I recently quit working for a client that uses modified shipping containers as the structural "skeleton" for various structures. As a sub-contractor, I developed FEM models, designed a million different details, produced construction documents and provided construction administration for this now successful start up for over 3 years. I requested release from a non compete non disclosure agreement, they refused, so I quit, which starts a one year clock ticking until I am "allowed" to design buildings with containers again, which is fine, I need a break. To the point though, for the life of me, I can't figure out what it is that I did that could really be considered "proprietary". Nothing was patented, to my knowledge. These guys seem to think that I possess some big secret. Anyone out there ever been in a similar situation. If I design a connection for someone as a sub-contractor, do they own that specific connection design forever, if they don't patent it. Even patents expire.
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What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
- Thread starter vato
- Start date
connectegr
Structural
As I mentioned earlier, I think your limit is in providing similar services to a competitor. If tomorrow you are designing Walmarts, there can be no conflict of interest or competition with your previous "employer". I don't think you can solicit business from their competitors or develop your own competitive product. I think the proprietary products I mentioned earlier are very different than the services you provided. It sounds like your relationship with your previous employer is soring. Some effort to patch this relationship may be beneficial. A happy ex-client is much less likely to pursue a non-compete claim. Be patient, 1 year is a very short requirement. My employment contract with key employes requires a 5 year non-complete. It is my experience that these clauses have to provide mutual benefit. In our case a bonus is included in the contract. I think others have mentioned that independent contractors have certain advantages to the client. Limited liability, no benefits, unemployment, disability, etc. But you may consider other advantages, your own boss, some control of your schedule and priorities, and some ability to negotiate your rates. But, overall the professional and ethical responsibilities are the same, whether salaried or contracted. Commitment to schedules, completing assignments, and reasonable notifications are expected equally regardless of the terms. If you are not meeting your clients expectations the non-compete may be their simplest way of causing you problems. If they have an attorney on staff, it will always cost you more to prove your innocence. Threading your license requires substantial effort to solicit a board review. In 20 years I have never seem anyone's license revoked. In a few cases fines and temporary suspensions have followed what could have been considered gross negligence.
IMHO repairing your relationship with your client will go a long way. Again good luck.
IMHO repairing your relationship with your client will go a long way. Again good luck.
I am no lawyer but:
Are the designs you provided the same as any reasoble engineer would do it in the same situatio. If yes the I cannot see how it is proprietary information.
Is the idea of using the shipping containers yours or your clients. If it is your clients idea then I can see how they could justify the idea as proprietary information.
I cannot see how a non compete could be used to prevent you practicing engineering and excercising your engineering knowledge.
But as I said I am not a lawyer.
That said, you would have a very volatile business if it was based purely on one singe unoriginal idea. Use the year to expand your spread of projects and clientelle and this will give you a good background upon which to explore the possibilities of your own ideas.
Are the designs you provided the same as any reasoble engineer would do it in the same situatio. If yes the I cannot see how it is proprietary information.
Is the idea of using the shipping containers yours or your clients. If it is your clients idea then I can see how they could justify the idea as proprietary information.
I cannot see how a non compete could be used to prevent you practicing engineering and excercising your engineering knowledge.
But as I said I am not a lawyer.
That said, you would have a very volatile business if it was based purely on one singe unoriginal idea. Use the year to expand your spread of projects and clientelle and this will give you a good background upon which to explore the possibilities of your own ideas.
IMO, nothing you did could be considered proprietary. Heck, we are a jury of your peers in the business and nobody has yet to say this is proprietary, and I would not see a mediator/jury seeing it any other way. Legally I know these things are very hard to prove and most attorneys don't touch them unless they are pretty clear cut or involve a lot of money.
Connect's example was one I was thinking of when I first read your post. I think to prove something is patentable or even proprietary there has to a level of uniqueness and sophistication above and beyond what a typical solution may be. Otherwise, Connect would have patented every moment and unique connection he has ever designed. His side plate example shows you what is probably required to get a structural detail patented, it is way above and beyond your standard connection and there was presumably a lot of testing involved as you could not rely on standard calcs. Well even AISC's shear connection design relies on significant testing, but they do not trademark their work thank goodness...
I have designed all kinds of connections that I thought were just awesome, but truth is they have all been used before. Give several structural engineers the same problem and you'll probably get the same 2-3 details. Reinforcing these containers using HSS, plates, extra welds, and developing these details are a normal part of that type of business and probably similar solutions that other engineers are using for other companies. We all have typical details in our libraries for situations we encounter all of the time, and they are all probably pretty similar.
Now you cannot go down the street to company B who is doing the same thing and divulge everything you learned, at least not for a year (non-disclosure AND non-compete violation). In that unique business I don't even see that being an issue, there probably is no company B down the street. I would also think legally any details in CAD, any actual calcs or FEA models are THEIR property, they paid you for that work product and they own it. That does not mean you have to submit to a Men in Black mind eraser device, but you'd have to recreate that physical work (over this coming year, you have the time). I did not forget the details all my previous companies used, I simply recreated them and calc'd them out for my own. This is how structural engineering as a profession works.
NOW- I will dream up an example. This company had you develop some type of connection system that to everyone's knowledge had never been done before, especially not by your competitors. You do calcs, FEA, etc., and then you guys go in the lab and test this design to prove it works. Now you have something proprietary and patentable I would think, and this would be completely off limits. Now if they did not patent it, and one year went by, and you got clearance from an attorney, then....
Like everyone else said, consult an attorney, tread lightly for a year, and use it as pencil sharpening and idea time... I think the non-compete portion of the contract is what keeps you from doing this type of work for a year more than the non-disclosure.
Connect's example was one I was thinking of when I first read your post. I think to prove something is patentable or even proprietary there has to a level of uniqueness and sophistication above and beyond what a typical solution may be. Otherwise, Connect would have patented every moment and unique connection he has ever designed. His side plate example shows you what is probably required to get a structural detail patented, it is way above and beyond your standard connection and there was presumably a lot of testing involved as you could not rely on standard calcs. Well even AISC's shear connection design relies on significant testing, but they do not trademark their work thank goodness...
I have designed all kinds of connections that I thought were just awesome, but truth is they have all been used before. Give several structural engineers the same problem and you'll probably get the same 2-3 details. Reinforcing these containers using HSS, plates, extra welds, and developing these details are a normal part of that type of business and probably similar solutions that other engineers are using for other companies. We all have typical details in our libraries for situations we encounter all of the time, and they are all probably pretty similar.
Now you cannot go down the street to company B who is doing the same thing and divulge everything you learned, at least not for a year (non-disclosure AND non-compete violation). In that unique business I don't even see that being an issue, there probably is no company B down the street. I would also think legally any details in CAD, any actual calcs or FEA models are THEIR property, they paid you for that work product and they own it. That does not mean you have to submit to a Men in Black mind eraser device, but you'd have to recreate that physical work (over this coming year, you have the time). I did not forget the details all my previous companies used, I simply recreated them and calc'd them out for my own. This is how structural engineering as a profession works.
NOW- I will dream up an example. This company had you develop some type of connection system that to everyone's knowledge had never been done before, especially not by your competitors. You do calcs, FEA, etc., and then you guys go in the lab and test this design to prove it works. Now you have something proprietary and patentable I would think, and this would be completely off limits. Now if they did not patent it, and one year went by, and you got clearance from an attorney, then....
Like everyone else said, consult an attorney, tread lightly for a year, and use it as pencil sharpening and idea time... I think the non-compete portion of the contract is what keeps you from doing this type of work for a year more than the non-disclosure.
- Thread starter
- #24
Thanks again to all.
I can't fully express my appreciation for everyone's sincere advice on this.
a2mfk-Yes, that is exactly how I have been feeling. I did come up with some really incredible solutions to some really funky problems, but it was straight up structural engineering. And I'm sure if the problem were given to someone else, they would have ended up with a similar solution. There is a chance that they have pursued patents on some of my ideas, but doubtful. The proprietary engineering method for them was to hire some guy on the internet and claim his work as there own, I'm not joking, and they will miss me.
I have no problems taking a break from containers for a year. As I mentioned earlier, I put the "great" ideas in my back pocket as I saw this day coming. And it takes me about half an hour to construct an FEM from scratch for a container, so no biggy there.
I'm sure not happy about giving them any files beyond what they already have, but if I do eventually get paid, then I suppose that will happen. They have a long history of paying when they want if at all, which makes their attitude that much more annoying. I actually requested the noncomp/nondisclose be dropped when they were 8 months behind on invoices and they blew up like yosemite sam, so I waited another year and a half till they paid it off at their leisure. I hope my interactions with future clients aren't this dramatic. Thanks again to all for the time on this.
I can't fully express my appreciation for everyone's sincere advice on this.
a2mfk-Yes, that is exactly how I have been feeling. I did come up with some really incredible solutions to some really funky problems, but it was straight up structural engineering. And I'm sure if the problem were given to someone else, they would have ended up with a similar solution. There is a chance that they have pursued patents on some of my ideas, but doubtful. The proprietary engineering method for them was to hire some guy on the internet and claim his work as there own, I'm not joking, and they will miss me.
I have no problems taking a break from containers for a year. As I mentioned earlier, I put the "great" ideas in my back pocket as I saw this day coming. And it takes me about half an hour to construct an FEM from scratch for a container, so no biggy there.
I'm sure not happy about giving them any files beyond what they already have, but if I do eventually get paid, then I suppose that will happen. They have a long history of paying when they want if at all, which makes their attitude that much more annoying. I actually requested the noncomp/nondisclose be dropped when they were 8 months behind on invoices and they blew up like yosemite sam, so I waited another year and a half till they paid it off at their leisure. I hope my interactions with future clients aren't this dramatic. Thanks again to all for the time on this.
vato,
ouch that had to hurt the finances!
I would think that the length of time to get paid could be a cause to claim that the contract between you was broken. but once again - not a lawyer.
The only thing I would say is dont wait that long to get paid next time.
In a years time I really hope you drive them out of business.
ouch that had to hurt the finances!
I would think that the length of time to get paid could be a cause to claim that the contract between you was broken. but once again - not a lawyer.
The only thing I would say is dont wait that long to get paid next time.
In a years time I really hope you drive them out of business.
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