Doing part time work on the side? 4

StrlEIT,

I have a little part-time side work for my old employer. It works out great since my full-time job is 100% structural work (buildings, rigging beams, etc.) and my old job was in safety. In my old job, I mostly worked on tie off anchorages and high end fall protection products, but it required a structural background.

Since my old boss is a P.E., there is no need for me to stamp anything, just engineer and draw it for him. I usually work approx. 10 hours a month for him, so it is not a lot of money compared to my full-time job.

All of the higher ups at my full-time job know what I am doing. Our employee manual actually covers "moonlighting" activities, use of their resources and the employer's E&O insurance limitations.

My best pieces of advice for you, are:
1) Depending on your state's laws, set up an L.L.C. It is $150 or so (in WI) and makes your taxes simpler, in my opinion.
2) Get an EIN from the IRS. Again, makes taxes easier in my opinion.
3) Set up a business bank account. Helps keep the money organized and separated.
4) Don't spend a ton of money on QuickBooks. They have a free version online. It works for me, but your mileage may vary.

My situation is different since I also have a "held harmless" clause in my side work contract, so I don't carry E&O insurance.

Just wondering, is the work mostly timber construction or is it heavy industrial? Again just curious.

Joel Berg

It's mostly stick framed structures in a a hole-in-the-wall town in central PA. The firm I work for does high end work for top tier architects with mostly institutional clients (60% of our work is at ivy league universities), so I know there is no way I would be taking work away from them. Again, though, it is a little over a year away before I could even consider it.

There is nothing wrong with doing the work as long as your employer knows and you keep everything separate. But as someone else from a close knit rural/small town background, I think it could get to be a bit uncomfortable. When the time comes, you can always beg off because you are "too busy".

There's no need for an EIN unless you intend to take on employees...

Dan - Owner

SEIT....agree with hokie66. Just let your employer know.

Also, don't depend on an indemnification clause (with or without a "hold harmless" mention) to protect you from professional liability. That's only one small aspect of your risk management. jberg...you might want to re-think that approach.

I did side work for over 15 years while working for large firms. They were aware of it and in one case I made it a condition of employment.

You'll have to be careful to keep things separate...not just the work, since you won't likely be competing against your firm, but more so the time commitment. You employer comes first...if not in your eyes...certainly in his. Make sure you have no liability chain to connect the two or they (your employer) will be pissed and could sue you if problems came up. Conversely, if you get Professional Liability coverage for yourself, don't let that get pulled into any claim that is against your employer. Make sure they will continue to indemnify you on their behalf for their projects. (jberg...note that employer indemnification is often more powerful than contractual project indemnification)

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input.

On the side, from your home, after work hours ... No problem as long as the employer knows and there is no market conflict.

However, problems during construction that need immediate attention DO occur creating the situation where you may have to deal with that at work. THAT SITUATION CANNOT HAPPEN. If the contractor can be made to understand (which is highly doubtful) the fact that you cannot and will not take calls at work, whatever the problem, then, OK. Otherwise, it WILL be grounds for you being fired. Count on it. I've personally seen this happen.

Under these circumstances, for now, it would be a more secure career move to bring the work into your company.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

There's no way the guys I'm talking about are going to pay the fees that my company would charge - not in a million years! This isn't even really a possibility for another year and a half (or so), I just wanted to get an idea of what others have done.

Then you will have to trust the client that he will not call. HE will have the call on your professional future.

If you can live with that, good luck. Personally, I would stay clear.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

I wouldn’t touch the work until I was a PE even if it did not require a stamp. I assume that you will be asked to make structural designs and if things go wrong, do you really believe that you won’t get pulled into the problem.

And, if these guys would not want to pay you a fair value for the work you would do for them, why would you want to do it. Let me see, do you normally pick high risk, low yield adventures? I tend to be drawn to low risk, high yield work.

When I was still working for a company, I never fully comprehended why the firm has a "no moonlighting" clause in our employee manual. The reasons given to us, I thought then we're just a bunch of bs to keep us loyal to the company. Now that I have my own consulting company, I realized and understood why. First and foremost is exposing your employer to additional liability risks that they cannot control and the employer will take a hit on their E&O liability insurance premium. Insurance companies specifically asks about this and no company in its right mind would be willing to pay the extra premium so their employees can moonlight.

Sounds like you have a great chance to get started on working towards doing your own thing. Be careful, once you get a taste of working for yourself it gets harder to stay working for the big company.

Its all about developing contacts that you can use down the road. Seems like you have the right thought process working already.

Since your client won’t pay your employers hourly rates you will do it for less. This is a major problem in our profession. Single man shops and moon lighters that give away work. I understand that you make more per hour doing this than you do at work but at the same time you lower the fees for everyone. One day if you start your own firm and you have to go up against the “under cutters” you will understand. How can we expect clients to respect our profession when we don’t?

To answer your question, if you are not a PE yet you will probably be violating your State laws. I would wait until you get your PE before you offer Engineering services.

I think I'm getting a little unnecessary flack here.

Let me make a couple things clear:

1.) I would NOT do any personal work on company time or with company resources.

2.) I am not attempting to undercut anyone. When I said that they wouldn't pay the fees that my company would charge, I say that because my company works with top tier architects and charges exorbitant fees. I don't believe that my company would even accept the work.

3.) I already made clear that I wouldn't even consider doing this until I passed the PE.

BRGENG-
I'm not trying to undercut anyone. A homebuilder would not even contact our office for engineering services. This was a situation of a couple guys who knew I was an engineer and asked me the question. I posted here simply to see what others have done. I would not give away my services - if you note in many of my posts in other threads, I express the same concern about our profession and fees as you do. That being said, however, I know what my charge out rate is and it is over 3.5x my hourly rate. Additionally, the area I'm talking about is a very rural area that doesn't even require drawings/calcs be submitted.

"I'm not trying to undercut anyone. "

Whether you are 'trying to' or not is irrelevant. You are proposing to undercut your own firm, which you justify by saying that they charge exorbitant fees.

When in a hole, stop digging.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

If you dont have permission from your firm just be prepared to be fired if they find out.

What is the standard rate in your area and what would you charge?

As far as I can see StructuralEIT is not saying he/or she will do anything wrong.

For many companies undercutting the opposition is how work is won and whilst it might not affect their current employer people moonlighting are taking the food from someone’s table, almost certainly not a large organisation but a small local company maybe.

As long as you do nothing illegal there is nothing wrong with this, however as you already have a job and will almost certainly have lower overheads you can compete on uneven terms and by doing so will drive down the benchmark price, this soon will filter into the system and will have an impact on medium and larger companies if the recession continues.

As long as nothing illegal is done anyone is entitled to do this, but it will have a negative affect on other companies, as long as you are happy to do this go ahead but be prepared that it might come back to bite you on the rear.

SEIT,

I agree with you. The flack is unnecessary. You have just posed a question, not indicated your intentions.

The only argument I would have with your posts is "my company works with top tier architects and charges exorbitant fees." I read this "my company works with very difficult architects and has to charge accordingly."

Greg-
I'm only undercutting my own firm if they had a chance at the work in the first place. That's not true, so I disagree with you.


BRGENG-
Part of my question is how would you handle it to make sure it doesn't pose a problem for your current employment. I don't think the standard rate in MY area is as relevant as the standard rate in the area of the builders. I have no idea what I would charge, but it certainly wouldn't be undercutting anyone. As I said before, I have the same concerns about our profession and fees, and I'm certainly not going to contribute to the problem.


ajack-
That was the major point of my post - to find out any pitfalls, issues, what others have done, etc.