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OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
from AW&ST, US airplanes, civil and military, bought (= burnt) 25 billion (US) gallons of fuel in 2008.  using round numbers that's 100 billion liters.  assume an AFR of 12, so that fuel combined with 1200 billion liters of air.  so 240 billion liters of O2 were consumed ... gone.

forget the CO2 produced, each gallon of gas consumes 10 liters of O2 (in nice round numbers, easy for a politician to remember).

we're doomed ... well, of course we are ... at best 1 person has made it out (and come back to tell us) compared with well over 1 billion fails (if they made it out, but didn't come back to tell us, then they don't count !)  but what about psychics (communicating with spirits, = people who made it out) ?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

What the?

peace
Fe

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Plant a tree save the O2 smile

peace
Fe

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

What we actually need is a global program of carbon sequestration in the form of trees, e.g. reforestation.  Since Al Gore doesn't make money from that, it's not likely to happen.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

given the amount of global warming that caused, we certainly have lengthened our growing season a bit. Also add in the fact that the recent 9.0 earthquake shifted the earths axis a bit and we now have a significant increase in biomass which absorbs all the carbon that you ignored and turns it back into O2. Our recent economic downturn has also reduced the generation of ghg. Ignoring the carbon dioxide, I think we have a net increase in O2.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Yes, but what is the per-person annual consumption of O2, multiplied by the population?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Air getting a bit thin where you are, rb? ;)

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

From NASA: .84kg of O2 consumed per day on average.
divided by 32g/mol *22.4L/mol
= 588L per person per day
*365 days *6 Billion people
= 1.29 Quadrillion Liters of O2 consumed per year by humanity.....

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

I found a citation for O2 consumption of a typical adult male of 3.33e-6 m^3/s.  Assuming a gloval population of 6.91e9, I calculate that humans are consuming (by breathing...), consume 7.26e14 liters per year.  

Your US airplanes are using 0.033% as much O2 as humanity does by breathing.

But, won't someone think of the children?!?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Can I exale now?

And if I recall, there is a group that is giving away trees to people who have the space to plant them. Now if we only had low cost water to keep them alive.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Yea an ur ba!!s also shrink due to decreased oxygen!!! Definitely have to do something about it.  elephant2

peace
Fe

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
you wanna bet that "they" won't start along this line of "reasoning" ... the "true" cost of burning fuel is more than the CO2 produced but you'll also have to account for the O2 consumed.

mark my words ... you read it here first !

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
damnit !

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

CO2 sequestration is like the national debt:  make our grandkids deal with it.

The only effective way to deal with CO2 and O2 consumption is to allow wealthy individuals to buy and sell your rights to produce/consume.  

If we want to live in a society with ultra-wealthy people, we are all going to have to learn to make some sacrifices.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
i might go along with that, except developing economies are given "carte blanche" by the IPCC to burn as much as they want to, and it's only the developed economies (who "can" afford to pay) that are being stuck with the tab.

either burning the stuff is bad so no-one should do it (or pay equally for doing it) or it is not.

conservation is a completely different argument/debate than CO2 atmospheric levels, and GHG.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Once again though, I can't help but have a little sympathy for the argument that the developed economies got to where they are now in large part by burning all these fossil fuels we've now convinced ourselves are 'bad'.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Maybe a gallon of gasoline vapor will will consume 10 liters of oxygen. A gallon of gasoline will consume far more.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Using castmetal's numbers, I get a mass density of CO2 of 0.7 l/g.  According to http://co2now.org/, we emit (not sure if that is human industry, or humanity as a whole) 8.8e9tonne CO2/year.  To convert to volume, that is 6.16e15 liters.  Compare that to my calc whereby humanity emits 7.26e14 liters just by breathing.  That's still 12% of the total.  You kill off a bunch of people, you can reduce the total CO2 emissions really quickly.

I think that the people and entities that are demonizing CO2 are really Malthusian's in disguise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism.  Simply put, they hate people, and all the things that people do.  Throw in a good mix of Gaianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis whereby people are bad for the planet, and you have a potent mix.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

So if understand this right, even hydrogen powered cars should be taxed on the consumption of O2? (How short sighted is that)?

Yes we know a gallon is not a good measure of a vapor.

So what type of device will be used to measure CO2 produced, and what type will be used to measure O2 consumed? Can we trust it to be accurate? Can we trust the gasoline mixture to be a true measure of carbon? How do we account for the oxygen in the ethonol? And because H2O is also produced, won't we see rising ocean levels?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Glad you brought that up, Cranky.  The hydrogen economy may do worse to the planet than the CO2 cycle it proposes to replace.  H2 gas, being so light, will actually bleed off into intersolar space over time.  Right now that is prevented by keeping all our H2 supply bound up in hydrocarbons and water...but start splitting water into H2 gas, and (inevitably) leak it away to the atmosphere before burning it back to H2O...and we're gonna be awfully dry here.  Sometime.  Maybe.  A billion years or so from now.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

I think concern about our planets CO2 level is like worrying about wind farms draining the energy out of the prevailing winds. The fact that we comprehend the mechanism does not mean we understand the repercussions.

"Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations."

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Quote:

So if understand this right, even hydrogen powered cars should be taxed on the consumption of O2? (How short sighted is that)?
I never understood how hydrogen powered vehicles was supposed to solve global warming, since the exhaust gas is H20 - another greenhouse gas.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Put a tax on O2 - everything else has one.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

I'm not to concerned about losing H2 to outer space. All of our atmosphear will end up there at some point.
I would be more concerned about the losses in producing H2 (Just guessing but 50% seems like a good number). And I would estimate the same losses in battery storage, and recovery in electric cars.

The issue with CO2 levels is not so much we use so much. It appears to me that the options, electric cars, mass transportation, etc, just isen't cost effective.
After all airplains are more efficent than cars on a per passenger basis, and the airlines make money at it (sometimes).

The thing I can seem to factor is the equasion between disconfort and dollars.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

What we need is a total independence from using O2. We need to focus our energy on the next generation of Aircrafts, automobiles, and etc using environmental energy such as sunlight in order to generate more clean power.  This will allow for us not to depend on foreign oil...

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

We shoulda been born plants.flowerface

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

If we don't use O2 in aircraft, cars, etc. then all these vehicles will become heaver, and less efficent. The fact that we only have to carry fuel, and not oxidzer for that fuel, just makes the vehicles lighter.
And in fact gasoline has a much energy density than many other alternitives, just makes it that much attrictive, even with the losses.

A better bet is look for efficies to the existing technology. Get rid of energy sucking air-conditing, cargo racks, automatic transmissions, spare tires, radios, emmission controls, etc...

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

"What we need is a total independence from using O2."

Don't hold your breath :)

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

"Get rid of energy sucking air-conditing"

Hmm, when the outside temps in my part of the world reach 115°F+ I'd like to keep my AC please.

Unless you want to pay for me to relocate somewhere more temperate where AC (or for that matter heating) is rarely needed.  Santa Barbara would be nice thanks.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Look, I don't care what they say about O2, I'm just worried about beer.
I dread the day they decide that beer is the cause of global warming due to the CO2 released. We need to promote the idea of carbon sequestration in beer. That when the beer is drunk the body traps the CO2 and that beer is good. (where does the CO2 come from or go to? we don't need the truth here, it hasn't appeared anywhere in the AGW argument, we just need something quasi plausible the great unwashed will believe.
It helps that the great unwashed like beer.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

JMW you have hit it right on the head. Lets just hope they go that way and dont enforce flat beer.

Will
Sheffield UK
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Of course there is Guinness and Boddingtons, they use more N2 that CO2, to my understanding. Problem avoided.

How does O2 figure in? No idea.

Regards,

Mike

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
isn't CO2 produced during fermentation ?

damnit, the "TT"s were right, and we're all doomed to a sober reflection of our past sins ... sigh  

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

rb1957 that's just the kind of irresponsible comment that the eco-warriors will pick up on and claim is the real cause of AGW.... please limit yourself to saying such things as "beer is at worst, carbon neutral, and since the CO2 is not emitted by the drinkers, not all of it anyway, it is a carbon sink."
It doesn't have to be true, truth has nothing to do with any environmental argument these days, it just has to be effective.

By the way, if beer (sorry) CO2 were so bad for us, beer drinkers would be dying like flies.
Ergo CO2/beer is good for us.
Bring on GW whatever the cause.....
Actually, I suspect even eco-warriors like a bevy now and again so perhaps that is why beer is (temporarily) safe. We're in real trouble if there is a rising TT Greenie movement out there.

PS what's the deal on diesel?
Why is diesel, all of a sudden, the wrong kind of fuel and what does that do for bio-diesel? All of a sudden diesel is the arch polluter and while for many years the UK was unique in charging more for diesel than petrol, eroding much of the advantage in choosing diesel and why diesel had the lowest penetration of the Uk market compared to European markets where diesel was cheaper than petrol and diesel car sales high, now they are all getting in on the high tax act.
I suspect it is a bit of a con; various governments have realised there are too many diesel owners out there to significantly affect diesel sales so they can safely follow the UK example and charge more tax on diesel without killing the goose.
Plus it makes bio-diesel more competitively priced.....  but how is bio-diesel going to be less polluting in use than ordinary diesel?
Oh, I get it, perhaps this is a propaganda campaign to kill bio-diesel because they've suddenly realised it contributes more CO2 than it saves?

The thing is, if they can change their stance on diesel almost overnight, beer isn't safe.

PS here is a goodie from the anti diesel brigade:

Quote:

Ever heard of pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis? It's not just the longest word in English, but also the name of a lung disease contracted by inhaling too much silica dust. You won't find much of that substance in diesel emissions but you will find it in the road dust kicked up by big diesel burning trucks.
Yeah and how is banning diesel going to solve that one? Will the trucks magically disappear?

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

The mythbusters did it, so why can't they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIPprUxFap8


Many people start to sing a different tune once they realize environmental ideals have a real world effect on their wallet.

 

Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Some of us live in an area that rarely exceeds 85 degrees. So AC is optional. But earth sheltered homes tend to stay cooler than stick built homes.

When real word cuts normally turn people off.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Only a matter of time before the government starts regulating our O2 consumption and creation. They will even control the air we breathe! :-O

Designer and compression springs enthusiast
http://www.coilingtech.com/compression-springs.html

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

yeah well, they are moving from the general to the particular:)

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
"earth sheltered homes tend to stay cooler than stick built homes" ... but they flood alot easier.

but in the "good old days" people got on well enough without AC ... we've just gotten too soft (or civilised ?).

and i too have been wondering why is diesel all of a sudden become "bad" ??  diesel's are at least more efficient tahn IC engines.  maybe it was an "unforeseen undesirable outcome" ... prolification of diesels (greener than IC engines) meant more smoke/particles in the air 'round some greenie politico's home so he decided to out-law them ... (having previously advocated them ?)

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Maybe it's that puff of black smoke after each gear change.

Or maybe those loud diesel pickup trucks.

Actually it's not the engine type that is the problem, it's the fuel. Any engine burning a dirty fuel, will produce dirty exaust. And even at that, the exaust can be cleaned up. The matter is the energy put into the cleaning.

Also in the good old days, the kids played in the swimming pool. It was the adults who suffered in the heat.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

Quote (cranky108):

It was the adults who suffered in the heat.

Mother swam with us and napped in the shade, in her chaise lounge, when she felt like it.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

rb1957, I know particulates in Diesel emissions are a concern to some.  The emission limits on diesels in the US are I believe tighter than in Europe, at least for cars, not sure about trucks.


Not sure if the CO2 out put is higher and can't be bothered to look right now.  Certainly mpg should be better.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

The otto cycle engine isen't that dirty, if for example it was running on methane, or propane, but gasoline is a dirty fuel.

What seem to be happening here is we are being pushed into smaller less safer cars. The greenies can't see that.

Interesting note is that the cars of the same size don't get much better gas mileage than the older cars did. They just cost more because of the emissions, and safety stuff that has been added.

The other problem is that as the cost of fuel decreases, the usage goes up, but not because of the reduced driving as much as the other off road usages (boats, etc).

But we are not seeing mileage targets added for boats, mini bikes, lawn mowers, etc. However we have seen a reduction of 2 cycle engines.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

It certainly is a curious idea to have a few billion space travellers on a spaceship which has the atmosphere on the outside. My first thought would have been some sort of containment. The current design can't survive for long, one way or another.  

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

(OP)
in another few billion years it won't matter ...

other comments, fwd to the Chief Architect, c/o the nearest church, forest, empty space, depending on your preference.

RE: OMG ... we're running out of O2 !

If the goverment taxes O2 consumption, can I get money back, or a credit for my lawn of weeds?

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