What to do about unethical former employer 6

[Grubbyky]

I entered full time employment in May 2006(still finishing BS Civil/Env. w/ two distance learning courses). I went to work for a land surveyor that owns an engineering firm, and came to find out that he was making other employees fill out new time sheets with hours charged to projects that weren't being worked on, and then shred the old, correct time sheet.

I have since moved from the area and have found work at a ready-mix plant w/ the main duty of being project manager for constructing a new ready-mix plant.

My question is if there is anything I can do about my former employer; he sits on the board for the Pro. land surveyors, and the evidence of his actions is routinely destroyed. I know he has done this for a long time, since while I was looking for other employment I spoke with someone who had worked for this same person about a decade earlier and witnessed the same thing.

I think something should be done, but I don't have evidence to prove his actions.

 

[francesca]

I have been filling out ficticious timesheets for most of my career. There are dozens of different ways to bill projects, and it's rare that what goes on the timesheet goes to the client. Some projects are bid with a lot of gravy, while others are marginal. A lot of timesheet massaging is to redistribute hours so that one project doesn't look incredibly profitable while another ends with a loss. I don't think it's any more dishonest than to put down half an hour on your timesheet when you fielded a five minute phone call on another project and spent 10 minutes checking your email.

In the first instance, I think it's vindictive to report him without confronting him first. Secondly, I don't think that it's worth jepordizing your career over since you (a) don't have any evidence and (b) don't know for certain that clients were being billed directly off the timesheets.

 

[COEngineeer]

I agree with fransesca. Every project has a budget limit on the contract. As long as he maintains the budget as much as the contract, its all good.

 

[graybeach]

Grubbyky,
I agree with Francesca that you should let this go, for your own sake. But I absolutely think that messaging timesheets is a despicable practice. For one, in the public sector timesheets are often subject to audit by the various agencies, particularly for cost plus types of projects. Another problem is that this is very demoralizing for the project manager whose project is getting the bogus charges. Luckily I have never had this done to my projects. Good thing because I would not put up with this, would make a lot of noise and probably get myself fired.

 

[EddyC]

Timesheet "massaging" has been the norm in the 2 consultants that I have worked for. I view it as a form of "creative accounting". Don't even worry one bit about it. In your career you will see far, far more unethical behavior that this timesheet business. In 10 years you will be wondering why you thought that timesheets were a problem after everytime else that you will experience.

 

[BigInch]

Frankly I'm shocked that 2 responders apparently agree and see nothing wrong with this practice, without knowing any additional details at all. You guys can't be sure its one of those "it all comes out in the wash things". Grubbyky is sufficiently upset about this, so I would assume he certainly thinks its gone past the point where he, at least, thinks the practice was not fair to the clients involved.

Discuss this with the owner? Why? That's like going to the "Hole in the Wall" and asking Sundance to return the money to the Union Pacific Railroad. I see nothing coming from that strategy. There is no requirement for Grubbyky to confront the purp and discuss this with him, and possibly create a "situation" in the process. If public funds are involved and you know that this practice occured, you have a public duty to report it directly to the officials responsible for those funds. And actually, If you don't, you could be considered an accomplice too.

Evidence? In this situation Grubbyky has no responsibility to be presenting anyone with evidence. That is the job of the investigation board or the police. If he knows this is going on, he must report it with or without evidence.

As long as you don't go over the project budget? What has budget got to do with a correct and proper bill? What do you do on a cost+ project? What's the limitation there? I sincerely hope "COE" isn't short for Corps of Engineers.

My clients see and sign my timesheet.

Grubbyky, if you do have a sense of moral responsibility towards something you know is definately wrong and are outraged sufficiently to the point where you feel you must do something, (not in a spirit of revenge), you should file a complaint, perhaps with the registration board, or with the public officials in your area that are responsible for looking into those matters. If they throw your complaint away, you still know YOU did the right thing.

So what's the deal? Did you guys work for Enron or something?

BigInch-born in the trenches.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[francesca]

BigInch,

You have (Petroleum) next to your name, so I'm assuming you're not a civil engineer. In my experience working in civil/surveying companies, timesheets are for internal accounting purposes only. I have never worked somewhere where exact timesheet hours are billed to a client. It's not the same thing as a direct contract worker relationship.

Yes, lieing on a timesheet is wrong, but if nobody is injured in the process, where is the harm? Timesheets have nothing to do with a company's profit and loss, either. Profit and loss accounting uses payroll, not employee productive hours. Your comparison to Enron is a bit of a stretch, though I appreciate it was made in jest.

 

[EddyC]

My employer's accounting is similar to what Fran described. The jobs that we do on Time & Materials are small ones and are infrequent. The timesheet "juggling" that goes on around here is a way to keep the owner happy. The owner prefers to see that all jobs are profitable, rather than a mix of some that are highly profitable and others that are not profitable at all. As a "worker bee" it makes no difference to me as I am on salary. And like Fran said, it doesn't cause any physical injury.

 

[BigInch]

Francesca,

No & Yes

No=In my previous life I was a Texas Reg PE in Structural and worked for 2 large "civil" companies in Houston, Turner, Collie & Braden, and Lockwood, Andrews & Newnam. I didn't see it going on there.

Yes= For the last 20+ years I traded in "TCB" for things like "BTC", Baku, Tbilisi-Ceyhan. I appreciate a good sense of humor.

BigInch-born in the trenches.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[fattdad]

I would never tell somebody to revise their time sheet - it's wrong. I hear what the other folks are saying, but in the final analysis even on a lump sum project documenting the actual hours spent on the job documents the project history that can be use to set the fee for the next project. It just makes good business sense to document the actual hours. On a time and materials project it would likely be seen as fraud.

I also wonder how it would be handled if you were brought in to litigation and folks looked at the time sheet records wherein it was determined that you altered these records. I'd say, there'd be some tall explaining to do.

I've always (well since 1977) documented my actual time on projects give or take a few for the coffee pot, or other daily interruptions (like this forum - ha).

f-d

 

[BigInch]

You could probably forget about getting registered in that state.

Fattdad, I didn't mean to imply things are entirely black or white either. Relax, "reasonable and customary" labor expense includes "coffee break", "afternoon "tea", a 4:15 asprin, and one maybe two short phone calls to the "significant other" and all clients expect to have those "reasonable" items included in their bill. I'd even include these forums, under a thread title related to the work you are doing, but not all, whereas personal e-mails, etc. etc., well that's another story, isn't it?

BigInch-born in the trenches.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[Maury]

I do work for a civil/surveying consultant and disagree that time sheets are only for internal use. Many of our projects are billed on a time basis and alteration of the time sheets may amount to fraud. There are times when we need to document site visits or meetings and we need to have the timesheets consistent with reports or meeting notes.

 

[COEngineeer]

Changing timesheet at our office is more for billable hrs. Sometime the drafters have to work on projects that went over budget so we cant bill their time. It is not fair they cant get bonus for their time so we increase their time on other projects that is under budget so their billable % is higher, hence better bonus.

 

[TDAA]

The belief that shifting hours to make all projects appear profitable is very short sighted and foolish. As was said, you should bill what was done to see what you should budget for the next. Perhaps you are not profitable on a certain type of project, or perhaps a person is consistently not profitable, or maybe it is a certain client. When you move it around, you have no way to tell. Heck, you could be missing revenue for legitimate overages.

If you take the time to look at why the particular jobs are loosing money, you will be better off in the end. It is called learning from your mistakes. If you want to know how you are doing overall, then run a summary report for the year.

 

[rday]

I don't think revising time sheets is an appropriate thing to do.

It was stated that they are used for internal accounting only (true on lump sum jobs), but those revisions can distort that same internal accounting. Internal record keeping can be important in future bidding and assessing work performance among other things.

As far as hourly employees, their performance assessment relevent to billable hours should not hinge on whether a project has gone over budget. Cost control is the PMs job.

In the above cases, if the company wants to massage time sheets, it's really their loss.

For time and materials jobs, like work we do on government contracts which bill hourly time straight off the timesheet; massaging a timesheet could be considered theft.

 

[BigInch]

Stealing from Peter to pay Paul, leaves Paul happy, but amounts to theft from Peter, no matter how you look at it. It doesn't matter if Peter is a private individual or company or a public service. If Peter is a public service, you're not only stealing from Peter, but from each and everyone. I don't see the confusion.

Just as an added bonus, in many places, if you report fraud against a public entity and a sucessful case is prosecuted, you may be entitled to collect a sizable percentage of the penalties assessed as well.



BigInch-born in the trenches.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[DRC1]

So let me get this straght - I hire your firm to work on a billable hour basis and you give me rates that you bill out. You under estimate a project and a PM (probbably the guy who made the budget) blows the estimate. So rather than a) sucking it up and calling the owner to get an increase, or b) eating the loss, the choices are cheating the guy who did all of the gut work out of some compensation or cheating me by inflating the estimate and billings on my project so no one gets hurt? As a client I may not be as accepting about that behavior.
If you work half a day and that includes a couple of cups of coffee and a call from the wife I don't have a problem with that. If you work half a day for me and half a day for the other project and I pick up the bill for both - That's fraud.
Grubbyky You will find fights you can win and fights you can't. Very few of the ones you can't are worth fighting. This is one of those you should walk away from. Learn from it and resolve to deal fairly with those who trust you with their buisness.

 

[EddyC]

Just as a clarification, like most of the responders I too feel that timesheet "modification" is not right either, but I don't make the rules where I work. It's their way or the highway. From what I've seen here for the past 6 years, it's low on their list of unethical deeds.

 

[fattdad]

quote from DRC1: Grubbyky You will find fights you can win and fights you can't. Very few of the ones you can't are worth fighting. This is one of those you should walk away from. Learn from it and resolve to deal fairly with those who trust you with their buisness.

I think that's the correct resolution: Pick your battles. Take the high road. If it doesn't pass the stink test than it's not right and you should move on. Now that you are in a better place, I'd just chalk it up to life's lessons and move on. Hopefully you can learn from your new colleagues and they agree with your perspective on business matters such as these.

f-d

 

[Qshake]

Timesheet fudging is not tolerated where I work and since we work for the government, we are routinely audited.

Just because a project has a limit doesn't mean that it has to be met. Some projects finish below budgets and others over. When the budgets are over and there is a good reason like scope was increased, the client and firm should agree on a new ceiling. If not, oh well. Fudging time sheets isn't going to win the day since "it's only legal if you get caught" then someday you'll get caught and what a big fine that will be....even losing your license to do business. Most certainly your credibility as a company....what client wants to work with a suspect company....next thing you know, we didn't really need that stability check anyway....I can save some time there and bill that out as having checked it. Nutty.



Regards,
Qshake

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