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Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
I am a total newbie to electromagnets. I am a Machinist and need a way of cleaning metal chips out of T-slots on machines. I could not find a tool to buy (I did find one listed from Spap-on but it has been droped for some time). So I am trying to build one. I would like to use 2 AA bateries (pen light design) and keep the overall width of the electromagnet under .5" so that it can fit in the T-slots. Length is not an issue and I am not sure what is more important,pull or area for the chips to attract to. Any help to where I could buy the tool,just the electromagnet, or tips on the design would be greatly appreciated. Just keep in mind I am a Machinist...so keep the words simple! Here is a link to all I could find for off the shelf electromagnet in .5". But it is 12V...will it work for me @ 3V?

http://www.newmantools.com/magnets/emr.htm
Myles

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Myles, I dare say you have already considered it, but why not use a permanent magnet "magnetic pen" such as this:
http://www.theysoundgood.co.uk/web%20pages/details.htm
and wipe off the swarf?  
They are certainly available, I bought one recently.

The problem with an electromagnet is that it will retain some magnetism when you switch it off so the swarf will tend to stick to it anyway.  But don't let me put you off though if you are determined to see it through!

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
Yes, I have been using a permanent magnet for 18 years now.  I just have gotten fed up with trying to get sharp metal slivers off the magnet without getting one in my hand. Sometimes we bang off the chips, but it does not work very well. Many times I am conitously cleaning out a slot that I am machining and your hands are wet from coolant for hours. On an enclosed CNC the flooding coolant will wash away the chips, but on a small CNC knee mill that amount of coolant would give the oferator a bath!  But thanks for the obvious solution. I dont want a very strong magnet because it will be hard to pull away from the piece you are maching.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Hello Myles,

Just wanted to pass along one suggestion a machinist gave me once: Wrap the permanent magnet with a plastic bag, inside out.  Use it to pick up the particles and when done, unwrap the bag so as to capture all the particles.

As long as the particles aren't too large, they'll easily come off the magnet and you'll never get your hands dirty.  For sharp particles, I've resorted to thicker bags.  

Regarding the electromagnet idea, you might just want to wrap a large nail with many turns.  Power it up to pull the particles then turn it off while over a garbage can.  Most of the particles will fall off, you can then unwrap the windings and just throw the nail away.

Regarding your question about batteries, I tend to doubt a pair of AA batteries would be sufficient, a higher voltage is generally required to push enough current through the many windings.

Good luck!
Mike

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
I am cycling this operation every 10 seconds for sometimes an hour at a time...so I need somthing easier. I have made one with roughly the same magnetism as my permanent magnet from a 1/4" bolt and #30 magnet wire with about 5 layers and about 1.25 long. I was wondering how I could get a little more power from it. I tried running 4 wires parallel but it didn't seem to work for me. Here is a link to one that runs of 1.5V...I just need a small version.
http://www.sciencefirst.com/vw_prdct_mdl.asp?prdct_mdl_cd=20030

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Hello Myles,

How about a camera battery (or two)?  Some of them are similar in diameter to a AA battery and many of them have higher voltages.  The higher the voltage, the more amps you'll be able to pump through the wires (especially one as thin as #30).

Admittedly, they do cost more but they ought to provide enough power.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
Just my first thought would be they wont last very long and the expense. I can use thicker wire...#30 is just what I tried first.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
Sorry about my last post...I thought you wrote Watch not camera.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

You wound a coil, now try it at a higher voltage.  You can use the shorter bateries and stack 4 or 5.
The total of turns x amps will be your magnet strength.  Exchanging one for the other has no impact.
There are ways to optimize this, but trial and error will get you close.
Are you builing this with the outer shell as the magnetic return path?
I'll try to figure out how to describe the geometry that I am thinking of.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion, every where, all the time.
Manage it or it will manage you.
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
To get more strength can I just go longer,as I have already reached my maximum Diameter? No, I dont have an outer shell return path. To make it fit I would need to put less turns. Would this be better? Also can the return path outer shell be threaded on instead of trying to wrap the wire inside a cavity?

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Hello Myles,

Increasing the length would help, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective as getting more coil turns & amps into the electromagnet.  That's why I'm suggeting higher voltage batteries, to increase the amps.

Given that you need a very small diameter, I think it'll be difficult to have an outer shell return path.  Having a return path would help alot, but not if you lose many windings.  You might have to experiment.  As EdStainless mentioned, trial and error will get you close.

The return path outer shell can be threaded (if you can accommodate one).

The windings will be much more effective inside the cavity.
 

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
Thanx I'll try an outer shell.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

What is the resistance fo your coil?  I want to play a little.

Picture a short spool, solid center post with one end larger diameter than the other.  You wrap your coil around the center.  You may need finer wire.
This fits into a can.  The large end of the spool should be snug.  The gap between the can and the small end of the spool is your air gap.

Let's say the can is 0.500" od x 0.050" wall.
The spool will have a center diameter of 0.150" (same area as the can).  One end will be 0.400" and the other will be 0.300".  The air gap will 0.050".  The gap needs to be filled and sealed.
The can can be as long as you want, the excess height doesn't hurt.  That will be your battery housing.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion, every where, all the time.
Manage it or it will manage you.
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

The original design of #30 copper wire, on a 1/4 inch bolt, 5 layers, and 1.25 inch coil height should operate as follows.
1.75 watts
3 VDC
0.58 amps
5.143 ohms
613 turns total
358 ampturns
This assumes a pretty well done winding. Nice and even, not random wound. Don't think a couple of AA's will be lasting too long this way.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Ed, Myles,
I ran a couple of coil designs. Using some of Ed's assumptions, 0.15"ID, 0.40"OD and 3 watts per square inch of surface. Ed - I think a double wall tubing might be available and stay within your dimensions. That would allow this to be cleaned easier. Like the plastic bag suggestion earlier. 0.050 is a lot thicker than necessary. Of course if Myles' is hitting it to clean it then he will be building magnets pretty regular 0.05 or not.

At 3 watts/ square inch this IS NOT continous duty. I'd say leaving it in the coolant between uses would be a good idea. And VPI potting to keep out moisture.

I used #30 copper wire again.
            2" length        3" length
watts        9.9               14.7
VDC          12                18
ADC          0.83              0.82
Turns        1994              3012
lbs wire     0.042             0.064
Total NI     1645              2459  
OD           0.39              0.39
Maybe I'll get back and calculate some fields after lunch.

Ed - Why the taper on the coil? I didn't in my design calc's.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
Tried a thread on shell last night...scraped the windings putting it on...oops. I used #26 wire. Since it was junk I tried without the shell. It was weaker than my one with #30 wire...then I tried it with only one battery and it was stronger???...But the wires got hot in a hurry.Not what I expected. I'll keep trying.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Field strength is proportional to total of amps x turns.

Working from batteries requires delicate balance between current and battery life.

Sounds like you have a bad battery.

I didn't mean to infer tapering of the coil.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion, every where, all the time.
Manage it or it will manage you.
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Okay I just ran the one with a 3" coil. We get about 630 gauss right on the surface of the 0.05 sleeve on the end on centerline. It drops to about 250 at 1/4 inch. This should pick up something, not much but something. Oh the core only gets up to about 5000 gauss. No where near saturation.

Myles,
If you used #26 wire and the same other dimensions you had much lower resistance. Magnetic field is generated by your ampturns (NI) #26 wire would have given you many fewer turns and lower field strength. Higher current as well. Both results as you observed.

Maybe one of your batteries is shot.

I assumed the shell to be non-magnetic. Perhaps that's not what you all have been thinking.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
I was assuming that the outer shell had to be steel.What should it be? Can the end of the magnet(bolt head)be a press fit or does it have to be made out of the same piece of steel. Also I am finding that surface area is more important than strength. A pemanent magnet at the end of a scriber with little pull almost picks up as much chips as a magnet with about 4 times the pull???

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

My thoughts were in keeping a SS tube around the outside of the pen magnet. This would make it easier to clean and sealed from coolant getting in. However a steel tube without an end or perhaps a SS end cap and a steel pin for a core is substantially stronger than what I described earlier. Although none of these could be described as strong magnetic devices.

Pull is an easy measurement one can make with a magnet however that is not all that is going on. Notice how a magnet with more 'pull' still only picks up chips on it's edges.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

I just modeled the device as stated:

The original design of #30 copper wire, on a 1/4 inch bolt, 5 layers, and 1.25 inch coil height should operate as follows.
1.75 watts
3 VDC
0.58 amps
5.143 ohms
613 turns total
358 ampturns

I added a .001" thick burr .01" away from the pole face so I had something to calculate the attraction on.  I used 1010 cold rolled steel material properties for the bolt and burr.  Without any outer shell, it produced .06 N attraction.  With an outer shell .030" thick and a .125" thick end cap, also 1010 CRS, the attraction on the burr increased to .2 N.  Too bad there is no way to attach files on this site or I could give you a nice flux distribution plot.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Hello dgallup,

Here is a workaround that might be worth considering for uploading that flux distribution plot:
FAQ559-1177

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
There is a picture of a 3D model on this site

http://multiterra.mooload.com/file.php?file=files/1134101668/Assembly2.bmp

You have to click on the little words "click here to download" in the center of the page surrounded by a bunch of advertising. I have a .5" Dia head X .5"long press fit to a 1/4" Bolt(with the head machined off). A plastic nut whitch leaves me with a 1.5" long coil of #30 copper magnet wire. How would you suggest I attach a outer shell and end cap? I never tried but if the site allows me to upload exe files I could upload a model that you can rotate around and look at.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

Here is the link to the flux distribution plot.  My model is not exactly like yours since I did not have time to remake it after seeing your model.  In my model the bolt face is flush with the end of the coil.  In the left hand plot the shell has material properties of air (like it isn't even there) and in the right hand plot it is 1010 CRS.  You can see the radical difference a flux return path makes.  I think you would be better off with a slightly smaller bolt since you are not saturating it.  That will let you add the shell without going over your .5" OD which my shell exceeds (.56 OD).  Also, try to minimize how far the bolt protrudes from the end of the coil and carry the shell down just as far.

http://multiterra.mooload.com/file.php?file=files/1134168973/bolt.jpg

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

(OP)
So if I understand you correctly I can turn down my bolt to about .188" ,cut off the extra threads on the bolt,and slide on some heatshrink and then slide on a steel sleve. Or does the sleve need to be capped at one end?

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

One end needs to be capped and the other end, where you are picking up the chips, uncapped.  You can have a non-magnetic cap on the working end but keep it very thin.  The working flux is going to be between the ends of the core & the shell.  Try to have about the same cross sectional area in each.  

For better battery life you may want to go to finer wire and more turns.  Just a single gage number will make a significant difference because the resistance/length goes up and the length of wire goes up.  The total number of amp-turns will decrease only slightly, mainly because there is less total copper and more insulation in the winding window with the finer wire.  You don't really need any heat shrink (assuming you are using enamelled magnet wire) but it will help keep things in place.  Or you could varnish the wound coil.

RE: Help designing electromagnet pick up tool(pen)

The back end needs to have a magnetic cap/plug that connects the center pin with the shell.  At the pickup end you should have an air gap between the center pin and the shell.  The air gap is where the field strength will be the highest.
I would wind with very fine wire and keep the coil as close to the center pin as possible.  Coat the windings with resin (urethane or epoxy) and shove it all together.  Make sure that the air gap at the working face is sealed.
You could put a thin piece of Al or brass on this face to protect it, but keep it very thin.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion, every where, all the time.
Manage it or it will manage you.
http://www.trent-tube.com/contact/Tech_Assist.cfm

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