I really doubt it's "Engineering" history, but this is what I've heard.  Take it for what it's worth.

The British drive on the left and sit on the right because that's the way they did it in horse-drawn wagons.  The reason they drove on the left and sat on the right in horse-drawn wagons was because most people are right-handed, and this allowed the driver's "sword hand" (and later, pistol hand) free to fend off attackers.  This likely started when ye olde English knights did battle on horseback, they probably passed on the left for the same reason.

I've also noted from watching American Westerns that most people sit on the right when driving a wagon.  In this case, it seems to be because the brake was located outside the wagon frame and was operated with the arm or leg.  Again, you'd want to use your strong side.

This brings to mind the question of why fixed-wing pilots sit on the left, but helicopter pilots sit on the right.  Nobody I've asked, even helicopter pilots themselves, seems to know.  Where do these guys sit in Britain?

Oh by the way, they drive on the left and sit on the right in Australia because they used to be British!

However, you may recall that in jousting, they pass on the right, since the shield arm is the left arm and the lance is carried by the right hand, but points to the left.

TTFN

I believe that this was discussed in an earlier thread.   napoleon was involved ( in the history, not in the thread !)

So lets recap...

I need my right hand to be able to either:-

a. Stab someone
b. Shoot them
c. use a hand brake (by using my right arm which is generally the strongest)
d. napoleon learned to drive in a left hand drive car.

(just jesting.....or should that be jousting)

By this thinking then, the whole World should be driving on the left and having a steering wheel on the right.

If its natural to sit on the right of the stage coach, then surely it would be logical to progress to sitting in a car in the same position.

I would guess that the whole thing came about by accident than by design??

Anyone else got any clues....

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

This guy place has lots of clues
http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/driving%20on%20the%20left.htm

Japan also is a left-side-drive nation.

Perhaps it is an imperialist mindset thing?

Oh, Napoleon wasn't an imperialist?

Cheers

Greg Locock

It's an island thing.  On islands, people drive on the left, on continents they drive on the right.

Oh that's easy then, it must be the Coriolis effect.

Perhaps it has to do with the original human invasion route taken?

Let's see, North America via Alaska, down the west coast, so that's driving on the right.

Genhkis Khan etc invaded Europe from the North East, so again they were driving on the right.

The Uk was probably settled via land bridge from France, and they'd have been inclined to go westawrds to stay with the good weather, so that's driving on the left.

In Australia they'd have landed somewhere near the middle of the top, and spread out in all the equally inhospitable directions, so they'd drive any old side of the road.

Well, it works in 4 out of 4 cases, so it must be right!

Cheers

Greg Locock

Good theory, Greg.  Now all taht's left is to use the theory to predict future behavior, and you're up for the Nobel!

I read somewhere that tornados might be triggered in the US by the turbulence caused by vehicles passing each other "port to port" and the coriolus rotation around a low pressure is anticlockwise.

So why don't we get tornados down under where we pass "starboard to starboard" and the coriolus rotation is clockwise?

Jeff

"Perhaps it is an imperialist mindset thing?"

When is the US changing? Someone should ask Bush...

----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

Now I'm confused.
This has left me with more questions than answers...


The Japenese who were assisted in their economic recovery by the Americans drive on the left.???

And what exactly is the coriolis effect?

With regards to Tornados..surely if the Northern Hemisphere drives on the left and the Southern drives on the right, then they would cancel out and there would be no more Tornados.

Or is the effect more localised, i.e. do we need to drive on the left on alternate days?

What sort of car did Genghis Khan drive?

All countries must be islandsof one form or another no matter how big (or small). Have you ever tried to walk from America to England.

The thread goes on.......

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

And what exactly is the coriolis effect?

It's why your toliet swirls one way in the Northern Hemisphere, and why it swirls the opposite way in the Southern Hemisphere.

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/coriolis_effect.html

TTFN

merci beaucoup

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

btw... the toilet swirl is supposedly an urban myth:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_161.html

TTFN

There were more countries with left-hand driving in the Europe; Sweden changed - I believe - sometimes in fifties.
And for at least one country I know how easy and fast it was to switch from left to right: When Germany occupied and divided Czechoslovakia in 1939 (as a result of the treaty from Munich, where Mr. Chamberlain and Daladier saved the peace for the generations letting Hitler do it), the Germans had problems with the left-driving in Czechoslovakia. They were "right drivers". Therefore they announced a day when everybody will drive (even walk on the walkways) on the right. They put their soldiers to enforce it, after a week the soldiers left and since then everybody drove on the right side. Simple and effective solution...

Its funny you should mention the coriolis effect. That explains why my wife keeps swerving across the road. (although it seems to be random rather than always to the left??)..

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

just a thought...

Ever notice how the U.S. also adopted different habits regarding which hand holds a knife at the table?  In Europe, it is customary to have fork in the left, knife in the right, and keep them there.  In the U.S., one was supposed to switch the fork from left for cutting to right for eating and set the knife down.  Maybe it's related???

I remember reading that  Napoleon changed everyone from right to left when he came to power. To make a point that from then on things were going to change in the government.
 We could do with some of that these days someone to cut the knot. History has aways three phases all civilizations
go through it.
Dictatorship ,democracy and chaos.Then dictatorship again Napoleone came to power after the chaos in France. Hitler after the chaos in Germany.I wonder at what stage we are at.

very funny Prepact

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

Gearguru
Sweden changed 3 sept 1967 from left to right. Can still remember biking on the left side!

Most of the cars had the steeringwheel on the left side so the changeover was quite easy. The reason for driving on the left side It was one of the kings (early 1700) simply decided that. He only had two options and picked one. I guess this is the background in most countries worldwide and that laws were a lot easier to issue in those days than now.

Have we ever tried to objectively identify the real pros and cons of left hand vs right hand driving? (and I don't mean fundamentalist theories about where we used to carry our sword 500 years ago). After having driven 600 miles on the left side, I can think of two cons:

- In many cars where the steer is on the right side, there's no room to put your left foot beside the clutch. I had to put it more or less under the clutch which is pretty uncomfortable.

- Shifting gears from/to 2-3 and 4-5 vice-versa goes less easily, not only because I'm not a lefty like most people, but also because when sitting on the right side the axis of the movement is ~90 degrees vs the axis of your arm.

Who else?

Its what you are used to.

I drive on the left in a right hand steer car. The car has a foot rest for my clutch foot and I don't therefore need to put it under the pedal.

I am right handed (like most of us I think) and I have no problem in using my left hand to operate the gear stick.

I do think though its about time the Europeans (me included) started demanding more automatics. The Americans don't seem to have these (well at least not in the films I see)

Are there any Americans out there who can tell me if they use manual shift???

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

I do. And I help to design them, too.

Hi Gearguru

As a %, how many cars are manual in the USA. In the UK I would guess 90-95% are manual and the rest are automatic

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

Friar tuck,
I can't help it, I like switching gears! I just don't agree with the automatic on when to switch gears, just like I don't agree with the automatic lights and wipers on when to switch on and off. I guess I must be a control freak when I'm driving.

Friartuck,

It is likely the opposite distribution here in the states.  90% are likely to be automatics especially with models from the "big 3".  Manuals or semi-automatics do seem to be re-appearing on some of the sportier models but for many years, manual transmissions were deemed to have a negative affect on "resale" value.  Personally, I am not sure the quality of the average US driver could be up to using a manual box.  After all we can't be bothered with shifting as we are drinking and talking on our cell phones.  Some days I wonder how I arrive at work still intact .

Regards,

Its funny you should say that. There are lots of stories (i'm not sure how true they are), but we hear of holiday makers visiting the UK and hiring a car....and guess what....they forget to ask for automatic and get manual. It is said that a lady tourist once blew up an engine after trying to drive it for many miles using only first gear.(Ouch)...actually that sounds like my wife (tee hee). Its a good job she doesn't read this stuff.

Incidently, we have come full circle now. Before, we mounted horses on the left and our scabbords dangled by our sides. We kept to the left in order to enable us to use our right hand for stabbing and thrusting with our swords.

Now in the UK, we sit in the car on the right hand side making the stabbing action more difficult. Yet in the USA, you sit on the left, leaving your right hand free (Yep, you've guessed it)..  now you can use YOUR right hand more easily to stab your passengers. (perhaps it was carefully planned all along)

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

random thoughts:

>  Most people are right-handed, so riding on horse-back, you'd want your shield against the closer side of the woods, which means you ride on the left

>  When you meet a fellow traveler, showing that your weapon hand is empty is easier if you are on the left.

>  Likewise, if you get the urge to shake someone's hand on the road, it'll be easier if you're on the left.

TTFN

Mechanically-minded people shouldn't forget pedestrians. A risky situation may occur to an American pedestrian in Australia stepping off the curb when attempting to cross a two-way street or road: where should she/he look first and again, to her/his right- or left-hand side ?

As someone who spends a reasonable amount of time in either handed countries, the answer is you always look both ways.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Does that mean you look like Ben Turpin (you have to watch a lot of Laurel and Hardy to understand that one)

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

<.   > <    .>
       \
        \
        _)
 
     ------


Is that right?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Hey, don't abandon this thread without telling me why helicopter pilots sit on the right!

My only thought on this is that the collective was a difficult component to design, so it was run straight out from the rotor, placing it along the centerline.  Since 90% of the world is right handed, the more deft flight controls were handled by the stick, forcing the pilot to sit on the right.

And, as the posts above point out, he can more easily slash his sword around outside the cockpit!

That's only applicable to side-by-side seating.  

Both AH-1 and AH-64 are tandem seating and they had no trouble getting the collective to the left side of the cockpit.

TTFN

Friartuck,
I only today saw your question. I do not know exact percentage, but 90% automatic is probably close. There are some sport versions of "regular cars" (good example would be the "SRT" Chrysler vehicles) usually with turbocharged engines, the drivers are mostly young men. (I am the exception )    

One other major disadvantage of driving on the left: each time you put the trashcan outside, you have to put it on the opposite side of the street!!

IRstuff,

Agreed.  However both of those aircraft were developed many moons after that sort of technical difficultly had been worked out.  I was thinking more of Igor himself trying to get a working prototype.

re: garbage cans, and mail boxes.  

That's not really a problem.  In fact, have you noticed that the Jeep-like mail delivery vehicles are driven steering wheels opposite to the other cars.

TTFN

Trashcans? Other side of the street?

Now youv'e lost me.

Whats that got to do with left hand drive??

(sorry for being thick)

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

joking......

friartuck ... In North America we have to transport our trash cans (garbage bins) down to the curb for pick-up. In some areas they have to be left on one side of the street only, so that the Garbage Truck only has to make one pass without the driver crossing the street.
Not sure how it's done in the UK now ... do the garbage men still come onto the property to do the pickup & then return it?

You sure have some lazy bin men.

We make 'em fetch the damn things.

However, our bin men (in Nottingham anyway) are peculiar in other ways. They won't take a bin with the lid slightly open (in case there are needles sticking out (yes, youv'e guessed it, sadly enough there are druggies here too..)

Also, due to our recycling policies, we have to sort the rubbish out into paper, glass (clear, brown, green etc), garden waste, plastic etc.

It takes ages to do and collections are every 2 weeks.

I really don't know why we pay so much local tax, we certainly don't get very good value for money.

Sorry for moaning, but at least we don't have to cross the street...

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

friartuck,

I wish I had seen this thread earlier.  The answer to the whole thing is simple:

We drive on the right side of the road because you drive on the wrong side.

Haggis

Haggis

But we sit in the car on the Right side, and you sit on the WRONG side.

Perhaps the answer is to sit in the middle???

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

Only if Maclarens become somewhat cheaper.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

To throw a wrench in the works;
Why did the British use positive ground (earth) for their automobile electrical systems, and some large trucks still used positive ground up through the mid 70's, while most of the world used negative ground.  In the US, some early 6 volt systems used positive ground, while other manufacturers used a negative ground.  I remember more than once touching bumpers of cars with their bumpers while connecting jumper cables when starting them, plenty of sparks.

As for the trash bin collections, thank the Unions.  I recently saw three "sanitation engineers" lift a trash bin to see how heavy it was, then refuse to take it because it was too heavy.  Something about a 40 lb. rule.
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

Our bin men don't lift bins any more. We use wheelie bins.
However they refuse to collect the bin if the lid is not firmly closed....

PS we have 4 bins. One for main waste, one for recycling, one for garden rubbish and a fourth because they only collect fortnightly , so the bin gets full. Plus we also have plastic bags to use for the paper recyling rubbish.

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

In our assembly plant we now have a 15lb limit for repetitive lifting. The demonstrable improvement in back injury rates may even pay for the hassle.

Positive earth - beats me.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

We recently had the case of a postman who successfully sued the post office because the amount of post in a post box weighed too much and he hurt himself when he emptied it.
What happened to training?
What happened to brains?
Why try to take it all in one trip?
The increasingly litigeous UK with its imitation of US legal practices seems to have a negative effect.
Incidentally, we also had the case where the postman refused to empty one post box because someone had put their entire club/society members mail-out in it.
Twilight zone?
Now imagine trying to get these bozos to change from driving on the left to driving on the right...

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

On my one trip to London, things got so confusing with all the single-lane and one-way streets and cars driving on the left, that I was very grateful for the lettering embedded in every crossing, either "Look Right" or "Look Left".

It is a good thing that the definitions of "right" and "left" are universal.  Or are they?  What exactly are "right" and "left", anyway?

For the majority of people, the right hand is the right one to use, and it is almost universal (English, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese) that "rights", as in "the rights of Englishmen", use the same word as for the right hand.

Latin dexter means right hand, but rectus is right as in straight.  Even "straight" contains the word "right".  A square is a right-angled figure, and some one who tries to live RIGHTeously is often called a square, or straight, or strict, which latter term is also related.  A strike or a strake is a straight mark, like a stripe.  By His stripes we are healed justified and made RIGHTeous.  A ruler is a straightedge, and a ruler administers rights or justice, and a justified line is a straight line.  I could go on, but it is enough to see that the idea of rightness is ingrained in the human consciousness.

As for driving, who is to say which is left and which is right.  I prefer to drive on my own right, but it is a matter of habit by now.  By the way, isn't (or wasn't) South Africa a Commonwealth nation, and don't they drive on the left?  What does that do to the island theory?

Regards,
William

When I moved to the States I found the hardest thing about driving to get used to was the rearview mirror not being where hundreds of hours of preconditioning driving said it should be...I kept taking furtive glances at the door post.

I believe the helicopter pilot positioning is due to the fact that with the U.S. rotational direction (being predominant in the early days certainly), the right hand skid/wheel hangs a little lower in the hover BUT I stand/sit/kneel to be corrected on that one :)

It is an English stubbornness.

I thought helicopter pilot positioning had to do with the placement of the collective.  If the pilot sits on the right, then you can get by with one collective contol, and irritate the co-pilot only on rare occasions. If the pilot sits on the left, you either need two collective controls, or the majority of pilots need to learn fine motor control with the left hand, which for some of us would be nigh on impossible.

Dissatisfied with responses here, I posted this query in the Rotorcraft engineering Forum  The best explanation is in line with Boathouse - it was a visibility issue, but the motor-skills issue certainly didn't hurt.

As far as duck0601's point, this may have been true in the very early days of helicopters, but dual control complexities have long since been worked out.  I believe all "modern" helicopters have complete and separate controls for each seat.  This would allow the pilot to sit in either seat, however the visibility (and plain ol' habit) issue would remain.

The last helicopter I worked on was the venerable H-3.  I suppose the helicopter pilot now sits on the right for the same reason we in North America drive (or, are supposed to drive) on the right side of the road and the Brits (Blokes?, UKers?) drive on the left.  Tradition.