Doing part time work on the side?
Doing part time work on the side?
(OP)
Has anyone ever done part time engineering work on the side? I won't be getting my PE until fall of '10, but I've already been approached by builders in the small town where I grew up. It's a very small town and I knew everyone when I lived there - my dad's known everyone forever. I've already made it clear that I can't sign or seal anything yet, but that I'll be in touch when I can. It's a fairly uncomfortable situation, because they really are friends of the family, but I don't want to do anything to jeopardize my employement. I didn't even ask what they've done before now - I guess I'll do that if I get approached again. Anyway, the point of the post was to find out if anyone else has done small work on the side if you were 100% that it wouldn't be competing with your current employer and you didn't do any of that work on company time or with company resources.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
I have a little part-time side work for my old employer. It works out great since my full-time job is 100% structural work (buildings, rigging beams, etc.) and my old job was in safety. In my old job, I mostly worked on tie off anchorages and high end fall protection products, but it required a structural background.
Since my old boss is a P.E., there is no need for me to stamp anything, just engineer and draw it for him. I usually work approx. 10 hours a month for him, so it is not a lot of money compared to my full-time job.
All of the higher ups at my full-time job know what I am doing. Our employee manual actually covers "moonlighting" activities, use of their resources and the employer's E&O insurance limitations.
My best pieces of advice for you, are:
1) Depending on your state's laws, set up an L.L.C. It is $150 or so (in WI) and makes your taxes simpler, in my opinion.
2) Get an EIN from the IRS. Again, makes taxes easier in my opinion.
3) Set up a business bank account. Helps keep the money organized and separated.
4) Don't spend a ton of money on QuickBooks. They have a free version online. It works for me, but your mileage may vary.
My situation is different since I also have a "held harmless" clause in my side work contract, so I don't carry E&O insurance.
Just wondering, is the work mostly timber construction or is it heavy industrial? Again just curious.
Joel Berg
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Also, don't depend on an indemnification clause (with or without a "hold harmless" mention) to protect you from professional liability. That's only one small aspect of your risk management. jberg...you might want to re-think that approach.
I did side work for over 15 years while working for large firms. They were aware of it and in one case I made it a condition of employment.
You'll have to be careful to keep things separate...not just the work, since you won't likely be competing against your firm, but more so the time commitment. You employer comes first...if not in your eyes...certainly in his. Make sure you have no liability chain to connect the two or they (your employer) will be pissed and could sue you if problems came up. Conversely, if you get Professional Liability coverage for yourself, don't let that get pulled into any claim that is against your employer. Make sure they will continue to indemnify you on their behalf for their projects. (jberg...note that employer indemnification is often more powerful than contractual project indemnification)
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
However, problems during construction that need immediate attention DO occur creating the situation where you may have to deal with that at work. THAT SITUATION CANNOT HAPPEN. If the contractor can be made to understand (which is highly doubtful) the fact that you cannot and will not take calls at work, whatever the problem, then, OK. Otherwise, it WILL be grounds for you being fired. Count on it. I've personally seen this happen.
Under these circumstances, for now, it would be a more secure career move to bring the work into your company.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
If you can live with that, good luck. Personally, I would stay clear.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
And, if these guys would not want to pay you a fair value for the work you would do for them, why would you want to do it. Let me see, do you normally pick high risk, low yield adventures? I tend to be drawn to low risk, high yield work.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Its all about developing contacts that you can use down the road. Seems like you have the right thought process working already.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
To answer your question, if you are not a PE yet you will probably be violating your State laws. I would wait until you get your PE before you offer Engineering services.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Let me make a couple things clear:
1.) I would NOT do any personal work on company time or with company resources.
2.) I am not attempting to undercut anyone. When I said that they wouldn't pay the fees that my company would charge, I say that because my company works with top tier architects and charges exorbitant fees. I don't believe that my company would even accept the work.
3.) I already made clear that I wouldn't even consider doing this until I passed the PE.
BRGENG-
I'm not trying to undercut anyone. A homebuilder would not even contact our office for engineering services. This was a situation of a couple guys who knew I was an engineer and asked me the question. I posted here simply to see what others have done. I would not give away my services - if you note in many of my posts in other threads, I express the same concern about our profession and fees as you do. That being said, however, I know what my charge out rate is and it is over 3.5x my hourly rate. Additionally, the area I'm talking about is a very rural area that doesn't even require drawings/calcs be submitted.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Whether you are 'trying to' or not is irrelevant. You are proposing to undercut your own firm, which you justify by saying that they charge exorbitant fees.
When in a hole, stop digging.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
What is the standard rate in your area and what would you charge?
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
For many companies undercutting the opposition is how work is won and whilst it might not affect their current employer people moonlighting are taking the food from someone's table, almost certainly not a large organisation but a small local company maybe.
As long as you do nothing illegal there is nothing wrong with this, however as you already have a job and will almost certainly have lower overheads you can compete on uneven terms and by doing so will drive down the benchmark price, this soon will filter into the system and will have an impact on medium and larger companies if the recession continues.
As long as nothing illegal is done anyone is entitled to do this, but it will have a negative affect on other companies, as long as you are happy to do this go ahead but be prepared that it might come back to bite you on the rear.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
I agree with you. The flack is unnecessary. You have just posed a question, not indicated your intentions.
The only argument I would have with your posts is "my company works with top tier architects and charges exorbitant fees." I read this "my company works with very difficult architects and has to charge accordingly."
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
I'm only undercutting my own firm if they had a chance at the work in the first place. That's not true, so I disagree with you.
BRGENG-
Part of my question is how would you handle it to make sure it doesn't pose a problem for your current employment. I don't think the standard rate in MY area is as relevant as the standard rate in the area of the builders. I have no idea what I would charge, but it certainly wouldn't be undercutting anyone. As I said before, I have the same concerns about our profession and fees, and I'm certainly not going to contribute to the problem.
ajack-
That was the major point of my post - to find out any pitfalls, issues, what others have done, etc.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
You have connections where it matters (the builders) who control the architects, they can impose YOU as the structural Engineer.
Try to think even faster and farther, get into the design/build business ASAP, your contacts and Dad will set you up. As a structural Engineer, you will see that there's nothing to it.
Go do what you got to do to pave the road the road to YOUR driveway, forget about your boss, he started out by moolighting.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Further, I don't know what world you live in, but generally Architects are not controlled by contractors.
There's nothing wrong with SEIT filling a void as a sideline that his firm does not do. Many larger firms have no issue with that as long as you don't use their resources, compete for their clients or spend "their" time on other business. My sense is that SEIT would do none of those.
When he gets his P.E. license, he will likely do some sideline work. Doing so before his licensing could jeopardize his potential for getting a license if there is a claim or complaint, valid or not.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
JIM
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
Disagree with Ron (respectfully RON) on the dangers of D/B, the trend is going to the D.B nowadays. If a high school graduate contractor can do it, so can you. Without the PE. You just need a GC license.
Contractors do control architects, they feed them work.
I do agree that it makes things easier if you had your PE. My point was that time is not on your side to cash in on your father's contacts, the sooner you get in, the better off you are.
And yes, I do stand by what I said: don't worry about your boss, he started by moonlighting himself. He is only getting the change for his coin.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
The design/build you seem to be promoting is a rather low level of design/build, presumably residential. That's on a different plane as most residential does not require engineering design, though some states are now requiring it (my home state requires structural design of residential structures by a licensed engineer).
Again, about the only architects who are fed work by contractors are those doing residential work. It generally does not apply for multi-family or commercial, so to make a blanket statement as such is inaccurate.
As for your boss...I reiterate...you have an ethical obligation, usually supported by state law, to make your employer aware of "moonlighting". In some states, it is a violation of the board rules to not tell your employer. This makes you susceptible to reprimand and even fines for violation of such.
RE: Doing part time work on the side?
I would recommend however if you don't have thick skin (when I say thick I meant rhino skin) to stay away for these areas.
You generally deal with developers (and General Mangers of fabricating firms), whom don't mind taking more than their fair share and then suing you for the rest.
I would recommend if this is the market sticking to about 3-4 times you hourly rate for charging, as there is a lot of money to be lost in preliminary designs, redesign and other such things.
These guys don't care how it looks just that it is cheap and fast. Did I mention that they would want their preliminary design the day after commissioning, and then will build off this, so if you make a change you had better get out that rhino skin.
So i would agree with Ron's underlining message. Get your experience up, then get a raise and enjoy your weekends (why would you want to give these up for a few extra bucks?). Sideline work while good for a few penny's has many pit falls, that at the end of the day genrally the penny's just aren't worth it.
When in doubt, just take the next small step.