No novelty, society of old decided had to hold reins of building malpractice. That what adjudicated be proper is entirely another thing, about what first we would have to have sound information and even so differeent opinion unavoidably would appear.
The swift and severe punishments should not be unexpected, considering China's track record. This should cause some of the Western construction and design firms who clamour to be included in China's boom to have second thoughts.
Almost sounds like a remaking of the baby formula problem. Since Chinese citizens were injured or died the punishment was severe and fairly quick. - Unfortunately it was not the quick enough. The top executives were put to death and the other executive were sentenced for a few years in prison, which could be worse than death. If it had been swifter, the next generation of executives in the organization may have gotten the word since they were later convicted of the same malfeasance. - Things are changing faster than such a huge country can adapt to and establish liability limits for businesses and designers.
I saw a beam for a 1 ton monorail in a Chinese plant that was attached continuously to a 16" deep beam that connected to a major parallel structural beam above it by 8x8 columns (2' long) at 4' on center. It was designed by an American educated engineer for a joint ownership design "company" doing work for a joint ownership owner and obviously never failed, so there was no punishment.
There is a big problem regarding the new Chinese design and construction firms, since they are a combined Chinese and foreign ownership and the traditions, rules and liability have not bee firmly established. Hong Kong could have some different problems where the "foreign management" could actually be some "good ole boys" from across the bay.
The manufacturing companies also have mixed ownership and just manufacture to the customer/exporter/marketer's specifications and leave the use and application of the products use to the exporter since you never know where they will be sold.
They are slowly adapting to many other international design and material standards, but language and translations seem to pose a problem.
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
Hello concrete masonry. Sorry, I don't have a good feel for the loads and structures here, so I need some explanation.
"I saw a beam for a 1 ton monorail in a Chinese plant that was attached continuously to a 16" deep beam that connected to a major parallel structural beam above it by 8x8 columns (2' long) at 4' on center. It was designed by an American educated engineer for a joint ownership design "company" doing work for a joint ownership owner and obviously never failed, so there was no punishment."
8x8 columns at 4' OC sounds pretty generous for a 1-ton live load, or am I not understanding what it looks like?
It looked so obviously rediculous enough to be cautious in my questioning of "who and why" did the design. When you are in China, you have to be polite and seek out other professionals to give you their confidential opinions. I have learned that it is a possible for many small details to go through the cracks.
It was an over-designed structural solution to a very common arrangement with different solutions and member sizes.
When giving a seminar the next day the engineer asked many good questions that shows that communication and understanding is the key.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
You can have a situation where people can do something wrong with very lax punishment until they get unlucky, at which point you nail their hide to the wall. That, to me, seems the wrong way to legislate and enforce laws.
For example, suppose you drive drunk here in the US. It's not well enforced, and you'll hear of people who have been convicted a dozen or more times. But if 100 people drive drunk, and one runs over somebody, that one will be in prison. And really, they were all doing the same thing. That seems to be the situation they're having with this in China, and drastic punishment of the one unlucky person that gets caught can never compensate for the other 99 allowed to do what they wish.
Don't ever get caught driving drunk in China. It is almost as bad as being caught in Amsterdam, where marijuana can be legally purchased.
You have to look at the local laws and determination to catch up with other countries in the rapidly changing international economy. In the end, the liability for a corporation lies with the formally empowered executives and the employed professionals that are responsible with the analysis and design of products/materials.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
If a builder has built a house for a man and has not made his work sound, and the house which he has built has fallen down and so caused the death of the householder, that builder shall be put to death."Code of Hammurabi, c.2040 B.C.
Dick - Aside from Tsingtao (made in the former German colony that's now spelled Qingdao) their beer and wine aren't worth drinking anyway.
Seriously, though, I know an American expat in China, who knows a European who did jail time for a car accident where he may not even have been at fault, in our western way of looking at things. The expat's American wife rides her bike in city traffic, but is afraid to drive for that and other reasons, and having seen traffic in Beijing, Chongqing, and other cities, I probably wouldn't do either one.
Designing and construction in China is indeed a real challenge since there are rapidly trying to play catch-up even though many of the engineers are U.S. educated. The material standards, codes and education is difficult with difference in the languages and the alphabet makes even casual translations impossible.
In the past 10 years I have seen the changes, it is amazing, but will take some time since they have at it for a few years. Fortunately, they do not have deal with government regulations on the professiona/fields that are pinpointed or targeted areas.
The lure of the 9 story shopping centers (surrounded completely by connected 9 level parking ramps) with 1000 shops definitely does have an appeal that induces future changes. The old city layouts are defintely a challenge, especially for a country that supposedly buys more Buicks than the U.S. (according to a GM marketing person)in an effort to overtake Mercedes and BMW sales in the largest auto market in the world.
A huge city like Chongqing (aka "Chung Kin") with a huge population on a horrible geology/geography divided by a river and has an airport 30-40 km north of town where you cannot see the end because of the hill in the middle is an example of the problems inherited from history and lack of suitable property for man, women and children. It is a city of 7,000,000 and a municipality of about 32,000,000 but still has a largely rural population awaiting changes and more power for A/C.
I agree with you about the wine and beer except for the beer in Harbin.
The country is fascitating and has many challenges for technology, design and construction. The economic forces and shrinking of the world compound the growth potential.
It takes disasters to make use look at the reasons for failures and to understand why.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
