Professional Liability 3

Yes, you do. At least make sure your are named in your companies E&O policy as one of the insured.

If I were you, I would ask your employer as to why are you named if you are not their regular employee or even hired as an engineer.

I would stay away from such employers, to tell you the truth.



Rafiq Bulsara

If you are just an employee where the ownes are PE's and are sealing the work, then I wouldn't think there should be a problem.

If you are the only PE on staff and they are doing any work that can be considered engineering, then you should be concerned. You could be thrown under the bus if any problems develop. What kind of work does the company do?

If you are explicitly named on your employers policy then you are financially protected from litigation costs, but NOTHING can protect you personally from going to jail if your company does something that meets the standards for criminal negligence. It doesn't matter who violated the law if your stamp is on the drawings/reports then you get to join them in the criminal prosecution.

Yeah, if you are going to stamp anything you have a right to expect more than drafters wages.

If you never stamp anything or represent to a client that either you did the engineering or it was done under your responsible charge then you are probably safe. If you have business cards you probably should be careful not to include the P.E. after your name (handing out a card with P.E. on it has been seen by courts as "holding yourself out to the public" as an engineer). As long as your duties are limited to drafting I wouldn't risk that liability.

David

If you are one of the listed "qualifiers" for your company, you bear responsibility for the company's actions. As others noted, make sure you are covered by the E&O policy and that the company specifically indemnifies you for your actions on their behalf. That will not prevent you from being sued individually, it just provides defense if you do...you could still lose YOUR assets as a result.

I agree completely with zdas04....if you are going to assume that level of responsibility, you should be compensated accordingly.

Also, for small companies, the usual requirement is that any listed qualifiers be officers of the company. Are you?

I would have thought that a PE, whether listed or paid as one or not, has a general duty of care regarding designs he works on exceeding that of a normal draftie, and can't really be a little bit pregnant.






Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

I once knew a medical doctor who retired and started working as a groundskeeper at a golf course. The fact that he was an MD did not impact his responsibilities or liabilities as a groundskeeper. Same for a draftsman. If his responsibilities are confined to executing drawings at the direction of others then the fact that he is a P.E. is immaterial. If he then turns around and stamps the drawings that he drafted then that is a different kettle of Cod.

David

David...the groundskeeper and Doctor are widely separated. Not so for the draftsman and engineer. If there were an issue with a design, it could probably be argued that a draftsman with an engineering license had a greater duty than a draftsman without an engineering license and was either responsible for the errant design or should have prevented the errant design.

Greg...you're exactly right...the professional duty is still there, without regard to corporate standing. That's why in my home state, engineers are personally liable as well as the corporation and they can be sued separately and are regulated separately.

I've talked to a lot of draftsman who felt like the gulf between engineer and draftsman was at least as deep and wide as the gulf between doctor and groundskeeper--the stories of draftsmen being chewed out and even losing their jobs for questioning an engineering design are legion. It may not be right, but it is real.

The few times I've used a draftsman I was very upset by the "minor tweaks" that they made without supporting calculations. I did find one guy that would draw my design exactly and then stick post-it notes on the drawing showing where improvements might be made. I didn't find that approach threatening and often found that the calculations supported the guys recommendations and I changed the design, but at the end of the day responsibility and liability for the design was solely mine.

David

I work for a small company that provides service to small oil and gas companies around the US. The work includes renovations to existing service as well as new services. My responsibilities include drafting (primarily) and engineering as directed. I do not engineer all items that I feel should be engineered or reviewed by an engineer. I have several concerns.

First, I am the only structural engineer, let alone PE, on staff. My direct supervisor does not have an engineering degree and certainly not a license. He has the last say in designs that are issued. My company does not typically issue signed and sealed drawings. Furthermore, the connection design in its entirity (moment or pin; welded or bolted, etc.) is left to the contractor as per the specifications.

I agree, my duty as a professional engineer includes stepping outside the company's expectations for my input on design. It seems, therefore, I should be listed on the E&O policy as long as I am employed here. As for my responsibilities, I need to discuss this with my supervisor and express my opinion regarding my involvement with the design process.

What do you mean by qualifier? I do not understand why the company would list me as a licensed engineer if I am not being utilized as a PE. That is probably a question for my company.

Thank you for your input. It has helped guide me and hopefully protect the license I worked so hard to earn.

If you are the only PE on staff, and that is being used as PE qualification of your company (which clearly is the case) and if you do not have final say in the design, I would either straighten it out with your employer or quit the job, even if you have to wait on restaurant tables instead.

I have a feeling as soon as you mention to your employer how some your name is listed as a company PE, a lot of things would change, perhaps for good or perhaps for bad.

I have read some where else that some employer was using one the employees' name as the "manager" or the decision maker in an LLC without his knowledge and that guy ended up in a lot of legal trouble because of some shady operations of the owner. You do not want to be in that position.



Rafiq Bulsara

They requested my PE number, but I explained I am a contract employee and I am not employeed as an engineer rather a designer. I refused to be listed as part of the PE qualifications. I am relieved to see it was probably the correct thing to do.

However, I feel I still need to discuss the fact I am the only PE on staff and do not have the final say on designs that are issued - that I have worked on. It seems an ultimatum that I have the final say as the PE or I can no longer work here. Unless my fear of my liability is too extreme.

Is there a way to research whether I am listed or not? Should it be on my board's website?

Ultimatums are so pointless. If you are being paid as a non-engineer "designer" and never stamp anything and never hold yourself out as an "engineer" then the status quo should be fine for you. If you ever step an inch over that line (e.g., calculate a beam stress or stamp a company drawing) then you have messed up and are accepting considerable liability without commiserate rewards--that is when the ultimatum needs to be issued.

Draftsmen/designers NEVER have the final say on a design, if you can't live with that then get your status changed or go somewhere else.


David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Life if nature's way of preserving meat" The Master on Dr. Who

No I would not expect to have say as a designer. However, I have performed calculations and been asked to review designs. I am the only PE on staff though not listed as the qualfier per my board nor have I sealed any designs. I was unsure of my liability in such a gray area.

Like the classic TV commercial says "you've been hosed Tommy". If you have been "Checking" and "Calculating" then you can bet that your boss has been saying "Our Engineer is responsible for this design".

If you didn't have your P.E. then we wouldn't be having this conversation (the industrial exemption provides adequate protection for Engineers that can work under it). The problem is that with your P.E. if you (or your boss) are holding yourself out to be doing Engineering and nothing sheilds you from that liability.

David

Regardless of what you do or you thin you do or get paid, as zdas4 said, if your boss is selling you as a PE on his staff, you are and will held liable and you will have tough time not proving it. Besides proving one right or wrong is not based on the facts but the ability of a lawyer convincing someone.

Look for some other better employer.

Rafiq Bulsara

TXPE....in some states, and I haven't reviewed the Texas law, you are REQUIRED to state, in writing, if an unqualified lay person overrules your design. You might want to check into this as your boss seems to fit this description. Your letter must go to the individual and in some cases, for a public project for instance, it must be copied to your state board.

I think you are dealing with a couple of issues here,

1. Contractually you are hired as a draftsman, so under contract you do not have to provide engineering services only drafting services.

2. However, as a PE you are considered an expert in whatever you have been licensed for. A draftsman although well versed in design may not be considered an expert under the law.

3. Under Common Law being an expert in design I believe you are required under "Duty to Warn" if there is a flaw or a defect in the design to warn owners and others.

For instance if they tell you to draw some kind of bracket that you know will hold 10,000lbs and you know just from looking at it that it will not work you have a Duty to Warn.

MaddEngineer is correct on the Duty to Warn. He said it better than I did!

my company recognizes me on an "as used" basis. If I engineer something, I go on record as EOR.

MaddEningeer - I am contracted as a designer though my responsibilities include performing engineering work (including design and review of other's eng work) thus creating gray area. Part of my concern is the lack of engineering that is done. For example, all the connection designs are to be provided by the contractor building the job or as determined by the owner. Is it sufficient to require the connection be designed to develop the full capacity of the connecting members?

Also, there is a concern with the fact I am performing engineering work and my supervisor is not a PE. Does the liability for the design become mine? The obvious case where the design is insufficient is clear cut.

Agreed, it is generally comes down to having a good lawyer. Are there steps (aside from not being represneted as a PE by the company) I can/should take in order to continue to perform engineering duties while working for someone who is not a PE and has authority over all structural design? Or, is it a mistake wto ork as such?

I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I have been through a lawsuit and know how expensive and strenuous they can be. It is worth it to stress now and make proactive decisions when I understand the implications.