turbocor compressors

[skyhooks1]

does anyone have experience with the turbocor compressors? i'm currently looking for a project to use them but am a little cautious about useing it as it is a new product without a proven track record.

any comments please.

 

[StrionAir]

I've never used their product, but I did meet them at the AHR show last month, and I have reviewed their literature. I've been impressed with all that I've learned. If their product performs as well in the field as it does in the lab, it should be a home run.

 

[absrbrtek]

Ive talked to a few manufacturers and contractors using them. They had them scramble on cold startups. The contractor put in 2, 1 failed in a day. The manufacturer has had several fail on cold starts after it sits overnite. Its a good technology but needs a few bugs worked out of it.

 

[skyhooks1]

cheers absrbrtek, i'm after some comments from people who have installed them, i'm in melbourne (Aust), there have been a few installed here but the owners are saying little. i've worked out a payback of about 6 years against a York so in concept they are great but i think they aren't telling us the full story.

 

[gaffatape]

absrbrtek, those are some interesting points you raised. From what i know turbocor compressors are now being used in australia, europe, and north america. i'm from melbourne, australia...where abouts did they have the problems with cold starts, and where did the 1/2 fail.
thanks for the info.

 

[superbrida]

absrbrtek!!
What are " cold startup"????

 

[absrbrtek]

Cold startup is sitting on a roof in low ambient conditions overnight.
The reason for the failure within 24 hrs was a bad diode in the bearing sensor circuit causing it to fail. Turbocor had a new compressor the next day and its been fine since. I believe thier are about 200 currently in use in the US. The failure rate seems to be low.
I was just at a presentation by Turbocor. It was very interesting. A few of our members have installed them on retrofit jobs. The only real maintanence to them is the capacitor bank which needs to be replaced every 5 years. They are not field repairable except the electronics or guide vanes.

 

[gaffatape]

absrbrtek,
How low are the ambient temperatures that caused problems on startup? I guess the problems weren't in australia? Any idea where they were exactly, and what do you mean by caused them to scramble (earlier post). Did they start up at all? Is this an ongoing problem as far as you are aware? Did they address this issue at the presentation they gave? I've heard the presentation they give at shows, and it doesn't cover this, was it at ASHRAE or ACCA that you heard it?

 

[absrbrtek]

Gaffatape
I was talking with the Mammoth rep and he told me about the cold startup problems on some of the RTUs they were field testing using Turbocors. I dont know the specific details on the failure but they atributed it to being in the low ambient conditions. We are located in the North Eastern USA. I do not know if it was resolved but would have to think it has been as Turbocor is very interested in why their comps fail and resolving the issues. If I hear anything new I will post it.

 

[Centrif]

The Turbocor compressors are nifty Hi Tech machines but they are short on performance. At full load, they barely meet the ASHRAE minimum performance guidelines for water cooled (or air cooled for that matter) compressors. At part load conditions their performance drops off sharply. In addition they have a very limited operating envelope. A company in New England designed the aerodynamic stage end of the machine. They spent several years developing a complete understanding of the compressor map. While this sounds nice... this effort was actually taken because the machines do not like surge or stall. The Mag bearings cannot handle the surge loads.
Basically their performance per dollar is less than existing technology. I expect that this product will improve as Turbocor gains field experience. They certainly made a good first attempt however.

 

[ChillerGuy]

The compressor is much better suited for water cooled duty then air cooled for efficiency and performance. Compressor will struggle with cooling on the inverter on inverted start due to low lift at start-up.

Great part load performance with decent full load performance within the 60-75 ton range.

Electronics are getting better with 3 in 1 board.

 

[basenji]

Skyhooks
The company I work for OK'D me to purchase 2 compressors for a retrofit, the 1st in the world. I designed the retrofit and used our in- house personnel to carry out the work. Both machines are operating flawlessly,one running 12 months, one for 7 months. Their performance is brilliant. They are remote aircooled on a Trane DX system with parallel chillers. There used to be 4x R600 compressors, now 2 Turbos. The backup and assistance from Turbocor, Boronia Technologies, and Multi Air Australia has been 2nd to none. We have since purchased 2 more compressors. If you want, come and have a look. We are in Newcastle NSW.

 

[basenji]

To Centrif
I have to very strongly disagree with some of your comments, and am able to back up my comments with 18 months of personal experience with 2 of these machines, with 2 more currently being installed. Our aircooled turbos were commonly operating at around 190 suction, and up to 1500 discharge (R134A),down to 550 KPA. I forced our first compressor (artificially) to begin a surge,so it just shut down, and its monitoring program told me why and when.
Their onboard conrols will rectify surge situations before they occur, anyhow. As for low load performance, our machines regularly have long overnight runs down to 12- 13 amps/ Phase, leaving compressors 1/2 their size for dead.

 

[ClydeMule]

I have a potential job coming up, the application is for an aircooled chiller, 35 F 30% EG 100F ambient. Design would have 25F SST, and 125 F sct.

Can this compressor handle this? I have been to their website but their literature is a little fluffy.

Gracias,


Clyde

 

[Centrif]

To Basenji -
I am glad you have had good performance with your machines. However, it is very difficult to perform a thorough evaluation on a unit installed in the field...you just don't have enough control over the operating conditions on the unit. Do you have calibrated water flow meters in the field installation? How are you determining their capacity is as claimed? How about the energy balance? Calibrated Power measurements? Testing on ARI certified test blocks is about the only way to put them through their paces in a controlled manner. McQuay has licensed their compressors. Perhaps a check with them would be enlightening. The onboard surge map of the compressor does keep it out of surge, but it limits the application range of the machine. It is a nice little compact unit, no one is denying that.

 

[basenji]

To Centrif
We did, as a matter of fact, engage the services of some rather knowlegable people with some expensive- looking instruments to certify that both machines did, in fact perform as claimed. Completely satisfied, we then purchased 2 more.
I saw a McQuay compressor at the ARBS Exhibition in Melbourne recently, it was a cut away demo. Is this the model to which you refer?

 

[Centrif]

To basenji
I know that McQuay has licensed the Turbocor compressor but I am not sure if they have started to display it at shows yet. McQuay has licensed other compressor technology from small companies before. For a while they were using a single screw design from Bernard Zimmer...perhaps they still are using it. What is the noise like on your Turbocor machines? I have never heard them in a field installation. I should think they would be very smooth and quiet. There is a small company in the US which is looking at the Turbocor machines...I think I heard that Mammoth Inc. may use the technology on its rooftops.

 

[basenji]

To Centrif
The noise generated at full load is stated to be 70db@ 1 metre. I have used a mobile telephone 200-300 millimetres from the "noisy" side of of the machine. The person at the other end (of the phone) was unaware that the machine was operating. The noise is similar to that of a very quiet domestic vacuum cleaner. At loads up to,say,50%, the compressor is difficult to hear over the chilled water pump. Vibration in the compressor or discharge line is almost undetectable. I am in Australia, I dont know what is happening in America as far as who is using the machines, but, the more, the better.
Regards
Basenji

 

[Centrif]

To Basenji -

Thanks for the information. It is always nice to hear from someone who actually uses the equipment rather than just the OEM. The user usually has an unbiased viewpoint. The OEM's always have some sort of agenda or propoganda to sort through.
Again Thanks..
Centrif