Working with Architects 2

[GoldDredger]

I was recently involved with a project where we (site engineers) were co-consultants with the architects to the developer. Unfortunately, we suffered from considerable scope creep due to this arrangement. This project was a 40 acre mall complex, with numerous buildings and about 3 separate architects.

One large problem was the constant modification of building footprints, which seemed to change on a regular basis. (One building may have changed 10 times). Each time we had to re-insert the footprint, modify the drawings, and issue a new addendum.

Another problem was that the MEP design lagged behind the site civil approval. During the civil design and approvals, we could only provide a ‘best guess’ of sewer, domestic and fire connections into the buildings. These ended up changing, both in size, invert and location, which in turn required modifications to the utility drawings.

In some cases, the changes seemed to have a cascading affect. For example moving an architectural column would place it too close to a curb inlet, or handicap ramp, which would require other changes to the civil drawings. Or moving a door required moving a dumpster, which in turn affected the curb and elevations down the way. My favorite was adding a new recessed loading dock, requiring a storm drain line to be designed where non was previously proposed.

The developer (who were every bit as ‘slippery’ as one might expect), would constantly fight us for every extra dime we might seek for these changes or coordination. Although we were entitled to seek these extras, doing so unfortunately seemed to generate animosity. (They are no longer our clients, and as rumor has it, have used up half the engineers in town)

Anyway, for brevities sake I haven’t included all the details. For example I was hired and began project managing this well after the poorly defined contract was established. The contractors made numerous mistakes. There was just a litany of problems.

My question though, is have any of you encountered this architect-engineer coordination problem? How have you handled or anticipated this in your original contract?

Also, as I have learned, whenever there is a problem, even if it is not your fault, will cost you time and effort to prove it’s not your fault, or at least in helping to find a resolution. I (will)try to preempt problems by identifying them early with architects.

Do any of you have a checklist you use at the beginning of a project for the architect? (In fairness to architects, many changes may be developer or tenant driven, and not entirely within their control)

 

[cvg]

one way to limit this type of situation is to list in your proposal the number of submittals, revisions etc. Pick a fair number and then once you hit that you can put the architect on notice that you have completed your task. Additional work is not to be done without a signed contract amendment (change order). Also, when you suspect that you will go over budget, let the architect know that you will go over if any more changes are made and that you plan to ask for a change order.

Your other problem is that apparently it seems you were not working for the architect on this project, therefore the architect was unsympathetic to the fact that you were over budget. Better arrangement is to be a sub to the architect.

 

[msquared48]

Sounds like this may have been a design-build project. OOH I hate those for exactly the experience here.

cvg: One problem with a contract thru the Architect here is... Which Architect - GoldDredger mentions "about 3 separate Architects", and that in itself is a problem.

What was the chain of command here below the developer? Was that ever established? Without a chain of command you get the situation that too many chefs spoil the soup. There should have been only one project coordinator below the developer.

As previously alluded to, this should have been set up in the contract.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[bimr]

What you are describing are project management issues where communications are required by all disciplines for coordination and scheduling.

It sounds like you have a weak project management organization, little staffing at the developer, and everyone of the subconsultants is submitting whenever it is convenient for them, not for the project.

Since these are all issues of the developer, it is not likely that you are going to be able to fix them yourself. Protect yourself with a specific scope of services including a firm project schedule for items such as deliverables and permitting.

Once you have met the schedule by submitting a set of sealed drawings, it will be difficult for the project manager to argue that the scope has not changed and a change order is required.

 

[msucog]

i'm not a designer but am typically the geotechnical engineer and materials testing engineer. i run across this occasionally where the architect wants something extra/different and the owner might have issue with having to pay for it. my SOP is:
1. be reasonably specific in the proposal about what my work scope is (also, note bigger items that are specifically excluded from my work scope).
2. get something in writing from the architect stating what they want (or generate a letter documenting my phone conversations).
3. contact the owner/developer/person with checkbook and ask how they'd like us to proceed prior to performing the work.
from my experience of going through being hassled about work scope versus getting paid, i've personally found that these three steps tend to work themselves out most of the time. our company policy actually requires a change order now, so i've got to go through an extra process just to take care of the legal aspects of what you're talking about. by simply getting something on paper on the front end, it makes getting paid so much easier. and it's always good to include note "work performed per the unit rate schedule" or something along those lines so that the owner doesn't "interpret" that it's included in the original fee estimate.
i think most of this is echoed in to the other responses but thought i'd pass along my experience since this gives me more heartburn than most things simply because i'm there trying to help someone that ends up trying to screw me over.
good luck.