Structural fee for existing building investigation 5

[CBSE]

A project has come to fruition and it involves attempting to turn an existing (1) story steel structure into an essential facility (or building new if needed). Before moving forward with the conversion, the client would like me to investigate it to see how much work it would take to convert it if it can be converted at all.

What is a reasonable fee for a feasibility study like this?

Building layout:

Built in 1996
Currently I believe the risk category is III (a bank used to reside here)
Purely rectangular in shape
12,000 sqft
(1) story with approximately 20ft eve height (just a guess from google maps).

I am picking up the plans tomorrow. From the google map image, it appears that it may be a Pre-manufactured metal building, but in the event it isn't, an idea as to where to start with a fee would be helpful. If it's a pre-manufactured metal building I would probably try to contact that manufacturer for there input and see if they actually still have a file for the design.

Thanks for your help

 

[rowingengineer]

I find it helps if you do some analysis before quoting, I just do a quick check on the main frames, purlins and sheeting, takes two hours allows me to estimate hours fairly well. I wouldn't use %'s as you can come unstuck, I would also break the fee down into stages, generally I try to only fix the investigation side and then provide ranges for the remained and then update all values after each stage.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[connect2]

Well you have plans. That's good if they built what was on the plans.
We never give a quote past a 'Preliminary' Condition assessment. This is a visual only investigation, verification of the existing plans, find out if there are any previously written assessment reports, history and then some calculations on the principle structural elements to ball park. Foundations who knows. Reinforced concrete who knows. Lots of stuff is buried either in the ground or behind Architectural. But potential problems areas will pop up and they get mentioned as requiring a detailed investigation in the Preliminary Condition Assessment Report.
THEN, we give a Detailed Condition Assessment proposal which may include, destructive, non-destructive testing, materials testing, test openings, geotechnical investigation etc., etc.,
ASCE 11 is a good Guideline for structural condition assessment of existing building.
Fee? We work out the man-hours and staffing requirements, travel, paper clips.....throw the ball up in the air and take a swing.
We generally seem to under estimate our preliminary assessemnt costs, start getting into line with the detailled investigation costs, and finally are up to speed with the repair/construction drawings

 

[dhengr]

CBSE:
When I’m selling nuts and bolts or 2x4's, I know the cost of production and my mark-up are and I can put a price on them. When I don’t know what I’m going to see in the way of existing structure and what we might run into in the way of problems with the existing structure, or what it is liable to be used for in the future, I just don’t know how to put a fixed price on that. You are working for your client, and their must be some trust there, that you will do what’s best for him, without runnin up the bill, for the fun of it. If he can’t deal with that, hourly rate, I don’t know how to deal with him. It’s his project and problem, the only thing I have to gain is a few hours of work, which he can cut-off at any time he doesn’t think he’s getting is moneys worth. I shouldn’t have to gamble on what I might find or have to deal with, too give him a good sound engineering assessment of the situation.

 

[steellion]

We follow connect2's procedure almost to a T. You can't estimate effort if you don't know how extensive the effort will be. Try to split it into two phases: an evaluation phase and a design phase.

 

[CELinOttawa]

A star for Connect2; Hit the nail square on the head.

We insist upon a two stage investigation, and openly show the client the waivers of liability we will use in the report. We then discuss approximate cost for the removal of each waiver.

We are not unhappy to see a client walk away on a job like this. Not only do you need to be afraid of the significant potential liability, you are invariably going to be asked to "just" change this or that, and at that point if you have any lack of information you're not going to be able to design safely enough to satisfy a competent design.

 

[CBSE]

Thanks for all the responses. I did some more investigation and it is a metal pre-engineered metal building that is still in business. I have a good relationship with the contractor that built the building and am getting as-builts from them.

I will break it into (3) phases:

1) Site visit, plan gathering
2) Metal building analysis from the manufacturer to see if it can be converted. Preliminary foundation calcs
3) Full blown design

I'm basing the fee off of how many days I think I can get the work done at this point.

Thanks for your help.

 

[TDIengineer]

You mentioned essential facility, and now bringing it up to code. Will your local building department expect material strengths be verified? Do you really have grade 40 or 60 rebar? What is the compression strength of your concrete?

Not sure if you are in a high seismic zone, but to bring a pre-engineered building up to current code sounds extremely messy. Maybe I am just being a pessimist. You have both wind and seismic to re-check. Your diaphragm capacity may be very low and inadequate.

 

[CBSE]

Update:

The metal building guys don't think they have the building in their archives. I hadn't thought of checking with the local building department regarding testing and all that. I was going to go off the assumption that he material specified on the plans (if found) was adequate to assume for future rehabilitation.

I do agree, this could be a messy one and way more involved than initially thought.

 

[dhengr]

CBSE:
The original bldg. designer and manufacturer don’t have the plans and calcs. any longer. You have no idea what materials were used in these hybrid, variable cross section members. Every weld and member element has to be checked, and most of them won’t, by your and my methods. These bldgs. were designed to an older code, and are never designed and fab’ed. with one extra pound of loading, and every advantage is taken of any and all steel code allowances. They do not design and fab. these with future renovation in mind, let alone future upgraded codes, or the prospect that the bldg. importance factor might be upgraded. You can’t put enough hours in your budget for the headaches this job will cause. The owner wanted a cheap bldg., he paid for a cheap bldg., and he will never want to pay you for turning this sow’s ear into a silk purse.

 

[CELinOttawa]

Agree with dhengr. Get a serious retainer or let someone else lose their shirt on this one.

Note: Clients who are insisting the job go ahead should never object to a retainer following the "this one is very unique and will be cost in you significantly" discussion. Where they balk, expect to have trouble getting paid.

 

[CBSE]

Agreed, it's going to be quite the headache. The good news is that RISA has the ability to model tapered beams for these types of buildings.

I'm assuming it qualifies as an essential facility. It will be a State Police Crime Lab. I've been contemplating the validity of classifying it as essential today. Any input on that?

 

[CELinOttawa]

Ask the client. A police department is qualified to self-determine their facility's post-disaster essentialness...

 

[MJB315]

Are you sure that the original building was designed as a Category III structure? You mentioned that it was used as a bank, but if so-- I'm not sure if my mind would immediately jump to III. I would assume II, by default.

If so, and you need to jump to Category IV-- how do you propose to upgrade the components and cladding attachments for the 1.15x bump in load?

I agree with connect2's approach. Preliminary Condition Assessment first, refined fee estimates later. It has been our experience that you can pretty accurately gauge your preliminary fee based upon a strict scope (i.e. I will go out there for one day, I will do a desk review for one day, I will write a report for two days, I will handle misc. calls and meetings for one day, etc.) and provide the best product available based upon that effort. There's your fee, there's your Client's assessment.

If you try to round first base, and guess upfront at everything without knowing everything, you (and your Client) are likely to be unhappily surprised by something.

"We shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us." -WSC

 

[CBSE]

I'm not entirely sure on the category. It was originally a warehouse at I or II, then converted to a bank, so I was assuming it was bumped up. Either way I'm scheding a site visit to do field measurements and then go from there.

 

[connect2]

The other good thing about starting with a preliminary visual only condition assessment and then stepping it up to a detailed condition assessment is you can limit your liability in staged approach as well. For me it's not necessarily the fee that I get concerned about at least at the beginning, although that's important, it's the potential liability you start to take on ..... sooooo as we step up our knowledge of the structure, step up our investigation, we step up our fee and start transfering the liability back to the building Owner. Generally the Owners are co-operative and accept the increasing level of investigation and fee. We've only had a few occasions where they weren't and we've had to close the files and hand them over to a municipal building department and tell them to look after the file/problem. Structural Condition assessments however sometimes make me feel like the proverbial 'Lawyer ambulance/chaser' type. Hahaha some building you just walk into them and you can 'feel/smell' the problems so to speak.