combination of cost and features, service or other things I value. No second chances- no bashing a pair of vendors against one another until one drops out.
I don't believe in free engineering and I try to minimize how much of this I give AND how much of it I take from my subs/suppliers. I know that this "free" service is actually paid for by the good clients- it is never truly "free".
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
It's done, but only within a small, reasonable margin among equivalent competition.
Compromise scope, not fee.
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Not really looking for advice on how to handle the situation. I can handle the situation however it breaks. Looking more for impressions on whether asking sub A to shave based on sub B's check number is seen as dirty or not, to either party. I personally don't like it, but I know other site civils that have been put in that position in recent times by clients shopping civil work, and they've shaved, so I didn't know if it was perceived as poor etiquette or not.
My inclination is to go with the 2nd number and be done with it, but I had an inkling that this would provoke some interesting conversation on eng-tips, and it looks like I was right. I'm anxious to hear if we'll get any other respondents that fall in line with IRStuff's opinions, and I'm equally interested to look at how these sorts of opinions vary by discipline.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Well, that's sorta what I'm getting at. In 2007, if a client tried that at my previous firm, they'da told them to hit the highway and looked for a better client. In 2010+, my previous firm (whom I still do some work for on a contract basis) was shaving all sorts of crap just to get work in the door. Effectively, the answer to your question changes based on how bad you need the work. My preference firm might be angry I didn't ask them to shave and they lost work over it, which is really why I'm asking at all.
This situation is most definitely a small, reasonable margin, and definitely among equivalent competition, it's just that my preference for firm came in a shade over. I wouldn't have asked an inferior firm for a check number, because I wouldn't want the good firm to have to match it.
However, I'm increasingly of the opinion that it's an easier decision to just skip the drama entirely and make it a general policy not to ask guys to shave based on check numbers. Less ethical stress for me = win.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
TTFN
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RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
I would much sooner someone came back to me and said you have the job if you are prepared to shave say 5% from your quotation, that way I have the choice. I might do that because I need the work, I think the project looks interesting, I like working for that client for whatever reason or looking at it again I think I could lose that much from the quote or I might say fine give it to company B there is not the margin in it for me.
If you own or run a business you have to make business decisions. I would not take it personally if someone asked me to cut my costs and would not expect them to take it personally if I say no. If you are not doing anything underhand I see no problem with it.
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Revealing one vendor's bid to another and vice versa is a reverse auction, and I won't participate in them nor will I subject my vendors to that treatment. It happens all the time, but it's still not right in my books unless the vendor's prices are published.
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
You, as the prime, can simply ask for a reduction, without mentioning any other bid, or not; it's your choice. It's also dependent on how you couch the proposition. You can say, "B bid $XX, can you match," or, "B came in lower, what can you do?" Or, just, "the customer wants XX% off, can you accommodate?"
TTFN
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Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
We are being referred to on jobs by a company that has been around for 50 years, and we are still cheaper than almost all of the the competition. But there is a certain point where it makes more sense to work at McDonalds.
In case anyone doesn't read in between the lines. We turn around work within less than a week, and I have enough over 1 acre commercial projects to say thats true and gets approved quickly. But no client who is doing only their dream home understands just how many companies lie about their turn around times or what they can offer.
In the end to the OP, I would never throw our surveying company under the bus no matter what. And I am pretty sure they feel the same way. Quality work at closer to on the cheap is extremely hard to find.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Here's what the NSPE says about it...
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Tell the preferred sub, "Might have a job for you, but the client requested you come in 5% lower in your bid. Let me know what you'd like to do."
This is business--whether engineering, retail, or otherwise. It's silly to think that negotiations won't happen.
V
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
This happened to me just yesterday. I had a design proposal out for a concrete shrine of all things (Buddhist). It was around a $20k design fee. The PM called me and told me that BrandX had come in at about 9% lower than me. I wasn't offended, I was grateful. He just asked me "What do you want to do?". The project seems so interesting that I really want to do it, and so eventually I sent back an amended scope that nearly matched Brand X.
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
Of course, errors can then be explained by returning the ball from one side or the other... But I rather tell my client to go with Favorite #1 Surveyor or Favorite #2 Surveyor. Then, best price gets the job. If my client wants to deal, he can do it. I won't.
RE: Shopping subs, check numbers, and what's the limit on what's "right"
If you must reveal the number, tell the client that you use this surveyor because they are top quality. Since you are providing the complete package you would not want part of package to be crappy.