Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit 2

[patprimmer]

A recent thread about some guy trying to justify disabling his ABS lead to the above topics being broached in an ad hock manner.

I have seen over the years many opinions and some statistics on the complex issues raised above.

I have serious doubts about some opinions and data, and wonder what the truth is.

I will throw up a bunch of open questions, or provocative statements to catalyse some discussion, and hopefully identify some fact and myth.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
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[patprimmer]

EnglishMuffin

I would be concerned with anything much more than a speedo, and maybe a tacho being in a heads up display.

I have seen several fatal accidents in circumstances where speedo watching was probably a major contributing factor.

The situation was, a short section of a scenic riverside drive, on the outskirts of Sydney. The drive went through about 1 kilometre of national park. The accident record on this stretch was no worse than average with an 80 kph speed limit, which was not regularly enforced, because the reasonably narrow, bumpy, undulating and winding road, with trees close to the verge, did not invite normal people to drive over the speed limit. I lived in the area for about 3 years with no fatalities on the section.

The speed limit was reduced to 60 kph, as a result of pressure from nature lovers, who felt that cars travelling at lower speeds might not kill as many birds, lizards, snakes nor Possums.

I never saw the figures for the before and after results re fatalities with wildlife, however there was suddenly a spate of fatal accidents, at least 2 of which involved mothers driving people mover type vehicles with children aboard. In the 2 incidences where I know some details, both drivers were travelling down a short but steep hill, with a left hand curve, with a bump mid curve. Slightly further downhill from the curve was a spot favoured by the highway patrol to set up speed traps.

I surmise, that the ladies, not being particularly skilled nor attentive drivers, but also being far from you typical petrol heads or hoons, became aware that they had built up speed while travelling down the hill, being aware of the strong possibility of a radar speed trap being around the corner, they looked at their speedo as they rounded the curve, they hit the bump with the brakes on. The Mums taxi type cars, probably had mediocre tyres, shock absorbers (dampers to some) and suspension design. They rebounded of the bump, into oncoming trucks, with the normal results of a head on collision between a 1 tonne van and a 30 tonne truck.

I suspect that if the limit was 80 kph, they would have been doing the same speed, maybe steadied on the brakes, but they would have had their eyes on the road, and not swerved into oncoming traffic.

I based some of this on my experience at the same spot. Being an incorrigible speedster at the time, I often came through that section of road at about 90 to 120 kph, and as I am quite experienced at the limits of adhesion, and a little beyond.

After the reduction in the limit, I tended to pretty well respect the limit because of the dramatically increased enforcement. Being aware of the trap, I braked heavily on the same bend, hit the bump, and fought to keep a well maintained Honda CRX on the correct side of the road. At the time I wondered how someone with less experience, less concentration and a less stable car, might have fared.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

patprimmer: Since race cars never have speedometers, or at least they didn't used to when I followed motor racing, it would seem that the only reason a skilled, or perhaps even an unskilled, driver would need one would be to avoid speeding tickets. But given that we are expected to refer to them, I would have thought that a heads up display would be preferable. It certainly slows me down.
I was recently reading the biography of Stirling Moss, who gave up motor racing after a tragic crash in the sixties. His incredible peripheral vision was damaged, and he found that he could no longer read the rev counter without taking his eyes of the road, which he found to be quite unacceptable.
By the way :
".......but also being far from you typical petrol heads or hoons...".
What, may I ask, is a hoon ? I ask merely because the context seems to imply that I might be one.

 

[ICman]

This has been an interesting thread. Watching the "cop" shows on TV, as well as driving thru both metropolitan and rural areas around the world for the last 35+ years, I've seen some really stupid drivers. Or at least their actions were stupid. Is it because they figure the safety equipment will protect them? I doubt it. Many of these cars don't have anything other than seat belts (which are rarely in use) or in such bad shape safety equipment probably wouldn't work anyway. Is it because they're driving an SUV? Maybe, but since they tower over the smaller vehicles, and I figure their drivers figure they will just "roll over them critters". Or, is it because many drivers just don't know a (better) way?

I consider myself a safe driver; one of those "above average" drivers Rod or Greg mentioned. I learned how to drive from my father, who was a travelling salesman, putting 100,000 miles on his car each year. I also learned from my uncle and brother (both professional OTR truck drivers), as well as in high school and in "driver training" schools put on by local BMW and Porsche clubs. Then, I ride a motorcycle almost daily, which calls for keen observation of other traffic to stay alive.

IMHO, few drivers pay attention to others on the road. The "ME" attitude prevails, at least here in the U.S. Add that to lack of intelligence, training, or just courtesy, and you've got a big problem. If that's the way younger drivers are taught, then that's the way they will drive as well.

"Safe" vehicles have been designed and built, but no one wants them. They take away some of the independence a vehicle provides. I think we need better education, better screening, and better law enforcement to reduce accidents.

Just my $0.02 ...

. . . Steve

 

[Brandnew]

Very interesting discussion!

The item that really seems to hit home for me is driver ATTITUDE. The "this is my lane" mentality seems to be frightenly too familar to me. No amount of gadgets or training will fight off someone trying to prove a point for the "principal of it".

For whatever reason many people think they "OWN" the road and have a "RIGHT" to be in that spot. Some people also appear to think someone is trying to "prove" something by driving faster. This attitude causes as much problems as anything.

It brings to mind a recent instance that I had: Driving on the interstate a p/u pulls over to pass another car as I'm approcahing from behind. I catch up, slow down and follow at a slow pace. As the p/u gets near the front of the car I pick up the pace, timing it so I'll be back "up to speed" when he changes lanes. I'm coming up, he signals to get over, I ease on the gas a little more. Then I see him look at me in his side mirror, signal goes off, and he stays in the "fastlane". I slow up, follow for a few seconds, have the co-pilot check the other lane..CLEAR. I signal, go around, and continue on a merry way. 1/4 mile up the road I check my rearview, he signals and gets over. I don't get it!?


It's interesting for me to look at the "this is my lane" attitude and look at speed limits. Even those drivers that will "share" their lane with you tend to be slow getting out of the way due to the speed (i.e won't speed up). While I will speed up to free up the road, I have been at times hesitant to do so in fear of getting "another" ticket. I suppose it's possible that the speed limits may encourage the "my lane" attitude that many have here in the states. "I'm going fast enough"


Another point that has bothered me for years is speed limits. I agree they are there for revenue but I can also see the purpose. The item about them that bothers me is who is usually targeted by them. Many cars that I see pulled over are sports cars while the mountain-sized SUV's go cruising by.

I myself drive a little on the fast side, I'm at that age I guess, and the one thing that never ceases to amaze me are the cars that pass me. I drive a track-preped german car set-up to cruise all day long on the autobahn. Cruising at 80mph on a rural Iowa interstate is a cake walk. Yet, 80-90% of the cars that pass me are SUV's OR cars that have been reinforced with duct tape. The larger the SUV the faster they are going. I'll give you one guess which car gets pulled over; I'll give you a hint, it's not them.

As I said, I can understand the purpose of speed limts but at some point common sense has to come in. Don't initially look for the sports car, the car built for the speed, look for the one that's "trail-rated" that isn't as capable at those speeds. Pulling over the sports cars first thing for speeding seems to be an oxy-moron.

Enough. That's bugged me for years.

 

[patprimmer]

A good friend of mine owns both a Porsche 911 Carrera and a Toyota Land Cruiser. When he wants to cruise, or impress a young lady, he takes the Porsche, but when he is in a hurry and will most probably be speeding, he takes the Toyota, because it reduces the chance of getting a ticket. I wonder what that does for the safety of himself and others?

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[GregLocock]

He's made the right decision for himself. If you don't roll it over then an SUV is pretty good at protecting its occupants. Since most rollovers are driver initiated, that is up to him.

Sadly the same cannot be said for the econo-shopper he might run into. Newton wrote the laws down.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[evelrod]

This thread is getting a bit long---I will try to make this my final comment on 'engineered safety' vs. 'driver stupidity'---

From this mornings "Californian" (San Diego North County Times)---Tuesday, May 25, 2004

"John S****, 61, of Murrieta was pronounced dead at 6:53 a.m. at Inland Valley Medical Center in Wildomar..."
"S**** was headed east on Clinton Kieth Road at an estimated 35 mph when, for an unknown reason, his Dodge Intrepid swerved and hit the south curb and he jerked the car back to the left, according to the California Highway Patrol report"
"Instead of braking, however, S**** accelerated, which sent the car airborne over the north edge of the road..."
"The Dodge flipped (into) a gully ejecting S****, who was not wearing his seat belt..."

In my humble opinion---

Ignorance can be cured through education---
Ability can be enhanced through proper training and practice---
Stupidity is life long and totally incurable---

'nuff said!

Rod

 

[patprimmer]

EnglishMuffin

Sorry I overlooked one of your questions.

A hoon is a reckless and aggressive driver, who is mostly teen aged male, often wears a baseball cap on backward when driving, participates in illegal street car racing in souped up noisy cars with an exaggerated race car look. They spin the wheels a lot to create smoke and noise, often quite deliberately to create attention. They also have a tendency to have their radios exceptionally loud.

The term will also be more lightheartedly applied to anyone who is more mature and should know better, who shows even a slight tendency to any one of the above characteristics.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[patprimmer]

I think Rod is right. This is to long, and got more responses with a greater variety than I anticipated. I should have asked the individual questions as separate threads.

Unfortunately it is almost entirely opinion, with little real supporting scientifically collected data.

As I agree with pretty well everything that has been said, but I was hoping that somewhere out there, you guys would have access to real data.

I have an appointment this morning, but i will try to summarise this evening

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Oh, I thought it might have had something to do with the current British Defense Secretary Geoffrey Hoon. I used to be a hoon a long time ago. Ah, those were the days. Even got thrown off Brands Hatch race track one evening for going too fast. (That was in the days when you could drive round the circuit in your road car on weekday evenings - but the trouble in my case, according to the circuit manager, was that they didn't have an ambulance at the ready). I never returned.

 

[lov2xler8]

This is kinda a late post, but I had a recent experience that feels relevant to this. I was out with a friend at a bar one night and after 3 hours and 2 drinks each, we left. This should put my bac at about .02. I am driving back on a small highway with 1 lane in each direction in my trans-am at about 60 mph, 5 mph over the limit but easily handled in that kind of car. As I finish pulling around a curve in the road, I am looking at a car in my lane in reverse backing down the highway. Luckily it was late and I just passed him on the opposite side of the road, but leaving a bar and rear-ending another car always looks bad on a police report.

Long story but, it proves other drivers desicions can end up putting you in a bad place. There has been alot of talk on this post about teaching more advanced skills before giving a driver a license, sometimes I think the basics don't sink in.

 

[ejit]

" - Initial "driver's ed" to get your first license. This is indisputably of value in reducing road accidents."
This was widely believed to be statistically accurate for several decades (beginning in the 1960s), and qualified for lower insurance rates, etc.
Until a comparison was done with students who requested the course, but either never actually enrolled, dropped out due to re-location, illness, money, etc.
Same accident rates.
The "safety" was entirely the result of a higher level of interest and awareness on the part of the prospective student, not any skills they acquired from the course.
How many other fictional and misleading "studies" have affected out lives?
BTW: I have attempted to discover which factors insurance companies use to determine rates, and was horrified to find that they only use the "politically correct" ones - that are socially acceptable.
The accident rate per mile difference among elderly women is really scary, but the AARP goes nuclear if this is used.