×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

"Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?
2

"Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

"Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1859490,00.html
"Dublin-based Steorn challenged the world's 'most qualifi ed and the most cynical' scientists to put its technology, based on magnetic interaction, to the test."
Note: this is not April 1st but then, Christmass has already started in the high street shops.

They claim (http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx):
 

Quote:

"We have developed a technology that produces free, clean and constant energy.

This means never having to recharge your phone, never having to refuel your car. A world with an infinite supply of clean energy for all.

Our technology has been independently validated by engineers and scientists - always off the record, always proven to work."

and see here: http://www.steorn.net/en/technology.aspx?p=5

So, comments anyone?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
PS they claim:
"Steorn’s technology is based on the interaction of magnetic fields and allows the production of clean, free and constant energy. The technology can be applied to virtually all devices requiring energy, from cellular phones to cars."

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

If one had a >100% efficiency machine, one wouldn't need investors.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Newman machine, Raser Technology, Steorn. They seem to come more frequent now when energy is getting dearer. Fatter chances to get some poor fellow on the hook.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Well if true it would certainly put sliced bread in second spot.

However as star trek is set in the future it would also mean that the chief engineer was an incompetent Scottish buffoon that is too much. I will remain sceptical.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?


The laws of thermodynamics are statistical in essence. Meaning that -at least in theory- they could be contradicted, but this only with a probability →zero.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Maxwell's Demon?

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?


Could be, but more like Isaac Asimov's Multivac computer in "The Last Question".

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

The End is near, then?  sad

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

I see. "People Peak" will come before "Oil Peak". Ergo: No need for new energy. Bad news for Steorn.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

We can’t deny something that we don’t know.
But at a given distance one simple magnet can induce a rotation movement to other magnet only by magnetic force.
“In physics, a magnetic field is that part of the electromagnetic field that exists when there is a changing electric field. A changing electric field can be caused by the movement of an electrically charged object, as in an electric current; or a combination of the orbit of an electron around an atom and the spin of electrons themselves, as in a permanent magnet.”
“Steorn’s technology is based on the interaction of magnetic fields and allows the production of clean, free and constant energy. The technology can be applied to virtually all devices requiring energy, from cellular phones to cars.”
Is it Steorn’s technology the Colombo’s egg or one more web a mystification?

luis

atom

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Excuse me for saying so. But “In physics, a magnetic field is that part of the electromagnetic field that exists when there is a changing electric field. A changing electric field can be caused by the movement of an electrically charged object, as in an electric current; or a combination of the orbit of an electron around an atom and the spin of electrons themselves, as in a permanent magnet.” is nothing but a heap of what bulls leave behind if you use it in this context.

The rotation you mention is a one-time movement to bring the magnet plus whatever you have to a state of minimal energy. After that nothing more happens. You could as well refer to a stone dropping to ground. That is also a one-time movement that only releases as much energy as you needed to lift the stone.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

If you put a magnet in the door of a refrigerator it will not fall down because the attraction force of the magnet (magnetic force) is stronger than gravitational force.

For you it will be impossible separate two strong magnets
(Magnetic force)

For you, if still young, it will be easy to jump to get an apple from the apple tree
(Gravitational force)

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

???

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

I thought the "patent pending" note was interesting.  This device comes under the few "unpatentable" categories in the US, Perputual Motion.  A device that creates usuable energy with zero energy input would definately meet the definition of "perputual motion" so it is likely to be pending for a while.

Wouldn't this device continually increase the total energy stored in the universe?  Maybe we're on our way to the next "big boom"?

David

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

They are smarted than that.  They've patented what is supposed to be parts of their invention that do not specifically cause perpetual motion.  Note that the PTO does not verify whether something actually is a perpetual motion machine.  You simply have to tack on something that makes it lose energy and a patent will be pending.  

This subject has already been posted in another forum, along with links to their existing patent:
thread238-163098

TTFN



RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

"Patent pending" does not mean:
a.) patent will be granted
b.) invention works

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Just being curious about this subject and after some searching it seems that Steorn´s Technology is a sensionalist story because they don’t explain it.

Any way some physics defend that:
 
“It is well known that in electric motors one component of the constant magnetic field executes mechanical work while the component normal to it receives electric work, in such a way that the total work of the induced magnetic field is null. Let us take two permanent free magnets. The experience demonstrates that one can speed up the other in a variety of ways and, therefore, we have to accept in this case that the variation of a magnetic field produces work, despite the discomfort that the affirmation cause to us because of the statement which says that the induced magnetic field does not product work. How to solve then this problem?”

Fridge magnets don’t have any source of energy so how do they fight gravity?


"All great truths begin as blasphemies".

worm

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

A floor doesn't have a source of energy. It seems to fight gravity perfectly well! At least when I stand on it...

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

A motionless object expends no energy.

TTFN



RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

I suspect thaat 0707 was getting at the usual conundrum - if I hold a magnet over a steel pin, the pin jumps up to the magnet, gaining potential energy. Where does that energy come from?

The answer is of course not immediately obvious, and causes hours of fun in pubs and physics classrooms everywhere.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Hey 707,

If you try to tell us that perpetual motion is a reality. Why don't you just say so?

That old magnet trick may fool yourself. But not many other.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

jmv has taken the right decision to put this topic in the Engineering History forum rather than in the Where's Engineering going forum, because there's really nothing new.
Medicine men and pseudo scientists have always managed to fool the masses and always will. smile

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
Nice to get something right once in a while!

The fact that Steorn hasn't revealed all is no help since instead of being able to de-bunk yet another "gyroscope" antigravity craft, etc etc we are supposed to sit back and be open minded (gullible?) and admit the possibility they may have something we don't yet understand, or we denounce them as charlatans (close minded?) on general principals i.e. all such previous claims are bunk or that they must be violating one of the conservation laws. (about the only ture law or postulate is Barnum's "there's one born every minute!").

If we assume they have an observed effect, we could just assume two things:
1) what the designed didn't work as they expected (they didn't set out to develop this)
2) they have no idea what's really happening, i.e. no explanation for the observed effect
3) their observations are flawed.

I suppose we ought to assume their observation appears correct but is flawed: for example, when they did their energy balance,  did they just balance their known energy source with the derived energy or did they consider the interaction witb the surroundings? I mean, this is a "micro-generator with lots of interacting magnetic fields", perhaps they have another energy input they haven't accounted for such as external electro-magentic field interactions or radiant energy... be interesting to know if the observations are verifiable and if the effect is duplicated when scaled up.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Greg

Excuse my ignorance but I don’t know what is a conundrum. So I invite you to post this term in the English grammar forum.

I like you all, and this posting is a good exercise for our brains to answer “if Fridge magnets don’t have any source of energy so how do they fight gravity?

This is only to have fun not to get ourselves fool!!!

Science and curiosity without fun is a sadness...

Best regards to you all

luis

atom

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

jmw, you are right (again smile, there is a balance between being open minded and denouncing charlatans (close minded as you say). Of course open-mindedness is required for any scientific progress so we have to be open minded, on the other hand the "laws" (theories) of physics are there to understand and predict phenomena i.e. allow us to have a certain opinion about machines like these before having seen and tested every single detail... until proven wrong of course.
The law of conservation of energy (mass-energy if you like) has served us very well to denounce perpetuum mobiles (can't think of the correct Latin plural right now) for many centuries, so... open minded, sure, but let's just say that the burden of proof in this case is not on our side.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

yeh! so conundrum is a kind of a... banghead

thank you

regards

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
Some other links:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:LRP:A_Proposed_Proof_of_an_Overunity_Asymmetric_System_to_be_Tested

If anyone understands this, let me know.
It began to sound like a Sci-Fi explanation of FTL travel, or "pseudoscience" and the link to Tom Beardens website was like Von Daniken had risen again.
But Tom Bearden appears appropriatley credentialed and so there may be something in it.
Then again:
The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG)

Quote:

One build-up has produced up to 100 times more power than was input
Overunity performance successfully replicated independently by other researchers
(http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm)

This appears to predate the Steorn publicity and one wonders if there is a link since instead of saying "Been there, done that, see you in court since i have a patent" Tom Bearden appears to be backing up Steorn:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:LRP:A_Proposed_Proof_of_an_Overunity_Asymmetric_System_to_be_Tested
But who are "Pure Energy Systems"?

There again, I am still open to cold fusion being possible (and why not?) Actually, cold fusion seesm to have more credability at this stage.
So I will probably have to leave this to the professional debunkers and just wait until my next mobile phone has a Steorn generator in it before I believe in anything again.
Actually, I am quite a credulous sort, the sort PT Barnum believes in, you might think: I believe my wife when she says she got a bargain, usually a pair of shoes that she never wears. But then again, I never win any arguments on that acount so what hope do I have with perpetual motion and overunity asymetric systems?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?


A breeder-type nuclear reactor actually produces more fuel than it consumes. Should we call it a perpetuum mobile ?

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Breeder reactors are what people have in mind when they talk about conservation of mass/energy instead of the traditional conservation of energy.  If you do the arithmetic on the energy developed in the initial reaction plus the mass of fissionable material produced plus the energy developed in the "bred" reaction plus the mass of the fssion products inm the secondary reaction you'll find that a healthy amount of energy is produced in useable form, but there is also a large amount that is converted to unusable forms of energy.  Nothing about that process suggests perpetual motion to me, I think of it as closer to "recycling".

David

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The harder I work, the luckier I seem

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

jmv, believe me, if someone really invented a cold fusion based perpetual mobile, he would not bla bla about it, he would be selling it on every street corner. As long as it's not in the shops........

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
As you get older and reflect on the rate of change, see new developments you would never have even imagined, when the only hight tech item in the house when you were nougyt but a lad is a Television with a 6" black and white picture made of about 10 flickery lines, and then look at everything we have today, it gets harder and harder to make that definite denial because you are sure than some one will prove you wrong in the next moment.

So just how sacrosanct are the laws of physics?

Didn't some great scientist once say "There is no new physics, everything there is to know we now know" only to have the atom split the following day? (was it Rutherford? Kelvin or someone like that?)

So I guess I am not so much open minded and deathly affeared of  making a complete ass of myself... of course, this is catch 22 territory.... the alternative is to be just a bit too ready to be open to belive the next charalatan with his better mousetrap...

So, a very good suggestion, Epoisses, I'll wait till it's in the shops and then i can believe it. Until then I'll just nod knowingly and let everyone else make fools of themseleves.



 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

No jmw, I do not subscribe to that.

There is development and there are physical laws. Period.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

I have a new law of physics and human nature that I am refining.  The rough draft...

Quote:

The less that one knows about physics and energy, the more he will have to say about perpetual motion.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

There are many things that were considered once "Not possible" that are now possible.
In every case that I am aware of the breakthrough was the development of new materials and/or devices, not a change in the laws of physics.
Many of the functions now handled routinely by imbeded computer chips were not possible until computer chips of adequate speed and ability were developed.
No physical laws were broken, although astronomical numbers of electrons were inconvenienced.
respectfully

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
Skogs,
you are right, of course, and especially in this instance, but Spock-like logic is always undermined in humans by emotions.... the brain (and one set of emotions; the "there's no such thing as a free lunch" voice) says that these guys are con-merchants of the first order and then some other little nagging voice asks if you can ever be really certain, and it is that last little nagging voice that sometimes helps you push the boundaries of conventional or received wisdom and come up with something useful....

Following the links on "Overunity asymetric" widgets lead me to the site of Thomas E Bearden, (and who am I to oppose this emminent scientist who assuredly knows more than I even if he were a con-merchant) and from there via a refernce to Gabriel Kron to anti-gravity devices.... http://pesn.com/2005/11/16/9600203_New_Nazi_Bell/
OK so what if none of it is true, its certainly facinating reading.

Back to Thomas E and his article "Chasing the Dragon" where he says (of overunity devices) "The resulting overunity machine accomplishes both room temperature superconductivity and also overunity coefficient of performance (Figure 16). It does not violate the conservation laws of physics. It does not violate the second law of thermodynamics because it is an open system receiving and utilizing excess energy from the vacuum, and the second law need not apply to such systems. [note 18]"

All this leaves us to consider is if there is the energy flow we can tap into.....

Anyway, such topics are always good fun however seriously or not they must be considered. Some of you may even have fun debunking them.


JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
Hey, it gets better. Never mind anti-gravity, a goggle of Thomas E came up with this....
http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=16902006
which claims the US government is investigating hyperspace engines.....

Whow! how dull life was before the Internet!

And now back to some serious work.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

Which goes to prove that Government doesn't always attract the brightest souls. Our state-owned energy company Vattenfall actually bought shares in the Newman machine. I felt genuinly ashamed when I read about it in the newspapers.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

(OP)
Having read Thomas E.'s bio and the list of articles and associations, one can't help but be greatful he isn't the guy with his finger on the button....

There are of course plenty of debunking sites out there.... but perhaps the "tell" we are looking for with Steorn is the money angle. They have actually spent quite a bit of someones money on full page newspaper adverts and lots more besides.

Some of these other sites have their books and articles for sale and presumably Steorn will at some point offer shares for sale but I gues the whole point of the big lie is the big payoff... and I am waiting to see what it is.

THomas E has at least has managed to have a  US patent awarded for his MEG device; give the man his due, he could be a 419 scammer but instead, he has taken the "big lie" into an art form. The least we can do is enjoy the fun.
(But what does this tell us about the US patent system?)

PS, it's always a nice touch that when these scams fail (i.e. don't deliver, not that the scammers get caught) that there are always "conspiracy" theories to fall back on; the oil giants are supressing just about everything that threatens their oil dollars etc etc.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

I am entering this discussion a little late.
 Is what this guy has, a revisit of the June issue of the 1970 Popular Science Magazine. regarding permanent magnet motors or the work of Jearl Waler and Paul Monus, or does he have something else?
B.E.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

The theoretical hyperspace engine at least appears to be based on some physico-mathmatical theory, although I wonder how the New Scotsman can write that a first engine will be ready for testing 5 years from now and keep a straight face, or did I miss the irony?
The perpetuum mobile on the contrary... The more desperately an inventor tries to explain how and especially why his invention works, the less credible he is. A real invention is kept secret and sold in opaque little boxes that mere mortals can't open.

RE: "Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam?

The 5 yr timeline is attributed to Hauser, who should know better than that.  

The videos that Steorn has posted on are rather lame.  Can't see squat and they're using a Radio Shack DMM, for which you can't even see its display, not that it's that relevant, since they've never shown anything resembling a block diagram or schematic.

Overall, I'm disappointed.  If they're real, they're incompetent; if they're scammers, they're incompetent.  I could come up with a better video show that what they're shown.

These guys are so lame.  Even the magic lubricant guys are better at this; at least, they get someone to use their product for a year, "proving" that there's an improvement in performance.  

You would think that in the months of this hoopla, they could have wired up someone's house and run it for a year on a AA-cell or something like that, to prove that it works.

TTFN



Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members! Already a Member? Login



News


Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close