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lean duplex
9

lean duplex

lean duplex

(OP)
Has anyone in this forum used or specofied a lean duplex, such as 2101, 2003, or 2304? If so, what has been your experience? If you have considered using one of these, but decided against it, what were your reasons?

Michael McGuire
http://stainlesssteelforengineers.blogspot.com/

RE: lean duplex

Here it goes.
These alloys are seeing use in some plate applications (tanks) that I know of.  Usually replacing 304 or 316 and saving money by reducing the weight.
There are very few applications in more highly engineered products.  In my case, tubing.  The biggest reason is that most companies no longer know the details behind their material selection decisions.  They layed all of those guys off years ago.
In order for these alloys to have an advantage you either need  to have your product stronger, or you need to be able to make it lighter.
I am having trouble finding companies that have the skills required to re-evaluate designs and take advantage of these features.
I am selling into one place right now.  He is not saving any money because he is using the same size tube, but he has gained CSCC resistance over the old 316 part.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion, every where, all the time.
Manage it or it will manage you.
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: lean duplex

Ed,

Any temperature range advantages?

RE: lean duplex

(OP)
Ed
 Why not do some model redesigns on items like heat exchangers, or some other common equipment your customers buy 316L for, and show the savings possible? Some customers need spoon feeding.

Michael McGuire
http://stainlesssteelforengineers.blogspot.com/

RE: lean duplex

The design changes are not my decision, they are the custoemrs responsability.  I have to keep that line clear.  As a supplier I only suggest, they select.
I have layed out the trade offs for some of them.  They just can't make the decision.

As far as temp, just like any duplex or ferritic.  You should be above -40F and below 650F.  The lean grades are more forgiving than a higher alloy duplex or ferritic.  Most of these grades will actually tolerate hours at 1400F before you see much decrease in toughness, as opposed to minutes in higher alloy grades.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion, every where, all the time.
Manage it or it will manage you.
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: lean duplex

Thanks Ed.

Will keep that in mind for my next high temp application.

RE: lean duplex

(OP)
Ed
 Doesn't anybody make a business of designing and producing heat exchangers, again for instance? They would have a tremendous product advantage if they were to adopt these better alloys.
 If it's all done by an in-house maintenance/engineering group, then I see what you're up against.

Michael McGuire
http://stainlesssteelforengineers.blogspot.com/

RE: lean duplex

mcguire;
Purchase of new heat exchanger equipment can be done by several different approaches. As a user of equipment, we can hire an AE firm that would develop a Technical Specification that goes out for bid to companies like TEI, or YUBA (I am only using these two heat exchanger companies as examples, this is not a plug for either of them) that design, fabricate and install these components. The user has handed off all aspects of the job to these companies. The selection of material can come from two sources - the customer, or by the heat exchanger company (TEI or YUBA). If it is by the customer, they can deal direct with the mill supplying the tubing OR go thru the heat exchanger company itself.

The other option for users of heat exchangers is a re-tube of an existing heat exchanger. Again, the user has two options -hire an AE firm to develop a Tech Spec and once again go to YUBA or TEI for their recommendation OR you work with a mechanical contractor and mill that supplies tubing.


This is my opinion – “ user's today seem more adverse to risk and, as such, seem to rely on outside firms to Engineer, Procure and Construct. I personally do not agree with this method of business. I presently work for a company that decided to at least keep some technical core competency to work directly with suppliers like Trent or others to afford the best material selection”.

RE: lean duplex

I'll throw in another supplier perspective.  Like Ed said the major applications for lean duplex have been for storage tanks in the chemical and pulp and paper industry.  Primarily ones that are insulated externally and there is a concern with under insulation cracking due to chlorides if 304L were used.  When the strength is incorporated into the design it can be cost competitive with 304L.  Like Ed said, many do not have the desire or resources to do a redesign to realize such savings.

RE: lean duplex

I work for a company making flexible pipe for the offshore oil & gas industry.  We use AL2003 as a supporting layer in the pipes as it has good corrosion resistance (>316L) and with the better mechanical properties it aids collapse of the pipe under hydrostatic pressure almost as well as if the layer were made of 2205.
Experience has also shown that even if there is discolouration on the AL2003 steel the corrosion resistance (from G48 tests) is still far better than that of 316L.  Can't give specifics unfortunately in a public forum however.
We went down this route as a lower cost option for deep water pipes (>1000m water depth) instead of temper rolled grades as those can have limited forming ability.

Regards Riadsala

RE: lean duplex

Ed,

I don’t think it is necessarily fair to say companies don’t have the skills necessary to re-evaluate designs.  This may be true in some cases but not in all, or maybe even the majority. Often companies (OEMs or consulting engineers) receive conflicting information from steel suppliers/manufacturers.  I’ll give an example.  One steel manufacturer’s sales staff was strongly pushing a new lean duplex (2003 and 2101 level, not 2304) to an OEM for an application saying in their literature that the material was suitable for service; I have a copy of the presentation.  When speaking with the steel manufacture’s technical people their comment was “Not the application I’d start with”. I heard this comment after I specifically asked the question. Same company with contrasting points of view.  If the steel manufacturer cannot present a uniform presentation why should the OEM take the risk?

The use of 2304 in kraft pulping (cooking plant) has been used for several years and it isn’t a stretch to understand that it would work given the alloy content.  However, it wasn’t until the last 18-24 months that 2304 was an economic replacement for 2205 in pressurized vessels in kraft cooking liquor applications (digester, white liquor reactor, etc).  

I have yet to see the new 2101 or 2003 make in road in pulp and paper in any significant way.  In applications comparable for 304L, such as atmospheric storage tanks where API 650 or customer min wall values (normally 5-6 mm) are used it isn’t a cost effective substitute. These tanks, which are normally only insulated in the first 2m for personnel protection can be coated with a variety of coatings (under insulation) which provide SCC resistance and are still less expensive that 2101 or 2003. There is no percentage for anyone to make a change. Even in large (6000 m^3 to 10000 m^3) pulp storage tanks, these are usually carbon steel loose lined with 300 series stainless except the top portion and roof which is 300 series stainless. I have not seen duplex used extensively in these applications except for a project in China.

I’m not trying to cast stones, but these are the experiences I have dealt with.  

RE: lean duplex

Thus far LDX 2101 has been used to construct tanks at one Finnish and two US pulp and paper companies for white liquor storage tanks and also for a white water storage tank (not insulated).  It has also been used for an insulated storage tank at a US chemical company for storing an organic chemical intermediate used for plastics production.  In this case the tank was insulated fully and external SCC was a concern for 316L.  The LDX 2101 base price on plate is below 316L so even when additional savings from wall reductions are not possible due to minimum wall thicknesses in API 650 it can still be cost effective versus 316L, but not quite at the 304L price level.

LDX 2101 round bar has also been used for a wetted application in another pulp mill where 316L shafting in a conveyor suffered what they felt was a mechanical/fatigue failure. LDX 2101 significantly raises the mechanical properties vs 316L (94/65 ksi vs 75/30 ksi minimum UTS/yield).

The lean duplexes (2101 and 2003) are relatively new and have only been commercially offered in flat products for about 1-2 years.  Adoption of any new alloy normally takes several years to happen.   

RE: lean duplex

I am currently designing a new process plant for the minerals industry.  I am specifying about about 50 tanks for construction from LDX 2101 (50 - 4,000 m3) and there is probably an equal number of tanks in a second section of the plant.  I am getting conflicting info on the availability of LDX 2101 in piping form.  Does anyone konw anything on this?  
Thanks.

RE: lean duplex

(OP)
Go straight to Outukumpu, who developed the alloy. They are a big tubing producer and have a good website. EdStainless will also probably have some advice. Try Trent Tube, his company.

Michael McGuire
http://stainlesssteelforengineers.blogspot.com/

RE: lean duplex

Thanks Michael, I have logged a request for info with them.  Their website has conflicting information, with dates suggesting they originally planed to (and maybe did) make LDX 2101 pipe, but don't any more.  Our order will be quite substaional, so they may say they can make it for us, which is OK for for now but might make repalcement pipe hard to source later on.

Regards,
Brett

RE: lean duplex

(OP)
I just noticed that Gibson Tube advertises tubing in 2101. They specialize in smaller diameters, but they may give you a lead on larger sizes. You know, any good tubing company that makes duplex tubing can source some material from Outukumpu and make it into tubing for you.

Michael McGuire
http://stainlesssteelforengineers.blogspot.com/

RE: lean duplex

to be honest, right now it looks like you can get LDX2101 pipe and tube, but you will have to wait on mill lead times for the raw material.
I believe that this material will find its way into inventories, eventually.
The real problem could be availability of fittings.

You are right McG, I am not interested in making small diameter welded-to-size tubing.  I would galdly make the tube and pipe sizes that are smaller than what Outokumpu wants to deal with.  We don't make anything larger than a 4.0" OD.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Rust never sleeps
Neither should your protection
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: lean duplex

Back up to an earlier part of the thread, I was formerly into high pressure Hx's and condensers for power plant and industrial applications, and I found a paucity of Utility engineers with Metengr's breadth of knowledge and experience.  You couldn't tell them about the features and benefits of higher pedigree allows because you needed to teach them some metallurgy first.

Metengr, as I have read your comments throughout the years in this forum, I have thought many times 'oh to have had a metengr working at xyz plant or company instead of those guys sitting across the table giving me "owl eyes".

My compliments.  The TEI and/or Yuba technical people sure better appreciate you.

rmw

PS: this is a metallurgical thread, but dittos for heat transfer.

RE: lean duplex

Members like metengr, ed,unclesyd,mcguire can start a fan club for their admirers. We are very fortunate to have them contribute actively. It is a learning phase everyday for me and everyday I know how shallow is my knowlege. There is so much to know and diseminate. Perhaps some colleges should take a lead and give their students assignments based on the responses given by our learned members.

RE: lean duplex

It has been a while since I replied.  Rolled Alloys is stocking 1" to 4" SCH 10 pipe currently.  It is all welded.

RE: lean duplex

Ed is correct.  All pipe is made to the ASTM A-790 specification.

Two major orders.  One for a hot process water piping system in a synthetic rubber plant.  It replaced 304L that was suffering underinsulation cracking in less than 9 months time.  Roughly 500 feet is installed

Another is for reactor internals for a process to make biodegradable plastics.  Used as a cost down to 316L.  40,000 feet involved.  System to be installed in mid 2007.

RE: lean duplex

Does anyone know of any companies that produce LDX2101 and RA2205 pipe and plate?  I'm having a difficult time getting prices.  Thanks

RE: lean duplex

Thanks for the help

RE: lean duplex

What size pipe?  What part of the world?  There are a bunch of us.
And by the way, don't use the letters in front of 2205.  The recognised common name in ASTM for the grade is '2205'.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Rust never sleeps
Neither should your protection
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: lean duplex

Edstainless, I'm looking for pipe from 2" up to 16" diameters.  We're a fabrication company in Tennessee and would like a supplier in North or South America.  Thanks for the info.

RE: lean duplex

LDX2101 is the Outokumpu grade, they will offer both plate and large diameter pipe.  I am not sure where their bottom end cut-off is anymore.  The plate will come in from nothern Europe, or be rolled at their mill in Indiana.  The own a pipe mill in Fl.
(Trent Tube only works up through 4" outside diameter (3 1/2" pipe))

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Rust never sleeps
Neither should your protection
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: lean duplex

LDX 2101 sheet is made by Outokumpu in Sweden, plate for the North American Market is produced in New Castle, Indiana.  To this point welded pipe is being made at the mill in Wildwood, FL. Bar is made at the Richburg, SC mill.

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