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$2500 Car
10

$2500 Car

RE: $2500 Car

Its a step back in engineering.  The car should deliver 70mpg and not 50 mpg.  It is not safe to drive except at speeds under 20 mph.

RE: $2500 Car

3
My boss got all excited about this till issues like emissions, safety etc came up.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: $2500 Car

I'm not worried about the safety as long as Big Brother outlaws any larger vehicles on the road, to include big rigs, concrete trucks, SUV's, and Prius's (3000#) to be fecious.  This will never fly in the US, except upon impact.  

It is interesting to note that, with a quick glance, the logo on the hood is very similar to that of Toyota, but dissimilar.  Kind of like the fiasco a few years ago where some products were labled, "Made in USA", as opposed to "Made in the USA.  They were actually made out of the country, in the "country" of USA.  No lie.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: $2500 Car

You still can't get rid of trees, animals, etc....

RE: $2500 Car

2
dcasto, I imagine TCO (total cost of ownership) is one of the most important factors. Could it be that the price increase to get 70 mpg (not a goal achieved by any USAn 4 seater I think) would more than offset the increased cost of fuel? Why hold the Indian car to a higher standard than your own?

Worrying about greenhouse/CO2 emissions is a rich person's conceit.

Also bear in mind that the gains in going from 50 mpg to 70 mpg are much smaller than those in going from 30 to 50.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $2500 Car

Tatra are rumoured to be about to buy Landrover.... Let's see if they can their prices down.
By the way, Greg is right. When computing the carbon footprint, it is about lifetime costs from manufacture to recycling at the end of life, not just fuel economy. I'd like to bet that these cars will be used till they literally fall apart.
It is an interesting conflict between safety and environment. Many older cars were caused to be scrapped even though they had many more functional years left in them by changes in legislation. Incidentally, in France this meant the demise of some of the more desirable old Citroens, amongst others.

Interesting would be to compute the optimum lifetime/mileage for cars; the break-even point at which further use of a less efficient car is no longer balanced by the manufacturing/recycling costs.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: $2500 Car

Rule of thumb used to be 10 years, but in practice I am sure it is more than that since the fleet is not actually getting any more efficient on a model for model basis - the new version of my car has airbags, better crash, climate control, more loudspeakers, a bigger engine, bigger tires, electric windows, maybe an electric seat, etc etc etc, so in the real world I suspect its fuel consumption is only a fraction better. It is a much better car, but that is not quite the point.

Cradle to grae analysis is incredibly difficult to do well, it is very easy to bias the result by your prejudices, witness the recent one that demonstrated that a Hummer was greener than a Prius.

Perhaps 1% of the money currently being wasted on climate change analysis could usefully be diverted towards answering your question. Fat chance.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $2500 Car

"I'd like to bet that these cars will be used till they literally fall apart."

Much like the Yugo:)

Regards,

Mike

RE: $2500 Car

M Prius is white as is my 454 Suburban...

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: $2500 Car

The maximum speed of the car is 65 mph, and that's probably with a tail wind too. As a town car though, it's no doubt a winner. I've seen other cars that look equally perilous (such as the Smart car www.smart.com) but then I wouldn't drive one of them down a motorway either. Given that the price of one of these is about the same as the annual depreciation of a family car, then presumably you could just buy a new one each year. At last, the disposable car!

For safety on the roads though, I've always advocated having a huge spike coming from the steering wheel aimed at the centre of your chest. Might make the boy racers and BMW drivers think twice about being 2 foot from your back-side going down the motorway when I slam the brakes on.

corus

RE: $2500 Car

I wonder how much it would cost with the typical creature comforts required by the US market: auto transmission, power steering, air con, big stereo, bazilliions of air bags, "fog" lights, walnut dash, etc...  Probably a bit more than $2500.

- Steve

RE: $2500 Car

The main impact of the new Tata car is that it will generate a huge new demand for gasoline , and the new equilibrium point for oil will increase accordingly.

As for all new types of cars with fantastic fuel mileage, their use will totally scramble the means for financing road repair and construction, which basically explains the new propsoal to increase the US fuel gas tax by another $0.40  / gal. Some sort of add'l registration fee would likely need to be added to electric cars that primarily run on battery charge- although they still use the roads, they don't pay for them via the fuel tax.

 When it comes to avoiding taxes, there is no free lunch- last weeks paper had an article about another greenie that was fined megabuck for running his diesel on french fry oil without paying the fuel use tax.

RE: $2500 Car

davefitz hit the nail squarely on the head.  Here comes a tidal wave of demand for gasoline.  Sales of this or a similar vehicle to the masses in India and China will deplete oil reserves faster than already projected.  Regardless of whether or not we've hit peak oil already, I predict $5/gallon gasoline within 5 years.  Now thats what I call the future of engineering.

RE: $2500 Car

davefitz,

I think that increasing the gas tax is something that should definately be done in the USA, at the moment it is not sufficient to cover all the costs associated with vehicle use. It is also the only way to encourage drivers to buy fuel efficient cars.

Youngturk,

The oil reserves are only an issue because the USA has used so much of it! It is a bit selfish to complain when other countries want to use their share.

RE: $2500 Car

Do you see any actual complaint in my post?  Its a bit presumptive to call my prediction a complaint.  I simply stated my opinion of the impact of such mass produced technology on oil supply.

RE: $2500 Car

sorry

RE: $2500 Car

Considering inflation over the years gas (or petrol as it's properly called) is the cheapest it's ever been, and probably will still be even with any increase in taxataion.

Personally I think the future is in the compressed air car (http://www.theaircar.com/). As well as being 'green' it also has the advantage that when it runs out of air then you can hook your mother-in-law up in the back seat and tell her to blow. Should keep the old bag quiet for a while.

corus

RE: $2500 Car

Your inflation claim didn't ring true, so I looked.  Sorry, but as an engineer I've learned to fact check.  I find:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/18/news/economy/gas_prices/index.htm

and

http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Gasoline_inflation_chart.htm

Seems the overall trend is downward since 1980, HOWEVER, price spikes since 2005 have created parity with prices (inflation adjusted) at that point, which I believe was the high water mark for adjusted gas prices.

A gas price increase from $3 to $5 over five years requires an average increase of 10-11% per year, well and above inflation.  Given current record inflation adjusted gas prices, $5 in 2013 would be greatly exceed any previous inflation adjusted gas prices, which is liable to create some serious economic impact.

RE: $2500 Car

I do not think that it will be 5 years for $5/gallon gas.  I think that it should be here by the end of this year due to the weakness of the dollar, the demand of India and China, the wars, and our current economic and foreign policies that are further weakening the dollar.  

As the price of gas goes up, in theory the demand should drop, not factoring in the effects of India and China.  Should be interesting to watch.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: $2500 Car

Corus & YoungTurk, might help if you said which country you're talking about, I think Turk that may be part of the confusion.

In the UK, the price of the oil is a relatively small proportion of the total cost of petrol/gas at the pump, the rest is tax.  So while prices there have gone up due to oil price increses as a % of total cost it's a lot less than in the US.

Let me put it this way.  Gas prices at the pump in the UK haven't roughly double over the last 4 years like they have in the US (at least my part).

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: $2500 Car

$5 per gallon is more like what people should be paying in the US, $6 would be closer to the mark.

I love my long car trips, but ....

RE: $2500 Car

Very true, talking about the USA for my part.  I realize our gas prices dont always move in lock step with European or other regions, especially due to the current currency debacle.  I would, however, expect trending to be similar and the effects of increased Asian demand to be worldwide.

RE: $2500 Car

Look at figure 2 on the link.

http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm17.htm

It's a bit old and I haven't checked its accuracy but it gives some idea.  Obviously the price of oil increases recently make the blue portion a lot bigger now than in 2004 but it still gives some idea of the ratio of tax.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: $2500 Car

I paid  a 1.25 EUR per liter last friday in Austria

1.25x 3.8 = 4.75EUR X(1 EUR = 1.46696 USD) =6.96808 USD/Gal

Thats a kick to the nuts....

RE: $2500 Car

So why are you paying more $2500 for a car in the US? Maybe it's a streach for some of you to purchase a used car, but looking at the used car lists there are plenty of good cars for $2500 or less. And the benifit is they are here, and made of real steel.

RE: $2500 Car

good link kenat

RE: $2500 Car

I filled my car up with Diesel today at £1.09 per litre.  Which, assuming i did the conversion properly, is $8.11 per US gallon.  Austria seems cheap.

by the way is "gas" the name for both petrol and diesel?

RE: $2500 Car

Great link, Kenat, a star.

In the US at least we say gas meaning gasoline or petrol and refer to diesel as diesel.  Current prices here in Wisconsin are about $3.10 gas (minimum octane/regular) and $3.40 diesel.  Are you in the UK Ussuri?

RE: $2500 Car

gas is petrol, benzin
Diesel is Diesel, NAFTA

RE: $2500 Car

Official websites of the TATA Nano aka Indian People's Car

http://www.tatanano.com/tatamotors/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

http://www.tatamotors.com/our_world/press_releases.php?ID=340&action=Pull

msquared48

Its genuine and truely Indian Brand. Tata's have last year bought Corus. And this is not meant for the US market, obviously.

jmw

Its TATA and not Tatra.

davefitz

I do not agree on huge increase in demand. Basicaly if this car is owned it will be for the basic need of transportation for a middle and lower class family. So in fact this car may replace a two wheeler used for the same purpose. And given the manufacturing capacity (just 250 000 in first two years) I doubt one will see "huge" increase as you say.
And I was reading somewhere and some analyst has said that the company has to wait minimum for two years to break even or more to see profits.
regards.
Siddharth.

Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.

RE: $2500 Car

I'd agree that 250,000 cars will not generate a huge demand for gasoline, at least not by themselves.  But it is part of a burgeoning low price car market, and a car at this price point will generate competition for to lowest dollar practical vehicle.  That competition, and resulting flood of new customers into the car market will generate the wave of demand.  

Remember, Ford didn't invent the car, he just invented the first mass produced car.  Only 750 Model A's were produced in 1903-1904.  70,000 Model Ts were sold in 1911.  

Quote:

In 2006 16 million new automobiles were sold in the USA, 15 million in Western Europe, 7 million in China [2] and 2 million in India.

(Referenced Wikipedia)

How long before Asia overtakes America?

RE: $2500 Car

YoungTurk

Competition in the global market is inevitable and so the affordable prices as a result. So would you be happy to see the car prices lowered or not?

Very soon Asia can overtake as soon as the sales in USA or Western EU drops to half(as per the ref you gave). I couldnt understand your take on this.

1 person x more than 1 car = luxury
1 family x 1 car = necessity

with this equation one can understand the sales trend you have explained.

Regards

Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.

RE: $2500 Car

Siddarths post, the issues about the Nano replacing two wheelers and the essential need for transport, rather than essential+gadgets+gizmos+luxury are not understood by many.

When the imperative is to be able to transport yourself and family, the most basic, reliable means is what will sell.

The Model T has been mentioned, in the UK it was probably the Austin Seven. Even in their time, these vehicles would be criticised as crude and unrefined -- just as many criticise the Nano, but they sold. Why, because transportation was the need. To get about. To move people. To move things.

Bill

RE: $2500 Car

Ladas sold in Canada- there's always a market for the very cheapest product you can buy, regardless how poorly made.  It may not last, though, and you presume the thing will meet the safety standards and other regs on North American roads.  Canada's ZENN low-speed electricl car isn't permissible to drive on Canadian streets for instance.

RE: $2500 Car

WGJ,

Thanks for your write up, may be I wasnt able to put the message clearly. I remember the days when I was very young and we four, my dad, mother, my elder brother and myself used to travel on a scooter. Its still the same in India. Its fun rather.

There may be a debate on how much safety is safe and same time practical/economical? Even Princess Diana had to suffer with the high tech vehicle she was in during the accident. I doubt if anyone can make human life or other being, safe from everything.
regards

Below is the excerpt fromt the interview of Mr Ratan Tata, Chairman of Tata Group.

http://www.tata.com/0_media/features/interviews/20080110_one_lakh_car.htm

"The Tatas and you, in particular, are on the brink of realising a long-cherished ambition. Do you feel vindicated? Are you apprehensive?"

There has always been some sort of unconscious urge to do something for the people of India and transport has been an area of interest. As urbanisation gathers pace, personal transport has become a big issue, especially since mass transport is often not available or is of poor quality. Two-wheelers — with the father driving, the elder child standing in front and the wife behind holding a baby — is very much the norm in this country. In that form two-wheelers are a relatively unsafe mode of transporting a family. The two-wheeler image is what got me thinking that we needed to create a safer form of transport.



 

Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.

RE: $2500 Car

Kenat, good link.
The fig 2 commentary says:

Quote:

This suggests that fuel taxes could increase significantly without reducing North American economic competitiveness.
This is quite obviously a nonsense.
If the only factor affecting economic competitiveness were fuel costs it could be true. But if it were true then the other countries quoted would have had to take action to restore their own competitiveness. Indeed, market forces would have forced a levelling out of fuel prices within western economies some decades ago.

Fig 3 tells a story that says where you have long distances to drive, high tax burdens cannot be sustained. It is less about economic competitiveness probably than domestic driving issues.

Sid7:

Quote:

Competition in the global market is inevitable and so the affordable prices as a result. So would you be happy to see the car prices lowered or not?
Ah but it isn't a global market, is it?

Note how standards vary from one country to another such that the Car you buyin the Uk has a different set of brakes, lights etc than the version you buy in the US and look what the US lighting requirements did to the E-type design.

Each market enjoys some protection and the success of Japan over the years in blocking foreign car sales while selling its own cars worldwide shows how the game can be played.

I suspect there is no danger of the Tata (thanks Sid7) being sold into any of the "protected" markets any time soon. Anyway, if this car did reach the UK, say, then you can bet it would carry at least a £7-8k price tag.

This is a car for the domestic market. It should be judged as such.
It must represent a significant advance on all those heavy Morris Oxfords, Cambridges etc with their primitive brakes  and well suited to the domestic market in terms of cost of ownership, maintenance etc..
I hesitate to suggest it will create a vast expansion in fuel use when in fact it may displace some old and inefficient gas guzzling museum pieces.

I also doubt that a significant proportion of the road system would sustain high speed driving or if it did, safety might probably be expected to be better than currently, except that driving would appear to be conducted with greater regard for karma than hydraulic dual circuit power assisted disc brakes or whether they work or not (this is the only country in the world where my wife managed to have a proper wreck, and woke up in hospital as a result, despite the competition from a fair selection of the East Block countries, Turkey, Iran and Iraq. She had made the drive from Berlin in a VW Thing. Pretty adventurous huh? or just her lousy map reading and she was really headed for Potsdam? I dare not ask, this was before we met.)

PS,
Corus,
Smart cars not for you?
Come on, these are a funky Mercedes built in Munich aren't they? and they fairly zip along the motorways (at above the legal limit).
I quite like them but I am not sure I'd fit in one and I suspect that I'd destroy the Power to weight ratio anyway.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: $2500 Car

jmw

Thanks jmw for the post. Well this car aint aimed at global market. And my comment is in particular response to YoungTurk's equivalent us dollar car price statement.

Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.

RE: $2500 Car

Siddharth
I've seen a few items on other sites discussing the Nano. A whole lot of people in 'the west' just don't get it, as we say.

Bill

RE: $2500 Car

WGJ

Only the time would prove the worthiness of a creative techonological economic means of transport from a committed business group to fulfil the promise made to the common public.

IMHO, Tata is an invaluable heritage to India and many Indians would trust in their effort without doubt.

Best regards.

Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.

RE: $2500 Car

I heard an interview in which someone said that car is more fuel-efficient than a new motorcycle.  I forget who it was being interviewed, though.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: $2500 Car

(OP)
I heard that Tata is thinking of buying Jaguar (haven't heard about Rover).

Maybe then, the price of Jags will also come down! winky smile

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: $2500 Car

Tata is the Ford preferred purchaser of both the Jaguar and Land Rover (NOT Rover) businesses.
Negotiations have, apparently, entered a final stage.
Ford initally said that a final bidder was going to be nominated last October, so the process is a couple of months later than originally set.

Interestingly, a review of the Tata website reveals the dealership cover that Tata has. Nothing is shown for the USA, so, if the purchase goes through, Tata will get a small, but ready-made, dealer network in critical areas of the US via existing Jag & LR outlets, I presume.

US and European business should also acjknowledge that the Nano is but one facet of Tatas empire which, I believe already produces a significant volume of commercial vehicles in addition to other passenger cars and pickups.

Bill

RE: $2500 Car

Sid7,

I don't really have a "take" except that I believe there will be drastic increases in the number of cars on Asian roads and a correlated increase in demand for gasoline (and raw materials).  Whether or not I'm happy to see these cheap cars available isn't really relevant.  Its not necessary to discuss approval or disapproval of a trend to predict or identify it.  I just think that is "where engineering is going in the next 5 years," like the forum says.

That being said, my opinion is that I'd like to see a global reduction in demand for fossil fuels.  And although western countries certainly have used more than our fair share, it would seem high population density Asian countries without a developed automobile system are the preferred place to change the paradigm of transportation.  Unfortunately, social and economic forces (including my own) do not always allow the theoretical best situation. (Yes I'm a commuter).

JMW puts it quite well as to the significant differences between North American and European or Asian transportation realities.  Simply said, our economy is built around the ability to transport goods and labor over large distances cheaply.  I've met European tourists baffled at the idea that they can't do a driving tour of the US on a one or two week vacation.

RE: $2500 Car

What is amazing is the number of commuters there are, and the number of communities that don't have mass transportation, so cars are required in most of the US.
From what I've seen outside the US, there are many places where a car is not required. But the lowering of the cost of a car will increase the number of commuers in those countries.
This will lead to many problems unforseen by most of the population. And it is our place to look at those issues and develop new ideas.
The cheep car is a tool, which will become a problem, as it's use will be to cover another problem. The lack of good mass transporation.

I rode the trains in Newark once, but for the cost, I would probally drive if I lived there.

RE: $2500 Car

Regarding the cost of transport...

It would cost me c. £80 (or more) to drive to my mother's house and back.  A coach costs less than £50.  That's £30 of booze for the trip smile

- Steve

RE: $2500 Car

I don't know how much that is. But my mother would be preaty set off if I showed up at her house half drunk.
Besides the drive to my mother's house is 5 hours. Consiter that there are no passenger trains, or busses here. A plane would take several connections and take much longer.
And I'm back to my point of lack of good mass transportation.

So here I am with a car valued at about $2500, and with 150000 miles on it, and an EPA estimated 30 MPG rating.

RE: $2500 Car

... only joking.  My point is that fuel taxes here (and the basic automotive ownership costs) make train/coach travel viable for the single traveller.

- Steve

RE: $2500 Car

actually, every single home has access to a bus in the US, but currently they are relegated to only transporting students. In a fuel emergency, they could , in theory, be used to transport workers to discrete transport nodes.

RE: $2500 Car

Then what would you do with all the kids???

RE: $2500 Car

let them sleep late, then  watch Oprah.

RE: $2500 Car

In parts of the US there is no connecting bus service between towns or cities. So even if you could take a school bus, and walk from the school to whereever, there is no connecting service.

I guess the thumb still works, but were back to the car again.

RE: $2500 Car

I remember reading stories and watching documentaries about the auto industry buying bus and train lines in the 40's, 50's, and 60's to shut them down.  Interurban trains would be wonderful - again.  It will be decades before the US begins to have decent mass transit.

I bought a full sized pickup last spring when my old job required I carry an extension ladder from time to time.  Now I wish I had a little car to get around.

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: $2500 Car

The trouble is most public transport is geared to the wrong objectives and delivers the wrong services to the wrong people. I don't want my tax money to subsidise some stock broker's train fairs from his rural retreat to his job in the city. Many people don't want a public transport system that makes it easier for the criminals to expand their activities from the poor inner cities to the suburban and rural areas.

However, it isn't long distance public transport that we need to sort out.
It isn't the connection between one city and the next we need to worry about but local travel, journeys of a mile or two.
The real focus should be on local loops. All those short distance journeys from home to the shops etc. If you want to tackle that then you could make a serious dent in the pollution problems.
It isn't easy to get people out of their cars when they travel long distances but it should be possible to target the short journeys and these make up a substantial proportion of all car use... one indicator is in the accidents statistics which show most accidents happen within a mile or two of home.... high frequency short journeys, least fuel efficient and most polluting.

But most public transport entails transient services that pass through and by and not a local loop only service. If we can justify the tax spend on some of the things they waste money on then we can afford it here. We need electric buses every 5-10 minute, free and with a boarding platform for rapid getting on and off.
Create a local service that links all the main nodes and make it more convenient than the car. Bus lanes, sensor controlled lights, priority for buses and traffic behaviour as per school buses.
Here's a target:
max 5 minutes walk, max 5 minute wait and max 5 minute journey.

Use planning laws to cut down on superstore parking allowances. Instead of them bribing their way to planning permission with new sports centres and fact finding tours for the local councillors, make them provide minimum level local bus buses.



JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: $2500 Car

I can see that for travel to and from work. But for a trip to a store, any store, how do you manage numbers of bags?
Years ago I lived 3 blocks from a grocery store, and they were not happy with there carts leaving there parking lot.

An inexpencive rechargable car would work well here.
But I see only the gas car that fits that description.

There is a good point I see here; why can't mass transit be based somewhat around school transport?

RE: $2500 Car

Well, the little old ladies I see have shopping trolleys of their own. Maybe there would be a market for a collapsible shopping trolley.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $2500 Car

With ref to the OP and how the thread has changed.......it's amazing that we all live on the same planet and are still worlds apart in terms of understanding how other nations live and get by.

Bill

RE: $2500 Car

Used to be, you would shop for a day or two.  If we did that again, we wouldn't need carts, and could use local transport.  I currently shop every two weeks, and need my truck.  I have teenagers to feed.  Come to think of it, I would still need my truck smile

RE: $2500 Car

I have to laugh at jmw, opening...

The city I live in was going to get major money 15 yrs ago to extend the subway, but the rich suburban people did not want  (There are recordings of the town hall meets with very bad words on them) poor people taking the train to the suburbs and steeling stuff...

I have to laugh because of the logic, so someone is going to take a train, steel your TV, then carry it to the train and ride the train with a TV….and manage to avoid the cops, train ticketing people, all the video cameras at the stations.

Ironically, most of the current crime in my city has been caused by suburban Anglo-Saxon upper middle class teens….

RE: $2500 Car

jmw, I didn't review the whole site (hence my disclaimer), I just wanted figure 2 so that people in various parts of the world could get a better idea of how the taxes on fuel vary.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: $2500 Car

Fair enough Kenat, and thanks guys for not correcting my train fairs to train fares.

Sorry to Ashereng for going so far off topic.

By the way, there have been some very interesting BBC programs on the Indian Railway system recently, looking at the services and the lives of the people who depend on the railways for a living.....

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

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