Who pays? 3

[SteelPE]

I had a contractor misplace some anchor bolts in the field. Nobody knew about the missing anchors until steel erection began when we received a frantic phone call from the fabricator asking us to solve the problem. The misplaced bolts completed attachment of a concentric brace to the foundation system so they were pretty significant. It took quite a while to come up with a suitable repair that didn't involve a jackhammer. We solved the problem, went to the site and found the steel erector used a giant hammer to knock a bunch of concrete out of the way and then needed to adjust the detail to accommodate damage done by said hammer.

Now the question, who is responsible for the engineering time spent on coming up with the detail? The GC is willing to pay for the new steel and erection time required but refuses to pay for the engineering time because of "professional courtesy" citing he has never charged a client for an engineering mistake before in the past.

 

[msquared48]

That may be his policy but it is not yours. And I guarantee you that it was not in writing in any contract.

Send a letter to your client stating that you will not perform any further services until the bill is paid, citing the reasons for the extra charges. And stick to your guns.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[SteelPE]

Well, my contracts have a stipulation that says that I am not responsible for field engineering/repairs and at the end it says that any work beyond the scope will be billed at $xxx.xx per hour. I was nice to the parties involved. In all it took 10.5 hours to come up with the repair and I only charged him for 7.... and I didn't include the field visit because I needed to do one anyway. Kind of insulting that they are willing to pay the field guys to do the repair.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Agreed.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

 

[TLHS]

Regardless of the rest, I very much doubt he's never charged for an engineering mistake before. If it turned out you needed to change a detail and it took an extra couple dozen hours of labour and a bunch of materials to fix it would be silly not to require an additional fee on his contract.

 

[SteelPE]

TLHS, this job happened to have a massive screw up from the architect..... took an additional 48 hours of engineering over two months to correct their error. The error involved a bunch of additional work to be performed by the contractor that he correctly charged the owner for. I would have been shocked otherwise, so I don't know where he gets this professional courtesy information from.... must have forgotten about that clause when dealing with the architect's mistake.

 

[msquared48]

So then the owner refuses to pay for your extra time here?

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[Archie264]

Courtesy [charity] is something that is given voluntarily. To perform “good” works using others’ resources - taken from them involuntarily - is not courtesy [charity]; it is theft.

The contractor [and possibly 99% of world leaders throughout history] need[ed] to understand that concept.

That said, choose your battles…

 

[dhengr]

SteelPE:
Well... There ya go..., no good deed ever goes unpunished. Since when is the contractor misplacing and/or not installing a bunch of A.B.s an engineering mistake which shouldn’t be paid for when you dropped everything to help get their whatcha-callit out of the wringer. Maybe the lesson is that you do nothing until you have a letter in hand about who’s going to pay for your extra work. They can hand deliver the letter to speed things up. And, you’ve likely heard the one; Why don’t sharks usually bite attorneys who are swimming with engineers? Professional courtesy. That same courtesy isn’t applied to engineers by the sharks, attorneys or contractors.

 

[CELinOttawa]

What Mike said; anything less and you're picking my pocket too as you're eroding the value of our profession's labour.

Either bill them or never have the legitimate right to complain that anyone else is paid more than you, full stop.

 

[CELinOttawa]

P.S. Legally, the Owner pays. The Owner always pays. The proper "leagaleese" is that your labour enriched the Owner, and as such the Owner is due to pay you. What the Owner then does in terms of recouping for their loss is their business decision, and not your problem.

Nor do you have to have any privity of contract in a Common Law jurisdiction to go after the Owner directly. Do not lie down here; Get the fair compensation for fair labour. Most jurisdictions further allow you to lien, and to recoup the cost of the lien and all administration/legal/etc fees. Owner can pay now, or they can pay for what would have otherwise been downtime.

As Engineers we tend to be much too focused on the technical, and we always suffer. YOU NEED TO BE PAID FOR THAT WORK.

 

[Ron]

Mikey's right....again.

 

[jgailla]

Not to pile on, but I would not reduce my hours either. You are performing a valuable service.
The contractor is likely complaining because it works to knock engineers down. It also works with subcontractors.
You just gave him a 50% discount that will go in his pocket that he won't even notice or remember.
If you have a relationship with a contractor that will work with you, do it for free. Otherwise, charge the full amount.

 

[OHIOMatt]

In the past, before doing the work, I have given the contractor (3) options:
1. Remove and replace per drawings and specifications (expensive and time consuming)
2. Pay for the design of corrective details (usually much less expensive and time consuming)
3. Invent a time machine, go back in time and do it right the first time. (Unknown cost, but now time lost)

The point is, at 10.5 hours at say %150.00 an hour is $1575.00. I am guessing this is a multi-million dollar project, your costs are likely insignificant.

 

[CELinOttawa]

I have been very tempted to create a short form contract for this very purpose. Build it right, or pay for the fix.

 

[BUGGAR]

Watch out Engineers. If you take it upon yourself to solve construction problems not of your making and not covered in your contract, you may "Buy the Farm".

Bob

 

[SteelPE]

Buy the farm? I have to buy the farm, I'm the EOR. I need to sign off on the building once it is complete. If the completed building contains the repair do I not buy the farm then?

 

[CELinOttawa]

Regardless as EOR you're going to be responsible. But the Owner still has to pay the bill.

 

[jike]

I would think that if it was a mistake by the Contractor, then he should pay the engineering bill for the "fix". Why should the Owner pay? He has already paid for the original engineering.

 

[jayrod12]

jike,

Oh I've had that happen lots, the contractor pays my bill with a cheque from his company. He then turns around and finds a way to add it into his bills to the owner. Trust us when we say, the owner always pays the bill in the end.