I don't work much with mechinical drawings, but electrical schematics don't work well in 3D. I think our civil engineer still uses 2D drawings also.

While there are a lot of shops out there that have moved partially or wholly to 3D, there are also a large number with little to no 3D.  Various people & entities have been pushing the idea that 'paper is dead' or '2D is dead' since I started learning to draft.  That was only 15 years ago, but I haven't seen any evidence that 2D will disappear any time soon.

I can envision a time when 3D nigh-completely replaces 2D in the mechanical sector, but I'd put it at least a good 50 years out.  The technology is here or nearly so, but the adoption and standardization is going a lot slower.
 

I can see the use of 3D more in the mechanical world than the building industry.  But even there we are starting to feel the "pressure" - mostly from the sales and manager types who like to hear customers say "oooo" and "ahhhhh".

So - we are too are heading in that direction.

Sooo... how does one document a part's requirements?  Perhaps with a bunch of tags on a 3D model?  Fine.  How does one show all the tags in a way that can be followed?  Perhaps with a set of views from given directions LIKE THOSE FOUND ON 2D DRAWINGS?

321GO, this subject, though perhaps by other titles, has been done to death.

The 2D drawing will be around for a long time yet.

thread730-263441: The 21st Century Design Drafting Group
thread1103-239768: Current state of Model Based Definition
thread1103-262305: Contolling Electronic Cad Data
thread730-256663: Engineers and CAD
thread730-251417: Drafters per Engineers
thread1103-182896: Using 3D Model Geometry
thread730-184173: Are drawings needed anymore?
thread1103-182500: Detailing Complex Geometry
thread730-221206: I Hate Drawings!!!

I have been hearing this for my entire career and at one time thought that 2D prints were going away.

However, there are too many machine shops that use prints, and even some that can't even look at the 3D data.  Heck, some can even read GD&T.

Some of our toolmakers use 3D to create our tools and don't use the drawings or even see them.  The drawings are strictly for layout.  

We can link data to our models, and in time I imagine this info will be easy to use.  It probably is already, but it seems in this business everyone needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.  Not that i'm complaining.  Drawings keep me busy!   

On the design side, there will always be the place for a 2D sketch of an installation, modification, etc.  And then there are 2D parts- some industries and applications are dominated by them.  Are you really going to send out 3D models for placards?  Man has been drawing in 2D for thousands of years.  Where simplification can be found in 3D, there will come a time.  For everything else, why would we change?  

2D is virtually already dead in certain sectors and will live on for a long time in others, it really depends on what you are trying to achieve.

It is interesting to see the comment from Steve Martin that 2D will still be around in fifty years time. As someone in their early 50's I was thinking of the changes I have seen during my working career.

From rows and rows of designers on drawing boards and being amazed the first time I saw a fax, to owning a phone that probably has more power than just about any computer at the time and sticking a file on an ftp site and someone machining to it minutes later on the other side of the world.

I have no idea what will be going on in fifty years time other than I will be resting in a box.
 

I fanything replaced 2D drawings, I doubt it will resemble any of the near-solutions in circulation today.

While the building construction field is becoming more and more 3d with models and BIM - I cannot imagine there ever being a time in the near future when 2d drawings will not be used.

I just picture the plumbing contractor installing his underground piping on a muddy excavated site with his laptop on his lap in the backhoe - that being the only computer equipment he can get the 3d drawing on without a long extension chord - trying to read the invert he has to lay his pipe.

Thinking progressively, we can live in that CSI NY life with 3D projection of the body but instead for the engineer we can have a 3D projection of the part.  With the advent of the 3D TV, I'm sure PTC will come up with a version in the future.  

Speaking of other ways of documenting parts, I remember seeing an old black and white film documentary of a company that used to do their drawings on black boards and then take a picture of it and then use the picture as the drawing.  I don't know who it was, but that was some forward thinking.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

2D is a long long way from being dead. It all comes down to economics. 3D cad work is slower and more expensive to produce. And it isn't entirely necessary for many industries. So why would companies spend more money on 3D drawings when 2D drawings are quicker and easier to produce? However, many 3D cad programs can easily generate 2D of the same model after the 3D drawing has been created. So, until the next generation of engineers starts creating drawing strictly in 3D from the onset, and only uses 2D as an afterthought, most 2D work is here to stay for quite some time. With that being said, many employers are now requiring potential employees to have 3D cad experience, so the death of '2D only' cad may be coming sooner that we think. Or maybe we should say that the careers of '2D only' cad people are dying an almost certain death, rather than it being 2D cad itself that will disappear......

"3D cad work is slower and more expensive to produce"

Not always, though 3D is seldom as much faster as the CAD companies try to tell you.

Sometimes you need to do it in 2D just to figure out how it might work, or might be made, in 3D.  Sometimes the 3D cad system just can't generate the curves.  Sometimes knowing how the projection is drawn in 2D allows you to figure out where the 3D modeller is choking, and how you might rearrange things to make it work.

But, those are fairly esoteric problems.

In the long run, Tick has the right answer:  it's quite easy to put a 2D paper drawing into the back of a stack of legal contractual documents.  Not so simple, nor easily checked, when the drawing is a 3D electronic data file.

While we model everything in 3D CAD, we also produce fully detailed 2D drawings from those 3D models.  I think 3D CAD is much faster & more reliable than any 2D system.  Especially when it comes to assembly drawings.  Every purchase order goes out with 2D drawing(s) (might all be PDF files) and every incoming part is checked against a 2D drawing.  I don't see it changing any time soon.

A big thing about 2D drawings is that it lets you show someone what is important about a part.  You decide what views they will be looking at, and which features to dimension off of.  Giving someone who is not familiar with a part just a stp file with the solid geometry and a CS, where would they even start?  By providing 2D prints with your model you can convey your design much more directly.

Although I believe now-a-days 3D is the only way to design, production and QC will always need 2D.

No issues with backward or forward compatiblity, or formats or platforms disappearing either.

Plus they "open" instantly:)

Regards,

Mike



 

I don't know, changes from linen to mylar to tracing paper... weren't entirely painless.

I've also heard stories of draws full of prints where the ink has lost adherence and started to fall off etc.

While pure MBD has a lot of issues, pure 2D wasn't/isn't perfect either.

Yeah, true, I guess you don't see diazo much anymore.

My company had to pay a service to scan umpteen thousands of old drawings because....they were declared a health hazard by the state of (name omitted, but fairly obvious).

No one said they were perfect:)

Mike  

KENAT,

   Change from linen to tracing paper does not require a radical change to the way you do design.  I think 3D does.

   I am trying to find a set of Rapidograph pens for my niece.  She likes drawing Manga.  I have my own set which I have used for both artwork and drafting.  They are no longer in the stores here in the Toronto area.  I cannot even find inks in bottles suitable for reloading the pens.  The clerk at the artist run store I visited, told me that they cannot find the matte mylar any more.  

   My niece may be getting books for Christmas, again.   

               JHG

drawoh, true, all kinds of supplies are going missing. Engineering pads, colored lead for lead holders, who knows what all.

Regards,

Mike

drawoh, matte mylar... that's a blast from the past!  I remember razzing my friends that were still on vellum when I was using that mylar with plastic-leaded mechanical pencils.  "Ha ha, you still need to use a scum bag..."

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

I don't know, switching from ink to pencil etc. must have upset a few oldschoolers.

Pah, what about switching from scalpels on aluminium to graphite on  mylar?

Bet that made people smile.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

I really miss those sand paper pencil sharpeners.  They really came in handy when an emergency nail file was needed.

Quote (KENAT):

I don't know, switching from ink to pencil etc. must have upset a few oldschoolers.  

   Was ink ever used systematically for mechanical design?  Why go to the extra trouble if you do not need presentation quality?

   I have done ink on mylar for some installation drawings for our customers.  I used my Rapidograph pens and a Leroy template.  They looked great until a co-worker changed something with his pencil and his messy printing.  It is a good thing Rapidographs are not deadly weapons, at least, while loaded with ink.  

               JHG

I never did a linen drawing from scratch so can't be sure, however when amending/revising them you had to use ink - pencil didn't really cut it.  So you better get it right.

quote:
"Sooo... how does one document a part's requirements?  Perhaps with a bunch of tags on a 3D model?  Fine.  How does one show all the tags in a way that can be followed?"

http://download.ptc.com/videos/mkt/swf/showcase/de/start.html

Somewhere in the middle of this creo elemets/pro video they demonstrate (full) model based definition. Maybe some of you find this interesting.




 

asme y14.41 lays down the ideas for MBD with annotated models.

However, frankly, it doesn't seem very user friendly - this has been discussed before.

Plus it relies on everybody having an interoperable data exchange where they can get all the information from the model - not just a dumb solid.  

This is made to work for some aerospace & automotive supply chains - gets more tricky for smaller places which can't tell their vendors which CAD system to choose.

However, all this has been discussed before in one or another thread see my 4 Oct 10 20:22 post which has links to lots of threads about this type of thing.

Probably going the way of my 2D TV??!!

   I found Rapidograph pens!

   The store I called that claimed they did not have any, had some.  I even found the squirt bottle for the ink.  If you are in Toronto, Canada, you search Curry's, and you ask a senior person where everything is.

   The only remaining problem will be how my sister is going to get india ink out whatever her daughter spills it on.

               JHG

I am sure that 2D will still be alive and well for some time in the construction industry.

Most of the guys on site have enough problem understanding a 2d drawing let alone a 3d one. Easier to understand the concept, harder to understand the detail.

So what units do we use for 3D drawings? Feet, Ohms, or something else?

cranky108,

   Drawings are 2D!

   One of the benefits of SolidWorks is that it knows what units you are using, within reason.  You can model parts in 3D 100mm wide by 6in long by 10mil thick, if you want.  My understanding is that SolidWorks works uses meters as its unit of length.  It knows the conversions.

               JHG

Well, having had some limited experience with solid modelers I note that the graphic represenation is ALWAYS 2D due to the fact that computer montors are, like paper, flat.

Regards, and happy New Year.

Mike

  

Most of the drawings I work with are unitless, although the mechinical ones could have units, but we don't use units for schematics, logic drawings or R-X diagrams.

So how can anyone say 2D is almost dead?

I also struggle with drawing programs not being able to handle log-log scales for time-current diagrams. And different scales for X and Y in profile drawings.

It sounds like that 2D is only dead in your world, while the rest of the fields these programs just can't cut it.