Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go? 9

[Sparkette]

Though I am not myself a civil engineer I work with civil engineers. I was talking to one this morning who is driving between two offices an hour apart to work on three projects! I know there are those among you who have worked on more than that at one time so please don't regale me with your own tales of tribulation. I see how hard it is on this guy.

According to this civil engineer there is a distinct shortage of civil engineers. My question is, where are the civil engineers? Why aren't college students electing CivE as a profession?

 

[bimr]

Shortages are a fact of life. The puzzle is somewhere else: Why don't companies raise salaries when supply is short and demand is up? Leaving aside oxygen and a few other essentials, there is no such thing as an absolute shortage of anything in a free market: There is only a shortage if the price is too low.

In the movie there was the famous line "Show me the money". Well, show me the money and I will find you the civil engineers.

It is called Economics 101, but most engineers do not seem to be too familiar with the concept.

http://www.math.rochester.edu/people/faculty/rarm/shortage.html

 

[Ussuri]

I was (OK, I still am) a civil engineer, but I no longer work in mainstream civil engineering. I basically fancied a change so I switched to oil and gas. I might go back to civil engineering at a later date but I'll wait and see.

A lot of the people I used to work with have also changed industries, and though I hate to admit it, money had a lot to do with it. In my neck of the woods most civil engineers figured out that 'typical' civil engineering just doesn't pay as well as some of the counterparts.

The Institution of Civil Engineers reckon there is a massive skills shortage in the UK. Civil engineering doesnt really sell itself very well, especially when compared to law, medicine and accountancy. For that reason there are not many new students starting civil engineering at university. There are quite a few universities in the UK that have closed their civil engineering departments.

 

[JedClampett]

In my opinion, there's been a dropoff in Civil Engineering enrollment since the 70's. It's just not very glamorous. Think of all the television shows with CE's as the hero. You're basically working with very low tech materials like dirt and asphalt. Technically oriented students are steered into computer (electrical) disciplines.

 

[JedClampett]

Oh yeah and money, too. Starting Civil Engineer's salaries are traditionally the lowest of all disciplines.

 

[ccor]

I believe the source of the problem is the shortage of good civil engineers. The reason project fees, and hence salaries, haven't increased significantly is there is always a bad engineer low balling a project to keep their doors open. There always seems to be a client willing to take that low price, and end up with a nightmare project on their hands, which reflects poorly on the entire profession.

There simply is no way to weed out bad consultants. Civil engineering programs have to accept student's they otherwise wouldn't to keep the school financially viable. The FE/PP exams and licensure don't seem to be working. How many licenses are revoked in your state each year? E&O insurers will insure anyone for the right price, and plenty of consultants go bare. The tort law system has burned as many good engineers as bad ones that get off with nothing. Much of the industry works for private developers who are mostly only concerned with the up-front costs, and figure they can make a claim on the consultant’s insurance if things go badly. I'll stop there, but there is much that needs fixing. For those of you with access to ASCE Journals, check out “How can We Encourage High Quality Engineering?” a commentary by Justin Sweet in the January 2005 Journal of Professional Issues in Engineering Education and Practice.

 

[francesca]

When I worked in London (UK) as a young civil engineer, the receptionist made 20% more than I did. Working in a small US town, earning below market rates, I was still earning more than I did in the UK.

 

[kchayfie]

In terms of bimr's comments regarding economics 101...

My company, and my principal client, (and seemingly the whole UK water industry in general)are short of engineers of all disciplines. Recruitment companies aren't bothering to send any candidates our way because we aren't offering competitive salaries. The hiring managers justification for the low offers: "We can't afford to raise everyone's salary to competitive rates and its not fair to offer the new guy significantly more than the guy already in-post".

Whilst it seems like an admirable sentiment, it leaves the guy in post doing the job of 2 people for below-average wages. No wonder everyone's moving jobs at the moment.

 

[francesca]

Everyone's been moving jobs in the UK for years, certainly since 2001 when I entered the London market.

When I was in my "predicament" my "less noble" company was hiring less qualified engineers for more money and my options were (1) get an offer from someone else and get my company to counter it, and (2) go somewhere else. Since (1) didn't sit well with my moral code, I waited for (2) and got a great job at the DfT. At least the government pays competitive salaries!

Eventually, either the Tories will beat Labour and the work will dry up and the engineer shortage will come to an end, or the industry will eventually drag the pay scale up one employee at a time. Heck, one day maybe the graduate engineer will make as much as the receptionist with only a GCSE.

 

[stanier]

It is not only civil engineers. Mechanical engineers are also in short supply.

Money is the key. Forget job satisfaction and all that rot. The money isnt there.

A large steel making facility in Austrlia is losing engineers from thier maintenance division as they can earn more (70%) by being a production operator. Paid overtime, no stress or worries, job security etc etc. They dont have to worry about begging for books, software, computers, standards to do their job. If the product is faulty , blame the machine NOT get blamed for some engineering oversight because you are overworked.

The managers need to wake up to themselves.

 

[civilperson]

There is no shortage of civil engineers! There is a shortage of civil engineers willing to work for low wages. Any opening paying a six figure salary will have a plentitude of applicants, many over qualified for the technical challenges in that opening.

 

[LHA]

I guess I'm the odd-ball; I like what I do (site/civil design), AND I feel I make a fair amount.

francesca (Civil/Environme): Wow! I can't imagine my secretary making more than me...remind me not move to England.

I agree with stanier (Mechanical), I find a severe shortage of anyone in any position who can think innovatively and spontaneously, then work creatively and efficiently to solve a problem in a novel way...call that person a civil eng., mech. eng., or just a good technician.

Now, to the OP: Why? It certainly IS the case; here in PA, USA, you can't hire and retain a decent site/civil of any level to save your life. I think it is complacency. A good engineer - in any discipline - will make a nice living, eventually. But it is easier and looks better to just take an OK job, with a relatively high entry-level wage, like drafting. So most do, then in their mid-40's, become disgruntled that "life has passed them by", when in fact it is they who have passed life by. Doesn't help us find more civil's, though.

Remember, amateurs built the ark...professionals built the Titanic. -Steve

 

[stanier]

Mechanical engineers design weapons, civil engineers design targets!

 

[BigH]

New engineers, we acknowledge, follow the money - like a good murder investigation. I know, for example, at the Indian Institute of Technology (Kharagpur) which is one of the finest engineering schools in India - almost all their civil class of a few years back went into software engineering upon graduation. Money - money - money.
Sad, but true.

 

[MRM]

Iha mentioned drafting as a decent entry level wage. I've never been able to figure this out, but I see our relatively new drafters (perhaps 3 to 5 years of experience) billing out at about the same as an EIT, and only about $5 to $7 less than a PE with 6 to 8 years of experience.

 

[MRM]

Here's another fun observation:

When you go into a dentist's office, there may be 5 to 10 dental hygienists assisting a single doctor. Same thing when you visit an attorney; 5 to 10 paralegals supporting 1 lawyer.

When you have a look at a typical civil engineering firm, you've got 18 "Senior Project Managers," 4 civil engineering techs, and 2 draftsmen.

Now it's rather clear that many engineers are able to basically make-up their own job title, but it also seems to me that there might be a bit of an oversupply in civil engineers. With the general decline in required engineering program credit hours dropping for a BS degree, it would appear that it's getting too easy to get a civil engineering degree. The low pay for civil engineers is probably a result of the oversupply and a general ambiguity with the profession about what a "real" engineer is and isn't (there are plenty of threads about that).

 

[DaveVikingPE]

"When you have a look at a typical civil engineering firm, you've got 18 "Senior Project Managers," 4 civil engineering techs, and 2 draftsmen."

Don't you wonder who actually does the work, since most of the folks are responsible for "business development"?

"With the general decline in required engineering program credit hours dropping for a BS degree, it would appear that it's getting too easy to get a civil engineering degree. The low pay for civil engineers is probably a result of the oversupply and a general ambiguity with the profession about what a "real" engineer is and isn't..."

I don't necessarily agree. You still need the adequate experience to sit for the P.E., even if you skate on the experience, actually being able to pass the test is no mean feat.

The money in engineering isn't in the actual engineering work, it's in bringing in the work.

 

[LHA]

MRM (Geotechnical: "When you have a look at a typical civil engineering firm, you've got 18 "Senior Project Managers," 4 civil engineering techs, and 2 draftsmen."

DaveVikingPE (Structural)"Don't you wonder who actually does the work, since most of the folks are responsible for "business development"?"

LOL...you both sound like you work for my firm; repeatedly in the top 40% of ENRs 500, over 300 employees around the globe, costs about $2,000 worth of meetings to fill out a General Permit application; no $$ for training ever available, but $x00,000 for BD/year; no entry-level job offerings currently on our webpage, BTW.

MRM (Geotechnical: "...drafters (perhaps 3 to 5 years of experience) billing out at about the same as an EIT..."

I would take a 3-5 yr CADD Drafter, for both capabilities and knowledge, over a new EIT...so that bill ratio is about correct.

DaveVikingPE (Structural)"The money in engineering isn't in the actual engineering work, it's in bringing in the work."

True of any venture, not just engineering, no arguements with that.

Remember, amateurs built the ark...professionals built the Titanic. -Steve

 

[Zambo]

Iha (Steve) I have to point out that your ship comparison isn't entirely correct. The ark is a fictional ship whereas the Titanic was a real, but flawed, vessel. I would say that ancient ocean going ship designers were indeed professionals.

 

[MRM]

Daveviking: If I understand you correctly, I think you helped me with my point. If there are registered PE's, as well as non-PE's all able to "practice engineering," providing services to the public without major consequence, the civil engineer pool will tend to get too large, which would probably decrease salaries.